Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 178

Wed, 29 Aug 2007

• 1. Re: Lifnei Iver/Kanaus (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 2. Re: God Provides a Place to Flee... (Richard Wolpoe)
• 3. Re: Why is Milchemes Reshus allowed? (Richard Wolpoe)
• 4. Re: Lifnei Iver/Kanaus (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 5. Re: Lifnei Iver/Kanaus (Danny Schoemann)
• 6. Teshuva - postive or negative? (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 7. Subject: God Provides a Place to Flee... (Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org)
• 8. Mi Sheberach for a Non-Jew (Elliott Shevin)
• 9. Re: Teshuva - postive or negative? (David Riceman)
• 10. (no subject) (Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org)
• 11. Re: Mi Sheberach for a Non-Jew (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: Bishul achar shelo bederekh bishul (G"fay)

R' Doron Beckerman wrote:
> On page 297, the following appears:
> "Question: A Bachur has a radio in his room in Yeshiva, and his
> friend wants to break it and pay for it. Maran HaRav Shach zt"l
> once said that it is allowed for a child in his home to take
> his parents' radio and dispose of it.

I want to make sure I am understanding this. Does this mean that according to Rav Shach it is assur to own a radio? Are the broadcasts in Israel really that awful? Can someone please clarify this for me?

Akiva Miller

It is actually brought down in the Kitzur shulchan Aruch
Kesiva vaChasima Tova
Best Wishes for 5768,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/

On 8/26/07, R Wolberg <cantorwolberg@cox.net> wrote:
>
>  One of the lesser known roshei teivos of Elul appears in Shmos 21:13 "*E*
> ena  *L*'yado *V*'samti *L*'cho."  Even though a person has sinned, God
> provides for him a place to flee. Elul is that place; and teshuva, which
> has the same root and is related to "Shaiv" (sit, rest), Yeshiva, and
> Shabbos.
>
> When we flee to where we're going, we must take time to sit and rest and
> then learn (as in the Yeshiva) and finally our Shabbos will come once we've
> "returned."
>
>
>
> Richard Wolberg
>
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For evidence of my thseis that this kind of  Reshus is realy of the
necessary kind -  see Rashi Devarim 20:12

"If they do not make peace with you its end will be to make war with you."
>

Just re-interpret this to include the case that if you ignore or refuse to
confront a hostile nation then one day you will need to fight them anyway.
and this is still Reshus . And my point with Tosafos re: Arvis is that
Reshus is not always a 100% optional situation.  Just optional if you have
something better to do.

This is highly analogous to Ben Sorrer uMoreh which is a pre-emptive
execution of a "bad egg."  Simlarly Milhemet Reshus may be construed as a
preemptive war against a hostile nation that sooner or later will attack.

I neither case is stiting idly by OK , even though there is lack of IMMINENT
Danger.  That is my point.

OTOH when you are under actual attack - e.g. Pearl Harbor  - it becomes a
hova becasue of the immedicacy of the hostility.

E.G. Israel's raid on the Osiris reactor was a paradigmatic Reshus as so
construed.  OTOH responding to Iraqi scuds should have been a Hova  -except
for extenuating circumstances of the coalition.



-- 
Kesiva vaChasima Tova
Best Wishes for 5768,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/



On 8/17/07, kennethgmiller@juno.com <kennethgmiller@juno.com> wrote:
>
> R' Richard Wolpoe suggested:
> > Maybe a milchmes mitzva is one that is required immediately
> > while a milchemes reshus is simply one that is like a
> > pre-emptive siirke - iow if you don't fight NOW sooner or
> > later you may have to anyway. ... It is a Reshus NOW becasue
> > the enemies are dormant, but it is not simply an exercise in
> > wasting human life
>
> The problem with this theory is that I see no evidence for it. On the
> contrary, a couple of posters referred to cases where a milchemes reshus was
> based purely on economic reasons, which I *would* consider to be "an
> exercise in wasting human life".
>
> Even in a case where, Rachmana Litzlan, our countrymen are dying of
> starvation, and that could be remedied by attacking another country, I can't
> see any justification in killing those foreigners unless they are actually
> responsible for our starvation. Pikuach nefesh can justify stealing their
> food, but not killing their people.
>
> Akiva Miller
>
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 From: "Doron Beckerman" <beck072@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] Lifnei Iver/Kanaus

> On page 297, the following appears:
> "Question: A Bachur has a radio in his room in Yeshiva, and his friend 
> wants
> to break it and pay for it. Maran HaRav Shach zt"l once said that it is
> allowed for a child in his home to take his parents' radio and dispose of
> it.
>
> Answer: He can break it, and not pay. I don't know if he is obligated to 
> do
> so but there is an Inyan to do this. The Chazon Ish was once asked about a
> Bachur who saw heretical material by his friend, and he told him to 
> dispose
> of it, and that he is absolved from having to pay."

I find these examples (and the ones I deleted) TRULY frightening.  We are 
apparently advocating a totally lawless society.

How can this be, when the stories are based on asking a rav a psak?

The answer is that these are all issues of judgement, and they are being 
judged in a one-sided manner; before a single judge, and they are based on 
Da'at Yachid in the sense that there are plenty of other rabbis who pasken 
to allow the ownership and use of the radio (just listen to all the Arutzei 
HaKodesh that abound....).

As to the heretical material, again, this is one sided, based on a single 
witness proclaiming them heretical, and based on these examples, it's 
possible that one person's heretical material is actually another person's 
history book, or mathematics book or a volume of Shakespeare.

To pasken in such a way that without witnesses, without warning, without any 
Jewish judicial process, you can invade and harm another person's things, 
and not fear for Gezeila is extremely worrisome.  It also explains where 
people get the idea that throwing stones at cars for any reason they 
consider legitimate is okay, or starting fires in garbage cans is fine, 
despite the sakanat Nefashot involved.

I feel a measure of pity for the Mashiach who will try to restore order and 
Batei Din and find himself facing some very frum people who have gotten used 
to ignoring all the halachot of mishpat in their daily lives.

Shoshana L. Boublil

> In Derech Sicha (discussions with R' Chaim Kanievsky arranged in the order
> of the Parshiyos) pg. 369 the following is brought:
> ... in the waiting room there was an immodest picture, and he immediately
> ripped it... The Rav responded that he certainly did a good thing Al Pi Din,
> since this is Lifnei Iver, but if it were a Goy he would have to ask permission...
> On page 297, the following appears:
> ...HaRav Shach zt"l once said that it is allowed for a child in his home to take
> his parents' radio and dispose of it.
> Answer: He can break it, and not pay... The Chazon Ish was once asked
> about a Bachur who saw heretical material by his friend, and he told him to
> dispose of it, and that he is absolved from having to pay."

I wonder what the source of this is. I can think of possible sugyot
but nothing concrete:

There's the sugya of "Ein Adam Oseh Din L'Atzmo" discussing
saving/retrieving personal damage. All the cases there seem to refer
to monetary personal loss. Not potential spiritual harm. Not sure how
we pasken.

There's the sugya of ripping the red dress off a woman. It seems that
if she would have been Jewish then the perpetrator would have been
absolved of punishment. Yet I'm not sure if this is paskened
l'halocho.

There's also the sugya of ripping off a woman's head covering. Even
after proving that she didn't care the perpetrator still had to pay
her damages.

Where do we see in SA that you can take the law into your own hands?

What if the owner of the "heretical material" was studying it in order
to "know how to respond"? Would you then be allowed to destroy it? May
you make assumptions as to who is reading it for what purpose?

What if the parents don't want to keep the chumra of not owning a
radio - but simply enjoy listening to classical music? May one impose
one's Rov's psak as "law" against one's parent's Rov's hashkofo?

Why couldn't the immodest picture simply have been covered or taken
down? After all it could presumably be sold to a goy. AFAIK you may
not kill a rodef if the nirdaf can be saved by merely wounding the
rodef.

The main "Lifnei Iver" I see here is educating the generation to not
respect other people's property, haskofos and feelings.

- Danny

I recently was asked by a number of  recent baalei teshuvos -  how to 
deal with what they perceived as the intense negative atmosphere of 
Elul  in their seminary classes. They said that they were attracted to 
Torah observance because it was such a positive, future oriented way of 
life. However they find that in the seminary programs, there is a focus 
on finding fault with oneself, looking at the negative, being self 
critical and skeptical about their motivation.  They felt guilty about 
being turned off by this approach. They had been given an exercise 
requiring them to list their ten worst sins and what they should do to 
repent.

I asserted there is a direct comparison in this issue between 
psychotherapy and repentance. In both one chooses whether to focus on 
digging in the dirt or focusing on developing one's potential. In other 
words, one can do teshuva either by focusing on faults or by focusing on 
avodas HaShem as described by Rav Chaim Shmuelvitz. While the Rambam 
clearly requires acknowledging sin, the  affirmation of leaving it and 
confession - the issue is whether the main concern is repentance through 
repair of the bad or through improvement of the good? I understand the 
following two sources as going beyond the issue of repenting one's sins 
and focusing on the larger picture of what should be done with one's 
life. Any other sources which are relevant to this  issue?

*Sichos Musar (#33): *Everyone is required to thoroughly examine his 
deeds especially before Rosh HaShanna - the Day of Judgment. This 
obligation is not just to discover transgressions and lapses in 
observance of the commands. It also includes the evaluation whether  
one's path in serving G?d is the correct one for him since everyone has 
a unique path. The issue  of Avodas HaShem is such that a person could 
keep all the mitzvos yet have a completely false approach to serving 
G?d. The problem is compounded by the fact that he might have 
incorrectly assumed that what he was doing would be pleasing to G?d. 
Nevertheless all his efforts would have been to accomplish a mistaken 
goal. Consequently if he has not carefully evaluated the correctness of 
his plan than all his efforts and sacrifices are wasted. Furthermore he 
is punished according to the degree of effort he made to accomplish this 
wrong plan? This can be seen from the fact that Rav Yochanon ben Zakkai 
who was not only the leading Torah scholar of his time but also had 
succeeded in saving Torah for all future generations was frightened 
before his death. He cried before his students and said "I see before me 
two paths ? one to Gan Eden and the other to Gehinom and I don't know 
where they are taking me. Shouldn't I cry?" His fear was not because of 
failing to keep the whole Torah. His fear was solely because he might 
have failed to properly have done his Avodas HaShem. There is the 
additional problem with Avodas HaShem ? that one simply can't repent for 
doing it incorrectly since it is easy to be mistaken and assume that you 
are doing the right thing.


*Mishna Berura (Shaar HaTziyun 622:6): *A person many times despairs of 
correcting his faults and concludes that if G-d decrees that he dies 
because of his failure there is nothing he can do about it. However this 
is a mistaken attitude because in the end, G-d will get the correction 
of the soul that He wants. The soul will be reincarnated over and over 
again into this world until the correction is achieved. Consequently why 
should the soul repeatedly suffer death and the anguish of the grave and 
other things? Proof of this is from Yonah whom G-d wanted to prophesize 
for Nineveh and he tried to escape to the sea where prophesy does not 
occur. We see that he sunk into sea and was swallowed by the great fish 
and was in its belly many days where it seems that it was impossible to 
fulfill G-d?s command. Nevertheless we see that at the end G-d?s will 
was fulfilled and he went and prophesized. Thus it is with everyman 
according to his Divinely ordained task. Therefore as it says in Avos 
(4:22): Don?t view the grave as a refuge?because you were born against 
your will, you live against your will, you die against your will and 
against your will you will have to justify all your actions to the 
Heavenly court.


Daniel Eidensohn

maybe  it is no accident that the last haftora of the 7 denechemta 
includes the kri/ktiv bechol tzarotam  * lo  *  tzar  with  lamed alef 
written, read lamed vav.

of course this is also the letters  ELUL .    the choice is ours , 
depending on how we did/do this month , which reading Hashem will 
use......

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On a tangent to the subject of saying Mi Sheberach at a bris, are there 
any halachos regarding saying Mi Sheberach for a non-Jew?
 
Can anyone cite any authorities at all who specifically permit or prohibit
the practice, with their reasons?
 
(I've been trying in vain to get our gabbai to stop using the phrase "betoch 
shaar cholei Yisrael" on the basis of it's logical fallacy: you can't be counted 
within the *rest* of a group you're not a member of. Has anyone heard 
a more appropriate text?)
 
 
Elly
 
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Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
> I recently was asked by a number of  recent baalei teshuvos -  how to 
> deal with what they perceived as the intense negative atmosphere of 
> Elul  in their seminary classes. They said that they were attracted to 
> Torah observance because it was such a positive, future oriented way of 
> life. However they find that in the seminary programs, there is a focus 
> on finding fault with oneself, looking at the negative, being self 
> critical and skeptical about their motivation.
>   
<snip>
>  Any other sources which are relevant to this  issue?
>
>  

According to Dov Katz this is a machlokes between Slabodka and the older schools of mussar.  See Dov Katz, Tenuas HaMussar III:121-126.  I suspect that it's not so much a machlokes as an adaptation to different circumstances.  Maybe these people are just studying in the wrong place.

David Riceman

is any one aware of a psak from charedi poskim, that befeirush gives a 
hetter to either have an IDF, or to serve in it?  for males, of course, 
since there is a blanket issur for any women to serve in either IDF or 
Sherut Leumi....

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Elliott Shevin wrote:
> On a tangent to the subject of saying Mi Sheberach at a bris, are there
> any halachos regarding saying Mi Sheberach for a non-Jew?
>  
> Can anyone cite any authorities at all who specifically permit or prohibit
> the practice, with their reasons?

No, but why on earth would one not do so?  There's certainly ample
precedent for praying for a non-Jew.

  
> (I've been trying in vain to get our gabbai to stop using the phrase 
> "betoch shaar cholei Yisrael"

Of course.

> within the *rest* of a group you're not a member of. Has anyone heard
> a more appropriate text?)

How about "betoch she'ar hacholim"?  Or even "im cholei yisrael", though
perhaps that would tend to blur the hevdel ben yisrael la'amim.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

R' Micha Berger wrote:
> We both agreed that it would be interesting to hear what the chevrah
> thinks, particularly RDE's opinion of how the IM is being read. So,
> even though this chaver is reluctant to put his name on halachic
> guesswork in public, I got his permission to post on list.
>
>
>   
There are several places in the Igros Moshe which might be helpful

O.H. II #85 page 276; O.H. IV #74.7 page 135; OH.IV #74.18 page 137
 *??"? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ? ???? ??*

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????? ??????' ????? ??? ??"?. ?????? ???? ??"? ?????? ???? ??? ????? 
???? ?????.

.

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