Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 146

Thu, 05 Jul 2007

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 17:55:30 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kos Shel Bracha


On Sun, Jun 17, 2007 at 11:42:34PM -0400, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
: R' Akiva Miller:
:> Someone was sitting with his family at their Shabbos seudah, 
:> remembered to do this mitzvah d'Oraisa of praising Shabbos with 
:> words, and raised his cup (perhaps of wine, perhaps of schnapps, 
:> perhaps of beer, probably not of water), and declared "Baruch Hashem 
:> for giving us the holy Shabbos!", or something like that...

: I once heard a Rav say, "It means a lot more when you say it with a cup of
: wine!"

I would think that the story with Noach proves that the notion of
praising Hashem over a cup of wine (or perhaps celebrating in general)
is something innate in the human condition.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi



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Message: 2
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 18:01:44 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] wearing tzitzit outside


On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 06:24:54PM +0300, Moshe Feldman wrote:
: "D&E-H Bannett" dbnet@zahav.net.il wrote that the contradiction between the
: MB and CC's actual practice derives from the fact that the CC's talmidim
: wrote parts of the MB.
: 
: We have discussed this issue in the past.  Here are some snippets:
...

While I agree with the basic notion, I am not sure that it's the source
of most contradictions. After all, his talmidim had more opportunity to
learn what the CC actually practiced far better than any researcher
exploring the discrepencies.

Rather (again, as discussed in the past), I like RSM's explanation based
on the haqdamah -- the MB gave you which opinion was theoretically
superior, not which is halakhah.

IMHO, the difference is that halakhah is determined by puq chazi mai amar
devar; minhag and common practice may push us to go with a theoretically
sound but "2nd best sevara" choice.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
micha@aishdas.org        greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
http://www.aishdas.org   in fact, of our modesty.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)



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Message: 3
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 18:06:18 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Moav/Midyan


On Tue, Jun 26, 2007 at 01:29:18PM +0000, Gershon Dubin wrote:
: End of this week's parasha:  vayachel ha'am liznos el benos Moav.
...
: Finally (this is not my question), Balak ben Tzipor melech leMoav ba'es
: hahi, meaning (per Rashi) that he was not a native Moavi.  If so, why
: could not Rus, his descendant, marry into Kelal Yisrael without the
: derasha of Moavi velo Moavis?

Balaq had already joined Moav by the time they earned "lo yavo ... Moavi
biqehal Hashem".

Tir'u baTov!
-mi



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Message: 4
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgluck@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 17:54:20 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Wartime orders


R' Saul Weinreb:
I don't think being court martialled is a pikuash nefesh, as I stated
before, people don't actually get executed for such things in today's
military.? 



I was the one who originally suggested that being court-martialed might be a
Safek Sakanas Nefashos, and I'm not convinced by your statement, "people
don't actually get executed for such things in today's military," that it
isn't. AIUI, since one could be court-martialed, and since the court has the
power to give the death sentence, the fact that it generally (99.99%) of the
time doesn't do so doesn't change the Safek Pikuach Nefesh aspect of the
procedure. It isn't hard to come up with a scenario - especially in an
ad-hoc wartime situation - where one can end up in front of a hostile court
(and where anti-Semitism may come into play) resulting in a summary death
penalty judgment. Although there hasn't been a U.S. court-martial resulting
in an execution since 1961, there are nine inmates in the military death row
(source: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=180&;scid=32#facts.)
(To be fair, I believe all those cases include a murder component. However,
I believe one can receive the death penalty for treason, and I could see how
disobeying orders can be mistaken, in some contexts, for that.) 

KT,
MYG




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Message: 5
From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 20:05:46 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Wartime orders


Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
> I believe one can receive the death penalty for treason, and I could see how
> disobeying orders can be mistaken, in some contexts, for that.) 

No, it can't.  Treason is only joining with the enemy, and helping them
*because* they're the enemy.  When Hans Haupt was tried for treason,
the jury was instructed that it wasn't enough that he had sheltered a
German spy in his home, found him a job in a sensitive factory, helped
him buy a car, etc., and that he knew the man was a spy, and that these
actions would help the enemy.  If they found that he had done these
things only because the spy was his son, and did them despite the fact
that he was a spy, then they must acquit him of treason.  They could
only convict him if they found that he did these things *because* his
son was a spy for the enemy; that he himself identified with the enemy
and intended to help the enemy by helping his son perform his mission.
(The jury did indeed find these things, and the Supreme Court held that
they were allowed to infer his intent from his actions.)   An action
that helps the enemy, but that wasn't done for that purpose, cannot be
treason.



-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas



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Message: 6
From: "Mordechai Torczyner" <torczyner@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 21:32:10 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Mourning for the Temple or repenting?


Daniel Eidensohn points out that the Teshuvah element may be stronger than
the Aveilus element in the Three Weeks, since Aveilus does not require that
we feel sad and yet we find sadness as a running theme in Torah regarding
this period.

It seems clear that Teshuvah is a major theme; after all, the Mishneh
Berurah 549:1 says that this is the theme of our taaniyos.

However, perhaps another root of the bein hametzarim practices is a
fulfillment of Zecher l'Mikdash, which the gemara (RH 30a) traces to "Tziyon
he, doreish ein lah" - we are obligated to be doreish (to seek out) Tziyon.
Of course, zecher l'mikdash could also be external and action-based, but the
concept of being "doreish" sounds stronger than that.

Be well,
Mordechai

-- 
Please note my new email address: torczyner@gmail.com

Congregation Sons of Israel, Allentown, PA  http://www.sonsofisrael.net
HaMakor! http://www.hamakor.org Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
Webshas! http://www.webshas.org Index to the Talmud
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Message: 7
From: Arie Folger <afolger@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 12:25:15 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Wartime orders


RSW wrote:
> I don't think being court martialled is a pikuash nefesh, as I stated
> before, people don't actually get executed for such things in today's
> military. ?However, you do bring up am interesting question. ?Let's say for
> arguments sake, that one is not allowed to enter a profession where he will
> be called upon to do melacha on shabbos that is sakanas nefashos (this is
> highly debatable, but just for now assume that it is assur). ?The person
> joins anyway, either out of ignorance, or because he didn't care that it
> was prohibited. ?Now he is in the situation that he must do a melacha and
> it really is unquestionably sakanas nefashos, can he do the melacha now?

I believe that you misunderstood me. If there is an actual piqua'h nefesh, no 
matter how one got into it, the melakhah is required. Whether one is allowed 
to put himself in a place where there will be a hetter of piqua'h nefesh is 
NOT the issue of my post, although my gut reaction to that question is that 
it depends on how important it is to have that particular job filled.

The question I addressed is, is one allowed to enroll in the US Army or 
Reserves if he knows that he will have to train - in non piqua'h nefesh 
situation - on Shabbos? AFAIK, the National Guard trains mostly on Saturday 
and Sunday. Perhaps we could come to the strange conclusion that the US Army 
is OK (I don't know, I am just speculating), while the National Guard isn't 
(again, I am just speculating).

By extension, we need to ask whether one is allowed to follow orders and avoid 
being court marshalled if his training involves melakhot on Shabbat WITHOUT 
the hetter of piqua'h nefesh. I am talking here about regular basic training, 
not about the extremely important training prior to actual operations or when 
on constant alert in a war theater, both of which seem like piqua'h nefesh 
situations.

This is of course not relating to such a time when a draft may be instituted, 
which would likely only arise in a very bad war situation, filled with 
piqua'h nefesh situations. In such a case, participation in the army, 
reserves, Natinoal Guard, etc. may become a serious obligation. For more 
information on this tangent, read rabbinic responsa about World War One.

In fact, I am just reading a biography ("?tre juif et fran?ais/ Jacob Kaplan, 
le rabbin de la republique" 
http://www.amazon.fr/Etre-Juif-Fran?ais-Kaplan-R?publique/dp/2350760235) of 
the former Chief Rabbi of France, R. Jacob Kaplan, who changed the mood in 
the French Rabbinate to one that looks positively upon Orthodox Judaism, 
rather than adhering to it begrudgingly, and who felt it had been a great 
duty of his to fight in a French combat unit in WW One. He wasn't the only 
one thinking thus.

KT,
-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com



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Message: 8
From: Elliott Shevin <eshevin@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 09:23:17 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Wartime orders



Saul Weinreb writes:
> The last time that the US military actually executed soldiers for disobedience was I think in the civil war, 
 
Just a point of information here. If the death penalty is the issue, consider that the last US soldier to be 
executed was Eddie Slovik in WWII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Slovik), albeit for desertion rather 
than disobedience. Elly
_________________________________________________________________
See what you?re getting into?before you go there.
http://newlivehotmail.com
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Message: 9
From: "Rabbi Ari Enkin" <rabbiari@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 13:53:47 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] Borders of Eretz Yisrael - Rashi




A Rashi that has always been bothering me is again "coming up".

On Bamidbar 34:6

The western border: it shall be for you the Great [Mediterranean] Sea and 
the border this shall be your western border.

RASHI-

The western border And what was the western border?
[It shall be for you] the Great Sea As a boundary. and the border. The 
islands in the sea are also included in the border. These islands are called 
isles in old French.  [Gittin 8a]

*********

COULD THIS MEAN THAT CYPRUS MAY BE CONSIDERED ERETZ YISRAEL?

Your thoughts and sources are very welcome and appreciated.

Ari Enkin
Ramat Beit Shemesh





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Message: 10
From: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 13:42:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Borders of Eretz Yisrael - Rashi


On Thu, July 5, 2007 9:53 am, Rabbi Ari Enkin wrote:
: On Bamidbar 34:6
...
: RASHI-
: The western border And what was the western border?
: [It shall be for you] the Great Sea As a boundary. and the border. The
: islands in the sea are also included in the border. These islands are
: called isles in old French. ? [Gittin 8a]

: COULD THIS MEAN THAT CYPRUS MAY BE CONSIDERED ERETZ YISRAEL?

Yes. In fact, I once had the honor of giving a chumash shiur where one
of the attendee's father had the experience of making it as far as
Cyprus but didn't live to see Israel. IIRC, his experiences in Europe
left him in very poor health.

And it was of great comfort to this man to think that leshitas Rashi,
his father did make it to Eretz Yisrael in this sense of the term.

Rashi's old French reference seems to refer to the Greek Islands, not
just Cyprus. I would think Sicily and even Sardinia and Corsica too.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter




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Message: 11
From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 13:44:20 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Borders of Eretz Yisrael - Rashi


Rabbi Ari Enkin wrote:

> RASHI-
> 
> The western border And what was the western border?
> [It shall be for you] the Great Sea As a boundary. and the border. The 
> islands in the sea are also included in the border. These islands are 
> called isles in old French. ? [Gittin 8a]
> 
> *********
> 
> COULD THIS MEAN THAT CYPRUS MAY BE CONSIDERED ERETZ YISRAEL?

It depends on how you draw the western boundary.  See Encyclopaedia
Talmudit, erech Eretz Yisrael.  Some draw a line from the northern
tip of the EY coast to the southern tip, and include that part of
the sea that falls east of the line.  This would not include Cyprus,
even if you take Rashi's northern and southern tips (Antioch and the
Nile).  But some draw lines from the northern and southern tip to the
Strait of Gibraltar, and that would include most of the Med islands.
I don't think anyone living on those islands ever actually followed
this lehalacha.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas



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Message: 12
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgluck@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 13:54:13 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Borders of Eretz Yisrael - Rashi


R' MB:
And it was of great comfort to this man to think that leshitas Rashi,
his father did make it to Eretz Yisrael in this sense of the term.

Rashi's old French reference seems to refer to the Greek Islands, not
just Cyprus. I would think Sicily and even Sardinia and Corsica too.



Is anyone choshesh for this shittah regarding Terumos, Maaseros, etc.?

KT,
MYG




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Message: 13
From: David Riceman <driceman@att.net>
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 15:13:28 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Borders of Eretz Yisrael - Rashi


Micha Berger wrote:
> Rashi's old French reference seems to refer to the Greek Islands, not
> just Cyprus. I would think Sicily and even Sardinia and Corsica too.
>
>   
How about the western hemisphere?

David Riceman



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Message: 14
From: MPoppers@kayescholer.com
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 21:05:41 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] BhT 4-27:15 (was "Re: Hom........ty")



In Areivim Digest V23#570, RSBA asked:
> PS Talking of the parsha, can anyone explain the Baal Haturim
27:15 <
For the last one-on-one conversation, MRAH was given the "latitude" to be
recorded as speaking in as direct a manner as was normally the case when he
was on the receiving end of a Divine communication.

A guten Shabbes and all the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
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Message: 15
From: "SBA" <sba@sba2.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 00:30:08 +1000
Subject:
[Avodah] "Targum Yonatan"


From: "Dr. Josh Backon" <>
This is  called the Pseudo-Targum. Indeed, it was erroneously attributed to
Yonatan ben Uzziel instead of Targum Yerushalmi. (rashei teivot TAF YUD ).
A good proof that it couldn't have been written by Yonatan ben Uzziel is the
comment in Breishit 21 on the name of the wife of the Muslim prophet 
Muhammad!!
..

Where does the TY mention Muhamed?

SBA 




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Message: 16
From: T613K@aol.com
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 00:08:40 EDT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Tzvei dinim to bitel torah


 
 
>>FWIW, the bit about studying math in the bathroom has to be a  legend.
Outhouses have a nauseating smell and no lighting. You don't sit  there
and read. It's anachronistic, a mental image that is only  plausible
after indoor plumbing.<<

Tir'u  baTov!
-mi



>>>>>
You may be right, but it's possible that people got used to the smell of an  
outhouse, and that cracks in the walls let in enough light to read, at least 
by  day.  Also people used to use chamber pots in their bedrooms, and then  
empty them outside. (My grandmother had a porcelain chamberpot that she brought  
with her to NY from Poland -- it came in  handy in an apartment with only  one 
bathroom, when a small grandchild just couldn't wait.)
 
The following is anecdotal but possible evidence that the Vilna Gaon  /could/ 
have done some reading in the throne room, aka the Little Library.
 
I have a book about famous literary insults and put-downs, and in it there  
is a story about Voltaire.   He wrote to someone he greatly  disliked:  "I am 
sitting in the smallest room in my house.  Your  letter is before me.  
Presently it will be behind me."
 
Voltaire was a contemporary of the Vilna Gaon.


 

--Toby  Katz
=============



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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