Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 154

Wed, 18 Jul 2007

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "Eli Turkel" <eliturkel@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 10:52:47 +0200
[Avodah] yehoreg va-al yaavoer - churban habayit

<<There's a similar issue where the Roman's sent 2 emissaries to determine
whether the torah was biased against non-Jews.  They were taught all of
torah and found 2 examples but decided not to report.  Why didn't chazal
simply leave these out? IIRC R'Bleich explained that ziyuf hatora must
override pikuach nefesh even on this scale (it was a tape shiur I heard
years ago so....)>>

This is a chidush. Even with this this it applies only to actually changing
the Torah.
Zecharya was only afraid that people would misinterpret the action - a real
gezerah derabban. In fact there are many gezerot that something is
because it might lead to mistakes in the halacha. Would one eliminate yaavor
ve-al yehoreg in all these gezerot?

One additional proof I forgot that the gemara in Gittin treats the Romans
more favorably
than the Jews is the strange story with the rich woman who continually send
her slave
to buy food in the market and he always comes back that the food is gone.
Both the slave and the mistress seem to be incredously stupid that after it
once or twice that he isn't told to buy whatever is available. The
implication is again
that the Jews were so shortsighted that they could not conceive that the
next level of
food was already gone. This reinforces that the Gemara is continually
stressing the
shortsightedness and complacency of most of the Jews in the entire era.

Eli Turkel
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Message: 2
From: Daniel Eidensohn <yadmoshe@012.net.il>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 10:43:34 -0400
Re: [Avodah] When was the last korban?

RAM wrote:
>> My knowledge in these areas is sorely lacking, but my impression is
>> that the main obstacle to bringing the Korban Pesach, even nowadays,
>> is not knowing the exact location of the mizbayach. And this is
>> certainly something that was common knowledge for the first years
>> after the churban.

This is discussed in detail by R' Bleich Vol 1 of Contemporary Halachic 
Problems page 244-269

page 247 "There is also some historical evidence that sacrifices - 
particularly the paschal sacrifice - were offered sporadically during 
the period immediately following the destruction of the Temple. R. Jacob 
Emden, She'elat Ya'avez I, no 89, identifies the Rabban Gamliel quoted 
in Pesachim 74a as commanding his servant Tabi, "Go and roast the Pesach 
sacrifice," with the Rabban Gamliel who served as head of the Academy in 
Yavneh after the destruction of the Temple. R. Shimon ben Temach Duran, 
in his commentary on the Hagaddah, Yavin Shemu'ah (Lovorno, 5504), makes 
essential the same point in his discussion of the section Rabban Gamliel 
omer. Further evidence that sacrifices were actually brought after the 
destruction is adduced by R. Zevi Hirsch Chajes in his responsa, nos. 2 
and 76 and chapter 2 of his Darkei Hora'ah. [Chajes claims to have seen 
sifrei ha'amim which report that the paschal sacrifice was offered as 
late as during the reign of Justinian, at which time it was finally 
abrograted.] These historical contentions are rebutted by R. Chaim 
Nathanson in his Avodah Tamah (Altona 5632)."

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Message: 3
From: Arie Folger <afolger@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 13:50:13 +0200
Re: [Avodah] kesuvah

> R"n Menucha wrote:
> > Rav Mordechai Eliyahu SHLT"A, in a psak din (found in PDR 11)
> > writes that today "haminhag pashut" ?that before the giving of
> > the get the woman is mochel her ketuba in front of witnesses.

> Then why do they bother writing a ketuba to begin with?

> ... and why doesn't this reduce it to an aspachta [asmachta --AF]?

Because the ketubah isn't only about what the wife will get when she gets a 
get (puns intended), but both the support owed while married and the 
maintenance owed after her husband dies.
Arie Folger

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Message: 4
From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:02:50 GMT
Re: [Avodah] kamztah and bar-kamztah

R' Joel Rich wrote:
> They were taught all of torah and found 2 examples but decided
> not to report.  Why didn't chazal simply leave these out? IIRC
> R'Bleich explained that ziyuf hatora must override pikuach
> nefesh even on this scale 

R' SBA asked:
> What about all the changes made by the chachomim involved with
> translating the Septuagent

The answer I've heard to this is that the Septuagint changes were not 
severe enough to count as ziyuf. See the sugya in Megilla 9a-9b. It 
seems to me that they simply included the perush as part of the 
translation. A good example of this was translating "vaychal bayom 
hashvii" as "He completed on the sixth day and rested on the seventh 

This is common practice even today, where the translator adapts his 
style to what the expects his audience will best understand. For 
example, in his introduction to "The Living Torah", Rabbi Aryah 
Kaplan writes that the dialogue portions of the Torah include the 
word "vayomer" over and over. This is natural in Hebrew, but "very 
awkward and repetitive" in English. So he chose to 
translate "vayomer" by inserting quotation marks and starting a new 
paragraph. Is it ziyuf to omit traslating this word? No, it is a 
legitimate style of translating it. So too with the Septuagint's 

Akiva Miller

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Message: 5
From: "Jonathan Baker" <jjbaker@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:26:11 -0400 (EDT)
[Avodah] kesuvah

From: "Ilana Sober" <ilanasober@gmail.com>
> When my husband died, no one brought up the question of the kesuvah.
> Perhaps because all property issues were dealt with by the lawyer, and
> to some extent the bank and investment people, definitely not by beis
> din.

Probably the amounts were sufficient to cover the ketubah.  Were you 
married in Galut or Israel?  In Israel, they often put realistic amounts
on the ketubah (as a tosefet); in Galut, statutory amounts (200 zuz,
200 zekukim).
> How much money (in modern currency) is the kesuvah supposed to be, anyway?

Some sources say "enough for food and clothing [not shelter, apparently]
for a year", which might be, say, $5000?

The weights of silver translate to: 200 zuz, 11.5 oz. troy, 200 zekukim,
115 oz. troy.

What's the current silver price?  About $13/oz.  so 126.5 oz = $1644.
Not a heck of a lot.

My wife reminds me: we had an Israeli mesader kiddushin (her cousin, 
R' Mordechai Goldstein).  He added a line to the ketubah for me to sign,
apparently because it *is* a legally binding document in Israel, and 
thus needs the signature of the person making the committment.

        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjbaker@panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com

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Message: 6
From: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:38:10 -0400 (EDT)
Re: [Avodah] Parshas Masei - a few ha'oros

On Mon, July 16, 2007 9:32 am, SBA wrote:
: 5) Not being an expert on Gevulos Haaretz, I notice that some
: chumoshim displaying maps explain the parsha show that Beirut and
: (Sidon) are part of Eretz Yisroel. Is this indeed so? Did Jews living
: there keep  only one day YT?  And what about mitzvos hateluyos

Tzidon was Kena'an's bechor, and thus his capital city would be part
of the land given to us. See Yehoshua 11:8, 19:28. It would seem from
seifer Shofetim (1:31, 10:12) to be part of nachalas Ephraim (but at
the border of Zevulun, according to birkhas Yaaqov), but not yet
conquered at that time. It is mentioned in Melakhim I, Yeshaiah,
Yechezqeil, Yirmiyahu, Divrei haYamim... Clearly became a center of
art and industry, shipping and trade.

Archaeological evidence confirms its connection to the techeiles

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

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Message: 7
From: "Dr. Josh Backon" <backon@vms.huji.ac.il>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:32:11 +0300
[Avodah] Keeping pigs as pets

]Moved over to AVODAH from AREIVIM at the request of the moderators:
R. Shlomo Abeles had asked about the kashrut of truffles (sniffed out by
dogs and pigs). I and others mentioned this was irrelevant to its kashrut
status. Then R. Zev Sero asked:

>Of course they're kosher.  And yes, it is perfectly OK to play with a
>pigskin football, or to carry a pigskin wallet, or even to touch a live
>pig (e.g. at a petting zoo).  Does anyone know whether it's assur to
>keep a pig as a pet?  About 10 years ago there was a fad for keeping
>Vietnamese potbellied pigs; would this be a problem?  The issue I'm
>thinking of is the curse on pig-raisers that was imposed after the
>story that happened during the war between Shlomit Alexandra's sons;
>is that halacha for all times and places, or was it just a curse for
>that generation, or just for EY, or something like that?

The story about chochmah yevanit (why pigs shouldn't be raised in Israel)
is in Bava Kamma 82b but the issur itself is discussed in a gemara in
Pesachim 23a re: sechora. Tosfot there d"h amar kra differentiates between
nonkosher animals which are not eaten (and thus can be traded) vs. nonkosher
animals (e.g. pigs) which are eaten. Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah Siman 117
discusess the issur of sechora. The Shach there s"k 2 curiously mentions
'aval im eino  mocher l'tzorech achila lo chaishinan". However, the Pitchei
Tshuva there s"k 4 brings down the Pri Chadash "zulat ... l'gadlan babayit
l'ha'achilam" (to his gentile workers). The Chatam Sofer II YD 108 in a very
detailed tshuva on sechora and issur hanaa ends with: u'mikol makom shomer
nafsho yirachek mikol eilu".

PEYRUSH RASHI [tm]: though it may be permitted to keep a pet pig since
you're not going to sell it or eat it, you'd want to follow the 
dictum of the Chatam

BTW it looks like the same problem would be involved in keeping sheratzim
like lizards as pets.



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Message: 8
From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:13:29 GMT
Re: [Avodah] kesuvah

R' Arie Folger wrote:
> Either way, including when the get is given prior to any
> settlement, seder haget includes asking the parties whether
> they have settled all financial issues or, alternatively, are
> ready to do a get before settling the financial matters. Hence,
> either way, the ketubah is part of financial negotiations.

Yes, they do have the right to do the get now and do the financial 
negotiations later. My fear is that the wife may be unduly pressured 
into accepting this, and unreasonably forfeiting her kesuba as a 

It seems to me that a more appropriate procedure would be for her to 
receive the kesuba (however much that might be in today's money) at 
the time the get is given, and count it as a partial payment towards 
whatever other money might be due to her later.

On the other hand, if the husband claims that the wife has done an 
actions by which she has already forfeited the kesuba, then the above 
idea won't work. This is part of why I've never liked the idea of 
working out deals in steps, handling some things now and leaving 
other things for later -- because if the later issues turn out to be 
non-negotiable deal-breakers, it is too late to undo the things which 
had already been handled in the early stages. Rather, all the issues 
should be worked out together, and then the get, civil divorce, and 
finances can be done at the same time.

Akiva Miller

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Message: 9
From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:33:58 GMT
Re: [Avodah] kesuvah

I found that the website of the Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance 
(http://www.jofa.org) has a *lot* of information on the policies of 
several batei din. They conducted a survey of them, and published the 
responses at http://www.jofa.org/beitdingrid.html

According to that page, here are their policies regarding "Ketubbah 
Money", which "was last verified on 6/6/05":

Beit Din Of Elizabeth, Rabbi Elazar M. Teitz -- Sometimes will 
collect. Feel New Jersey equitable distribution law more favorable so 
generally applies it  

Beth Din Of Agudath Harabonim, Rabbi Hersh M. Ginsberg -- Yes will 
collect, if wife demands it. Approximately $5,000 according to Rabbi 
Moshe Feinstein (based on current value of silver) 

Beth Din Of Agudath Harabonim (Brooklyn Branch), Rabbi Aryeh Ralbag --
 Yes, tries to collect. $10,000 for first marriage, $5,000 for second 

Beth Din Of America, Rabbi Gedalia Schwartz -- Beit din considers a 
variety of factors to determine monetary settlement. Will evaluate 
worth of ketubbah if party(ies) request 

Bais Din Of Igud Harabonim Of America, Rabbi Herschel Kurzrock -- 
Yes, collects. Part of monetary consideration of overall settlement.

If the above is an accurate representation of batei din in general, 
it would seem to contradict the original claim of R' Mordechai Cohen 
regarding <<< the current minhag not to pay kesuvah >>>.

Akiva Miller

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Message: 10
From: JoshHoff@aol.com
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 13:35:21 EDT
Re: [Avodah] Avodah Digest, Vol 23, Issue 153- Ziyuf HaTorah

In a message dated 7/17/2007 6:13:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org writes:

> RJRich wrote:
> >There's a similar issue where the Roman's sent 2 emissaries to determine
> >whether the torah was biased against non-Jews. ?They were taught all of
> >torah and found 2 examples but decided not to report. ?Why didn't chazal
> >simply leave these out? IIRC R'Bleich explained that ziyuf hatora must
> >override pikuach nefesh even on this scale (it was a tape shiur I heard
> >years ago so....)
> It is from the Maharshal. (B"K 32?)

 Maharshal in YSS to B.K.38-also Meiri there. R. Bleichs later wrote up and 
published the shiur ( I think he originally gave it at a RIETS Yom Iyun) as an 
article in Tradition,and then included it in one of his volumes on 
Contemporary Halachic Problems.

 Get a sneak peek of 
the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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Message: 11
From: "Michael Kopinsky" <mkopinsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 13:08:52 -0600
[Avodah] kesuvah

As a Talmudic precedent for some of what we are discussing here, ie that the
text of the kesubah is disregarded for common practice, see BM 104b at the
top.  The gemara discusses that there was a minhag to double the amount of
the monetary obligation when writing the shtar, for kavod.  (In such a
place, you would only collect half the amount written, of course.)

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Message: 12
From: T613K@aol.com
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 18:38:25 EDT
Re: [Avodah] TY and TY

From: "Danny Schoemann" <doniels@gmail.com>
>>For as long  as I can recall, I've been doing an Aliya/day with Unkelos....

At night I  try do it with "something else"; Ramban, TY, Rashi, etc.
This year I tried  Ibn Ezra, but ... quit before Chanuka.

- Danny, with 80 days to decide  what to do for next year's cycle<<

May I suggest something that may seem too easy, but is really very, very  
worthwhile?  Read R' Hirsch on the parsha for a whole year.


--Toby  Katz

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
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Message: 13
From: "Allen Gerstl" <acgerstl@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:42:29 -0400
[Avodah] TY

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:05:07 +1000
R' "SBA" <sba@sba2.com>
Wrote: Subject: [Avodah]   TY and TY:

From: "Danny Schoemann" <>
>>I once did Marbe Sedra ...
>>for an enitre year with TY and TY....
>>(I've often thought of "publishing" the "vortelach" in Targun
Onkelus, i.e. where it deviates from strict translation)
I always wondered if there is such a publication, and if not - why not?
The TY has a few VERY interesting pieces - on almost every parsha.

I think that Yayin Ha-Tov al Ha-Targumim by R. Alter Wein (the father of R. 
Berel Wein)
may meet your requirements.


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Message: 14
From: "Yisrael Medad" <yisrael.medad@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 09:26:37 +0300
[Avodah] Post-Churban Korbanot

It may be instructive to review what happened in another period when the
possibility of either bringing Korbanot or rebuilding the Mikdash became

"...Flavius Claudius Julianus, a nephew of Constantine - also known as
Julian the Apostate because of his opposition to Christianity. Julian
planned the project in the last year of his reign in A.D. 363. Julian
rescinded all the anti-Jewish laws that his uncle Constantine had
instituted. He issued an edict that the Temple be rebuilt in Jerusalem. This
caused a great deal of excitement among the Jews. From far and wide, Jews
came to Jerusalem to help in the rebuilding work. Julian supplied the
necessary funds and appointed Alypius of Antioch, the Roman Governor of
Great Britain, to carry out the project. Jews from all over gave from their
wealth upon the projected work of rebuilding the Temple. The roads to
Jerusalem were filled with multitudes of Jewish men and women who had hopes
of seeing a Third Temple built."


Julian made all necessary preparations in order to begin the rebuilding of
the Temple of Jerusalem. He addressed a letter to all Jewish congregations
of the Empire, in which he spoke in friendly way of the leader of Jewry in
the Empire, the Patriarch Julos (Hillel), as his brother. He promised the
abolition of the high taxes laid upon the Israelites by the Christians,
guaranteed that in future none should accuse them of blasphemy, promised
freedom and security, and promised to have Jerusalem rebuilt at his expense,
as soon as he returned victorious from the Persian war.

For the rebuilding of the Temple of Jerusalem Julian commissioned his best
friend, Alypius of Antioch, to whom he gave instructions to spare no
expense, and commanded the governors of Palestine and Syria to assist with
everything necessary."

Any implications, insinuations or parallels to the current day are to be

Yisrael Medad
Mobile Post Efraim 44830
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