Avodah Mailing List
Volume 23: Number 148
Sat, 07 Jul 2007
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 13:09:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Avodah] korbonos by mincha gedoyle
On Tue, July 3, 2007 4:53 pm, R Zev Sero wrote:
: Even if the future Sanhedrin will see some value in keeping outdated
: minhagim for tradition's sake...
The Rambam on shemittah when there is no yoveil is about keeping pesaq
until it is proven wrong, not just proven basis-less.
Tir'u baTov!
-mi
--
Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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Message: 2
From: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 13:13:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Mourning for the Temple or repenting?
On Tue, July 3, 2007 6:25 pm, Rich, Joel wrote:
: [R' Daniel Eidensohn:]
:> I spoke recently with Rav Meisleman and he confirmed as elementary
:> that mourning is external activities and does not require feelings
: of sadness.
...
: I'm not sure we need a mitzvah to feel the loss of a loved one,
: it is inherent in the briah and the mitzvot seem designed around it
: (again for aveilut yachid/ chadasha versus rabim/yeshana) One could
: argue (R' YBS) that the whole point of the 3 weeks is to build those
: feelings.
Or perhaps it's even more parallel...
Aveilus is a mitzvah that channels and harnesses the feelings of loss.
As RJR writes, it takes it as a given that those feelings are there.
The notion he attributes RYBS, that the qiyum of aveilus is the
sadness, doesn't seem muchrakh. Aveilus starts with sadness and
teaches how to express it.
I would therefore suggest that the 3 Weeks were designed with the
assumption that people would feel sadness for the loss of the BHMQ and
of la'asos chovoseinu beveis bechirasekha, and the qiyum is using that
sadness properly.
Which would be teshuvah, at least in part.
Tir'u baTov!
-mi
--
Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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Message: 3
From: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 13:16:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Avodah] healthy eating and exercise--hashkafic aspects
On Wed, July 4, 2007 4:26 pm, Moshe Feldman wrote:
: Moreover, when a person succumbs to his ta'avos and eats too much
: unhealthy food, he is in danger of falling into the trap of living in
: order to eat, rather than eating in order to live, which violates kol
: ma'asecha yi'hu l'shem Shamayim.
Defining the value of the middah of perishus in a nutshell.
It's not asceticism, but avoiding the those things that can drop you
into that trap. Ideally, the nazir would be able to handle wine
constructively, rather than it posing a trap he can't resist.
Tir'u baTov!
-mi
--
Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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Message: 4
From: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 13:31:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Kos Shel Bracha
On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 00:55:32 EDT, RnTK <T613K@aol.com> wrote:
:> I would think that the story with Noach proves that the notion of
:> praising Hashem over a cup of wine (or perhaps celebrating in
:> general) is something innate in the human condition.
: "Celebrating"? Was Noach celebrating the "human condition" of having
: almost everyone you know dead in a world-wide catastrophe, and
: desperately wanting to escape the pain and grief of it all?
Interesting question: Was Noach drinking to forget, or to thank G-d
for being saved? I really just assumed the latter. But looking at the
context, I can see why.
Here is the sequence. Noach:
- gets off the teiva
- brings olos thanking H' for being saved
- enters into a beris with HQBH
This beris ends with "peru urevu ... umora'akhem vechitekhem" -- in
short, the attention is now on rebuilding a future.
As it is the introduction to our section, where Hashem again lists the
yotz'ei teiva and introduces Kenaan.
So that explains why my mind went in that direction.
BTW, does anyone know how much time went by? Noach must have had
"survivor mentality" the rest of his life, but this whole line of
questioning started me wondering.
Looking at Rashi, I noticed the following:
Rashi makes a point of telling you that Kenaan is introduced because
this story explains the root of Kenaan's qelalah. Notice that it all
starts with wine.
Then, on the word "ohaloh", which is oddly spelled with a final hei
rather than a cholam maleim Rashi tells us this is a reference to the
10 Shevatim, who were also called Ahalah -- after the Shomeron. (A
nickname for Malkhus Yisrael that finds its way into Qinos...) And
why? Because the 10 Shevatim were lead astray through grape -
"hashosim bemizreqei yayim (Amos 6:6)".
There would seem to be an implied undercurrent of MY being accused of
assimilating the attitude toward wine their Kanaanite neighbors picked
up / demonstrated in this story.
And, judging from Amos, the problem with wine that Rashi is focusing
on is inappropriate revelry.
Tir'u baTov!
-mi
--
Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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Message: 5
From: "Rich, Joel" <JRich@sibson.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 13:39:47 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Daat Torah
IIRC we've discussed this a number of times but I just noticed the
following in R' Al's "Communal Governance, Lay and Rabbinic: An
Overview" in the orthodox forum series:
"Gedolim from time immemorial asserted leadership in all walks of
life....., as the Rav stated at an early stage, had decided serious and
complex questions of political conduct"
The footnote reads "From the eulogy delivered in 1940, of Rav Hayim
Ozer........He later changed his mind on the topic"
KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 6
From: "SBA" <sba@sba2.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 20:52:51 +1000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] BhT 4-27:15
From: MPoppers@kayescholer.com
RSBA asked:
> PS Talking of the parsha, can anyone explain the Baal Haturim
27:15 <
For the last one-on-one conversation, MRAH was given the "latitude" to be
recorded as speaking in as direct a manner as was normally the case when he
was on the receiving end of a Divine communication.
>>
On Shabbos someone showed me a beautiful pshat in this BhT in the sefer
'Yalkut Ohev Yisroel' from Reb Meshulam Zusia of Zinkov - a grandson of the
baal Ohev Yisroel of Apta.
Scan upon request.
SBA
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Message: 7
From: mkopinsky@gmail.com
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 21:22:28 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] kaddish kashes
On 7/6/07, Newman,Saul Z <Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org> wrote:
> i know there are guidelines for kadima in kaddishes.
A side question: Are the halachos of kadima in kadish actually me'akeiv,
as in, does a shul really *need* to follow them? It seems that many of
them were kind of arbitrary, to have some kind of system to stop the
fighting in shul. (Or is that just me being an am ha'aretz and trying to
talk about something I know nothing about?)
KT,
Michael
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Message: 8
From: "A & C Walters" <acwalters@bluebottle.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 23:11:46 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Tzvei dinim to bitel torah
Should be correctly attributed to:
A letter from Max Reeger (1873-1916) to a critic.
'I am sitting in the smallest room of my house. I have your review before
me. In a moment it will be behind me.'
He was a composer of opera.
Most definatly not Voltaire
>
> > The smallest room *in* my house? What was the *out*house doing *in*
the
> > house? I think that mistake gives away the fact that this quote was
> > not written by Voltaire, but by someone who himself had indoor
> > plumbing, and ascribed it to Voltaire, making the same mistake that
> > someone made about the GRA.
>
> Outhouse man dchar shmeih? Voltaire didn't live in some Lithuanian
> backwater. 18th-century Paris had indoor toilets.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Free pop3 email with a spam filter.
http://www.bluebottle.com/tag/5
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Message: 9
From: saul mashbaum <smash52@netvision.net.il>
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:11:19 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Chalitza - First ever clip (from areivim)
RSBoublil wrote:
>>
Actually, in Eretz Yisrael, it's possible to see a Chalitza, on average,
once a month, usually Friday closest to Rosh Chodesh.
>>
The Rama EH169:7 says the minhag is not to go chalitza on erev Shabbat. The Pitchei Tshuva there says that chalitza is done on Friday only in dire necessity (hechreach gadol) I cannot see why this would not be observed by batei din in Israel.
RTKatz asked why the yevama is instructed not to eat before the chalitza See EH 169, seder chalitza 10. This is done so that the spittle the yevama expectorates is natural, not induced by the food she ate. According to the SA, chalitza is usually done in the morning, thus this should not be much of a hardship. I believe that b'dieved, if nevertheless the yevama ate something, the chalitza can proceed as planned; I saw this in a commentary on seder chalitza, but do not know if this is the consensus of the poskim.
Saul Mashbaum
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Message: 10
From: "Eli Turkel" <eliturkel@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 22:31:16 +0200
Subject: [Avodah] Temple Mourning
RDE writes
<<The reason I am mentioning this is I can't remember a single derasha
about the 3 weeks that didn't involve the need to be upset about the
loss of the Temple or to be upset that we weren't upset about the loss.
If it is aveilus then in fact there is no requirement to feel sad. If it
is a method of motivating teshuva than feeling upset is appropriate. >>
RYBS has an extensive discussion of these issues in the shiurim on
aveilut and tisha ba-av. He concludes that
1. The main component of sitting shiva is the sadness (kiyum shebelav)
and external activities only bring one to that state.
2. The main component of simcha on yom tov is again the internal
happiness. Eating meat and drinking wine are merely means to achieve
inner happiness. Hence, aveilut inherently contradicts yomtov even
an avel is allowed to eat meat and drink wine
3. The main component of the 4 fasts is aveilut over the churban. Hence,
the need to cry. Teshuva is a secondary outcome not the primary.
(the notes mention that Minchat Chinuch and Griz disagree and hold
that the 4 fast days have 2 components one of Taanit over the churban and
one of teshuva).
In particular RYBS notes that Neila is said only on a taanit tzibur
when the focus is teshuva but not on the 4 fast days where the emphasis
is aveilut over past disasters.
kol tuv
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 11
From: "D&E-H Bannett" <dbnet@zahav.net.il>
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 00:04:19 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] borders of Israel
R' Josh notes that in Gittin 7b in discussing the western
border of E"Y, one gets islands off the coast into the
borders of E"Y.
But why limit our boundaries to just a few insignificant
islands? Just turn to the next page. On 8a where R' Yehuda
says everything directly west of E"Y is included in E"Y.
Tosefot questions whether people in southern France should
be required to take teruma and ma'aser.
Some seem to wonder whether, instead of looking for
exclusions from mitzvot ha-t'luyot ba'aretz we should expand
and add kedusha. But, then, the person who asked, R' Peter
(?) has what sounds like an un-Jewish name. Perhaps this
explains his unusual ideas.
k"t,
David
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Message: 12
From: Daniel Eidensohn <yadmoshe@012.net.il>
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 00:24:20 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] tisha ba-av and aveilut
R' Eli Turkel wrote:
> Daniel Eidensohn points out that the Teshuvah element may be stronger
> than the Aveilus element in the Three Weeks, since Aveilus does not
> require that we feel sad and yet we find sadness as a running theme in
> Torah regarding this period.>>
> I find this statement confusing.
I recently discussed this issue with Rav Shurkin. He said that he had
heard both the view of Reb Moshe and RYBS directly from them and that he
agreed with RYBS understanding. He noted that he has about 50 pages of
discussion of RYBS's view in the second volume of Harrei Kedem.
1) Reb Moshe held that Aveilus is an external behavior to show respect
to the niftar. It does not require any feelings. One does not have to do
anything to cause or reinforce sadness. 2) RYBS held that Aveilus has
two components the external which is usually described as aveilus but
also has the internal component of being upset and the ikkar was the
feeling.
The Mishna in sixth chapter of Sanhedrin (46b) AND THEY OBSERVED NO
MOURNING RITES1 BUT GRIEVED [FOR HIM], FOR GRIEF IS BORNE IN THE HEART
ALONE. Reb Moshe would understand that the mishna is describing two
separate halachos. The criminal does not have the outer activity known
as aveilus but the inner state known as aninus is permitted. RYBS would
say that the external component of Aveilus is prohibited but the inner
aspect of aveilus is permitted.
The footnotes in "Shiurei HaRav for Aveilus and Tisha B'Av" acknowledge
that RYBS view seems at odds with Rashi in Kesubos.
My point is that if you take Reb Moshe's view then it makes no sense to
say that "proper mourning for the destruction of the Temple requires
feeling sad and that it is problematic not to be sad about the event."
However it would make sense to say "since the purpose of commemorating
the destruction of the Temple is to repent for the sins that led to its
loss than if one dosn't feel upset than he is not doing proper teshvua."
However from RYBS point of view the first statement would also make
sense. It is not clear to me what the actual source of R' Soloveitchiks
understanding. In terms of the halacha I have been told by a posek that
Reb Moshe's view is that found in the halachic literature. A number of
rabbbonim consulted all agreed that aveilus and aninus are two distinct
halachos and are not different aspects of aveilus.
Daniel Eidensohn
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Message: 13
From: Arie Folger <afolger@aishdas.org>
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 23:33:16 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] "Targum Yonatan"
R'n Menucha wrote:
> Fatima is also mentioned in Pirkei DeRabbi Eliezer there. ?Couldn't it
> truly be the name of Yishmael's wife?
Pirqei deRE is from about the 7th cenury, and so could be referring to that
Muslim prophet's wife.
Good week,
--
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com
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Message: 14
From: Daniel Eidensohn <yadmoshe@012.net.il>
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 00:33:52 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Mourning for the Temple or repenting?
R' Micha Berger wrote:
> Aveilus is a mitzvah that channels and harnesses the feelings of loss.
> As RJR writes, it takes it as a given that those feelings are there.
>
The critical factor is whether one needs to work on him/herself if one
doesn't feel upset. A common derasha these days is that one needs to
feels sad that one doesn't feel sad over the destruction of the Temple.
According to Reb Moshe's understanding of aveilus the statement is not
true if the three weeks is aveilus. However it is correct if one is
dealing with teshuva.
> I would therefore suggest that the 3 Weeks were designed with the
> assumption that people would feel sadness for the loss of the BHMQ and
> of la'asos chovoseinu beveis bechirasekha, and the qiyum is using that
> sadness properly.
>
>
Another critical issue is if there is inherent sadness for the loss of
the Temple why was the halacha (Rosha HaShanna 18b) that there was an
oblgation to fast except in times of trouble but that if there were
peace in the world there was no need to fast? [Tisha B'Av being an
exception.] Also why R' Yehuda HaNasi apparently tried to do away with
the 17th of Tammuz and possibly Tisha B'av if there was in fact inherent
sadness? (Megila 5a-b)
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Message: 15
From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 03:00:18 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Slogan game
Certainly this list should include the Yud-Gimel Midos, whose last
word (v'nakeh) takes on a very different meaning when it is separated
from the words which follow it.
Akiva Miller
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