Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 142

Thu, 28 Jun 2007

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "Dr. Josh Backon" <backon@vms.huji.ac.il>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 18:38:04 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Treifot question



>The reason for my question was the milk issue. I heard a shiur which in
>essence posited (at least as I understood it since there were parts that
>I did not understand e.g. why the question would be any different for 1
>cow's milk versus 2 or more) that since we've always drank milk, it must
>be that chazal "allowed" us to go after rov [side point- and even if now
>rov were treifot , it would still be ok because they're only rov because
>we're machmir because of lack of knowledge]   To me this meant that
>lshitato  really we should be bodek if we could (just like we don't rely
>on rov for shechita since it's shiach that there are lung issues)so I
>was wondering whether now we really could be bodek live animals (and as
>Dr. Josh alludes to - at what cost)


Rav Ovadiah Yosef in Yabia Omer Chelek 8 Yoreh Deah Siman 2
gives a terrific summary of the inyan of a taarovet of chalav ksheira
with chalav treifa. He does quote the Mordechai and other Rishonim
that the issur of chalav treifa is d'rabbanan!!

See also Har Tzvi  YD 47  and Shach YD 14 s"k 12.

So, if chalav treifa is an issur d'rabbanan then taking into consideration
the Heichal Yitzchak ORACH CHAYIM 51 who permits "bedikot shel
yediot ha'teva" (even to check the status of an issur karet), then certainly
there wouldn't be an halachic problem to check for sirchot by use of
imaging technology. The "only" problem is the prohibitive cost. Do you
really want kosher beef to cost $100 a pound ??

If, however, the terahertz imaging devices plummet in price, then
IMHO it may be worthwhile to check sirchot in lungs (and the tzomet
ha'giddim in chickens) with the new technology.

Another possibility is computer assisted image processing of ultrasound
imaging with expert system pattern recognition. Some of these devices
are quite inexpensive. [Thinking out loud: on a 60 month lease @ $18/M,
the daily cost would be trivial, probably a few cents per cow checked]. I'm
going to send a copy of this message to R. Seth Mandel of the OU. This
could be interesting. It might even SAVE money to the slaughterhouse,
and as a result, to the kosher consumer.

KT

Josh









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Message: 2
From: "Dov Kay" <dov_kay@hotmail.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:59:16 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] Gezeros in the BHMK


RZS wrote:

<<"For that matter, *can* there be gezerot in the BHMK? After all, "ein 
shevut bamikdash"; or are we distinguishing "shevut" which refers only to 
Shabbat, from general gezerot?>>

I am sure that there are more explicit proofs, but I happened to have learnt 
a Tosfos last night which involves a gezera derabbanan with respect to 
korbonos in the BHMK: Tosfos on Pesachim 88a s.v. "ha lo kashya".  This is 
admittedly only a proof if you accept Tosfos' terutz in this case.

Isn't the half-an-hour wait before the tamid shel ben ha'arbaim a proof that 
there were non-sh'vus gezeros derabbanan in the BHMK?

Then there is the question whether this half-an-hour is measured with sha'os 
z'maniyos or sha'os shavos.  The Ohr Meir (by R. Meir Posen of London) cites 
R. Hanoch Ehrentreu of Munich as paskening that it is a fixed 30 minutes, 
while my Rav paskened that it is a variable 30 minutes, ben l'kula ben 
l'chumra.

Kol tuv
Dov Kay

_________________________________________________________________
Picture this  share your photos and you could win big!  
http://www.GETREALPhotoContest.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&;loc=us




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Message: 3
From: "Dov Kay" <dov_kay@hotmail.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:10:42 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] Kos shel Bracha


<<In birkat ha-chodesh, I say, for example, "Rosh chodesh Menachem Av y'hiye 
b'yom sheini *b'Shabbat*". I have not seen this anywhere, but it seems to me 
that designating  a day (even a future one)  as "yom X  b'Shabbat" is a 
kiyyum of  "zachor et yom haShabbat l'kad'sho". >>

Except that the correct nusach is Av, not Menachem Av.  However, see 
http://www.ou.org/publications/ja/5761fall/LEGALEAS.PDF, in which brilliant 
R. A Zivitofsky cites the Aroch HaShulchan that the imprecise "Menachem Av" 
is valid on legal documents. I do not have the AH in front of me, but from 
this citation it appears that this is only b'diavad.

Kol tuv
Dov Kay

_________________________________________________________________
Win tickets to the sold out Live Earth concert!  http://liveearth.uk.msn.com




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Message: 4
From: "Meir Shinnar" <chidekel@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:27:37 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Treifot question


In response to RJB, WRT to MRI imaging of treifot - the lungs are very
difficult to image with MRI (technical issues) - there are now some
techniques available, but doubt that it would be good for this job.
Best lung imaging would be CT scan - however, I don't know whether a
CT scan would have the resolution to detect a very local pleural (sac
surrounding the lung) pathology of a sirha.  A CT may very well detect
pathology in some animals, but the relationship of what is seen to
halachic definition of trefa needs to investigated.  Sirhot (in my
understanding - I never studied hullin or that part of yore deah)
reflect more old scarring rather than active inflammation - and that
can be very difficult to image
I would add that, as mentioned by others, this  would be a
probibitively expensive proposition....
Meir Shinnar



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Message: 5
From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:50:40 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Yeshivishe Peyos


R' Micha Berger wrote:
> I am not sure I agree with this assumption that ahavah is
> more associated with an assei, and yir'ah with a lav. For
> example, I'm more cautious with my wife's feelings than
> with someone I care less about. Is that ahavah or yir'ah?

It seems generally accepted that to translate yir'ah as "fear" is 
simply wrong. Many prefer to translate it as "awe", but my feeling is 
that I don't use that word often enough to have a good handle on what 
it means. Some have suggested "respect", which I like.

But for the current discussion, I'd like to quote someone (sorry I've 
forgotten who) who said that "Yir'as HaShem" is not fear of HaShem 
Himself, but that it refers to a fear of *hurting His feelings* 
(kavyachol).

According to this idea, I would think that yir'ah is most certainly 
associated with lavin. Yirah is my fear of stepping over the line and 
doing something that would offend Him. This ties in closely to RMB's 
comment about being cautious with his wife's feelings. Is there a 
Chazal anywhere which says that it is wrong for a husband to have 
yirah towards his wife? (I hope not.)

Akiva Miller




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Message: 6
From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:54:01 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Gezeros in the BHMK


Dov Kay wrote:
> RZS wrote:
> 
> <<"For that matter, *can* there be gezerot in the BHMK? After all, "ein 
> shevut bamikdash"; or are we distinguishing "shevut" which refers only 
> to Shabbat, from general gezerot?>>
> 
> I am sure that there are more explicit proofs, but I happened to have 
> learnt a Tosfos last night which involves a gezera derabbanan with 
> respect to korbonos in the BHMK: Tosfos on Pesachim 88a s.v. "ha lo 
> kashya".  This is admittedly only a proof if you accept Tosfos' terutz 
> in this case.
> 
> Isn't the half-an-hour wait before the tamid shel ben ha'arbaim a proof 
> that there were non-sh'vus gezeros derabbanan in the BHMK?

That's begging the question.  The question was whether this was a
gezera. I know of no source that it was, and I was suggesting that not
only wasn't it one, but it *couldn't* be one.


> Then there is the question whether this half-an-hour is measured with 
> sha'os z'maniyos or sha'os shavos.  The Ohr Meir (by R. Meir Posen of 
> London) cites R. Hanoch Ehrentreu of Munich as paskening that it is a 
> fixed 30 minutes, while my Rav paskened that it is a variable 30 
> minutes, ben l'kula ben l'chumra.

Bimchilas kevodo, that makes no sense.  The half-hour was to see the
sun (or its shadow) move noticeably from its noon position.  The sun
moves at exactly the same rate regardless of the day's length.  If on
21-Jun the shadow reaches a certain point on the BHMK wall at exactly
30 minutes past noon, then on 21-Dec it will also reach that point at
exactly 30 minutes past noon, and not a moment earlier.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas



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Message: 7
From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:20:48 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kos shel Bracha


Dov Kay wrote:
> <<In birkat ha-chodesh, I say, for example, "Rosh chodesh Menachem Av y'hiye 
> b'yom sheini *b'Shabbat*". I have not seen this anywhere, but it seems to me 
> that designating  a day (even a future one)  as "yom X  b'Shabbat" is a 
> kiyyum of  "zachor et yom haShabbat l'kad'sho". >>
> 
> Except that the correct nusach is Av, not Menachem Av.


See _Igrot Kodesh_ of the LR, vol 2, #275 (dated 1 Menachem-Av 5707):
"The name of the month is Av, and that's how it's written in a get
(see Kav Naki 51:4), but in a ketuba and in birkat hachodesh it's
Menachem-Av."


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas



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Message: 8
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgluck@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:22:04 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Vehoyo einecho ro'oys es Morecho


R' SBA wrote:

> But learning Rashi this week on "Ko'eis ye'omar leYaakov" [23:23], he
quotes
> it (from Yeshaya 30:20) and it clearly refers to HKBH.
> 
> So now I ask, is it right to use this for a bosor vedam?

There is a long tradition of taking Pesukim out of context to make a point.
This is a good example.

KT,
MYG




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Message: 9
From: saul mashbaum <smash52@netvision.net.il>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 21:50:11 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] kinnim


RSSimon:
>>
I've learned that the blood of an animal chatas gets thrown "above 
the line" of the mizbeach, and for an olah, below the line.

Now in Kinnim, I learn that it's the opposite for a bird chatas and olah.

Any thoughts as to why?  Or deeper significance?

>>

RElozor Reich has beaten me to the citation of RSRHirsch I was going to make (see RSRH's commentary to Vayikra 1:14). I think it's fruitful to bring here some more of RSRH's ideas about the symbolic significance of the avian sacrifices from RSRH's commentary there.
Birds are often depicted in Tanach as helpless, pitiful creatures, and the treatment of the bird in the sacrificial procedures reflcts this concept: the bird sacrifice receives rough  treatment which in many ways contrasts with the corresponding much more elgant treatment of animals. Unlike animals which are shechted with knives, birds are subject to melika, in which their necks are crushed directly by the hands of the kohen, a much cruder procedure. The animal is carefully sliced - nituach; the bird is ripped apart - shisuah. The innards of the animal are removed with care and offered on the mizbeach; those of the bird are thrown onto the floor of the azara.    
The bringer of a bird sacrifice is to be seen as one besest with profound troubles which he is essentially helpless to overcome; his life is a life of want and suffering, a miserable existence . One may well think that such a person has no place in the Beit HaMikdash at all; let the prosperous and successful bring animals as sacrifices, and the nebishes, as it were, stay away. One may even think that the great troubles a person is  afflicted with show his essential unworthiness. The bird sacrifice shows that this is not the case, and is an affirmation of the fundamental worth of the unsuccessful, the weak or ill, perhaps the handicapped, in a word, the suffering. It is the classic "accessibility" sacrifice, opening the BhM to the unfortunate.
There are elements of RSRH's commentary, including a phrase which in Hebrew translation is "goral ha-sevel" the fate of suffering, which makes me think that he is hinting that the defenseless suffering bird represents the plight of very many Jews throughout history.  Helpless, despised, beset by enemies much stronger than they, the Jews suffered greatly. Their suffering was interpreted by some of their enemies as a proof of their rejection by the Lord. This is certainly not so; some fulfill their destiny by their very suffering. 
Saul Mashbaum
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Message: 10
From: "Doron Beckerman" <beck072@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:05:54 -0700
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Vehoyo einecho ro'oys es Morecho


Eruvin 13b - Had Rebbe seen R' Meir from  the front he would have been
sharper, Shene'emar, V'Hayu Einecha...
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Message: 11
From: "Daniel Israel" <dmi1@hushmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:07:05 -0600
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Yeshivishe Peyos


On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 11:50:40 -0600 "kennethgmiller@juno.com" 
<kennethgmiller@juno.com> wrote:
>R' Micha Berger wrote:
>> I am not sure I agree with this assumption that ahavah is
>> more associated with an assei, and yir'ah with a lav. For
>> example, I'm more cautious with my wife's feelings than
>> with someone I care less about. Is that ahavah or yir'ah?
>
>But for the current discussion, I'd like to quote someone (sorry 
>I've forgotten who) who said that "Yir'as HaShem" is not fear of 
HaShem 
>Himself, but that it refers to a fear of *hurting His feelings* 
>(kavyachol).
>
>According to this idea, I would think that yir'ah is most 
certainly 
>associated with lavin. Yirah is my fear of stepping over the line 
>and doing something that would offend Him. This ties in closely to 
>RMB's comment about being cautious with his wife's feelings. Is 
there a 
>Chazal anywhere which says that it is wrong for a husband to have 
>yirah towards his wife? (I hope not.)

But this, perhaps, still begs the question.  The way you are 
describing it, yiras HaShem still seems to be associated with a 
situation which may bring onesh.  If I step over the line, he may 
punish me.  With one's wife that shouldn't be the case.  (That is, 
huring one's wife's feelings may have consequences that one might 
fear, but in a healthy marriage that is not the primary motive not 
to hurt her feelings.)

I always made the association more that way, yireh is associated 
with onesh, and ahava with (in the loshen of the mishnah) lo 
l'mikabel schar.  In that light I would say that indirectly there 
is a connection with an assei/lav dichotemy.  Violating a lav 
requires a ma'aseh, and that ma'seh will bring onesh.  So I think 
it is human nature to have more of an emotional connection between 
lavin and onshin than between not doing an assei and losing schar.

To put it another way: human beings are lazy.  The neutral position 
is to do nothing, no lavin, no mitzvos assei.  Yireh will more 
naturally express itself in avoiding lavin, because we are afraid 
of onesh.  Fear of losing schar is more indirect.  Ahava is more 
motivational, and will lead us to want to do something, that is, 
mitzvos asei.  Avoiding lavin from ahava is again a more abstract 
intellectual process.

At least that's how it seems to me.

--
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu




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Message: 12
From: MPoppers@kayescholer.com
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 20:13:35 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] korbonos by mincha gedoyle




In Avodah Digest V23#141, RMK asked (while quoting from a Seifer Halichos
Shlomo footnote):
> Ub'sefer noheig katzon yosef [What is that?] <
A work detailing minhag Frankfurt-am-Main.  According to a book in my
library ("Minhagei Frankfurt" by R' Zvi Yehoshua Leitner), Noheg Katzoan
Joseph was written by R' Joseph Josephi Kashman <elsewhere, I've seen the
surname spelled "Kossman" --MP>, a grandson of the ba'al "Yoseph Ometz,"
and first printed in 5478 (1718 CE).

All the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
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Message: 13
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgluck@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:55:35 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kos Shel Bracha


R' Akiva Miller:
As far as I can imagine, there is no mitzva which -- on a D'Oraisa 
level -- requires us to say certain words over a cup of wine. Wine is 
used in certain korbanos, but so is water, grain, fruit, fowl, and 
many other items. The idea of linking a speech to a kos seems new to 
me.
<SNIP>
What do others think? Am I totally off base, or what?




As per a shiur I heard tonight on our local radio station, Tosfos (Pesachim
106a, s.v. Zochreihu, at the end) hold that it's D'oyraisa. Apparently
Tosfos in other places says this as well, but this was the only Mareh Makom
I caught.

KT,
MYG




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Message: 14
From: Simon Montagu <simon.montagu@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 08:15:52 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Gezeros in the BHMK


Zev Sero wrote:
> Bimchilas kevodo, that makes no sense.  The half-hour was to see the
> sun (or its shadow) move noticeably from its noon position.  The sun
> moves at exactly the same rate regardless of the day's length.  If on
> 21-Jun the shadow reaches a certain point on the BHMK wall at exactly
> 30 minutes past noon, then on 21-Dec it will also reach that point at
> exactly 30 minutes past noon, and not a moment earlier.
> 

I'm not sure that the seifa follows from the reisha. Isn't the "equation 
of time" also a factor here?



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Message: 15
From: "SBA" <sba@sba2.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:59:54 +1000
Subject:
[Avodah] Moav/Midyan


From: "Gershon Dubin" <>
End of this week's parasha:  vayachel ha'am liznos el benos Moav.
Then, vayakrev el echav es haMidyanis;  next week tzaror es haMidyanim.
 First;  second,
>>
??

RGD: I thought (per Rashi in the beginning of the parasha)
that Midyan was out of the picture once Bilam got his initial "no" from
the RbSh"O?

>>

'Es Hamidyanis' - zoogt Rashi: 'Kozbi bas Tzur', with an earlier
Rashi saying that Tzur is Balak - who was originally from Midyan.
(and see Pinchos 25:15)

The Be'er Basodah on Rashi says that while it was the bnos Moav that
started it all, they were joined by the bnos Midyan.
The Ramban says that the whole thing was 'atzas Midyon' and the Alshich
writes 'sheha'ikkar hoyu mibnos Midyan velo Moav..'

Ube'oso inyan, the Ramban has problems with Rashi 25:5 which implies that
150,000 people were killed by the dayonei yisroel at the Baal Peor business
- a quarter of the population! Ayen Shom.

Also, someone showed me an interesting Tshuvas CS (the last in chelek YD)
where he replies to a questioner who asks if there are 13 or 3 ikkarim.

He writes: "lo yodati shum nafkusa ki im krias shem bilvad - uledaas
hamekubolim ein kan ikkar, ki kol kutzim shel Torah hem ikkarim, ma ben zeh
lozeh?"

He writes there that even if, CV, we sinned so much that we will never be
 redeemed, we may not be 'porek ol Malchus shomayim' or change a
'kutzo shel Yud  midivrei Rabonon'

Then he writes that the only section of the Torah that we (or our ancestors)
were not witness to - is the parsha of Balak/Bilom. No one from the Bnei
Yisroel - not even Moshe Rabenu - knew of the conversations and all that
happened between those 2. It is only 'mipeh HKBH' that this was recorded.

Ayen Shom a very interesting Teshuva (which I am not sure how it got into
 that volume of his tshuvos.)

I have scanned the Teshuva and can email upon request.

SBA



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