Avodah Mailing List

Volume 20: Number 10

Thu, 12 Oct 2006

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: fyawitz@actcom.net.il
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 19:26:49 +0200
[Avodah] Secular courts

Does anyone know offhand if there has already been a discussion of the 
prohibition on litigation in secular courts (erkaot) and the various "Rabbis" 
who give out blanket heterim to do so on Avodah?  If anyone knows where to 
look for this on Avodah, I would appreciate if they would email me offlist 
with the information.

(Moderators: If this belongs on Areivim, please bounce it there without me 
having to send it again.)



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Message: 2
From: Chaim G Steinmetz <cgsteinmetz@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:31:02 -0400
[Avodah] Ushpizin and Sheva Berakhos

I see no one answered with sources, therefore:
In the sefer Nisuin Kehilchosom (14:76) he brings varying opinions, some
hold that Chol Hamoed is considered PC (Yefa Levav), and some disagree
(Zchor LeAvrohom, Betzel Hachochmoh and Sovah Semochos).
There is a specific discussion in regards to CH Sukkos that each
particular day should be considered PH (Avodas Yisroel (from maggid of
Koznitz),  Meishiv Halocho), but others disagree - see at length Betzel
Hachochmah v 2:1.
Chaim Gershon Steinmetz

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Message: 3
From: "Dubin Avrohom (Abe) P" <Abe.Dubin@buckconsultants.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:23:29 -0400
[Avodah] Ushpizin and Sheva Berakhos

R' Avrohom Dubin (or was it Gershon writing from someone else's email
account?) wrote:
> The Panim Chadoshos of Shabbos is not the Shabbos
> itself. Rather the people attending the Sheva Brochos
> have a different Panim than they had on Thursday night.

If that were the case, then the people who came for dinner on Friday
night would not count for Shabbos lunch, because they have the same
panim as the night before. You'd need someone who is either totally
new, or had been at a meal other than the Friday night meal. But I
think the halacha does allow using the exact same people for lunch as
on the previous evening.

Akiva Miller

WADR, I anticipated the question. Following is the second paragraph of my post:
"The reason why you don't need Panim Chadoshos on Shabbos morning is generally assumed to be based on an Arizal who says that an extra measure of Neshama Yeseira comes to a person who says Nishmas properly. Again, it is the person's extra neshama that qualifies."
The practice of using the same people morning and night is proof to my position.

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Message: 4
From: "Joel Rich" <JRich@Segalco.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:27:41 CDT
Re: [Avodah] 12 steps

  Micha - interesting about the shiur tape - I recently did a search on YUTORAH  and found gambling related shiurim but nothing on addiction or alcoholism.  If anyone knows of any shiurim (any media) I'd be interested.


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Message: 5
From: T613K@aol.com
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:43:00 EDT
Re: [Avodah] Schooling for women (was 12 steps)


>>So, when did the Jewish nation take on the surrounding  non-Jewish 
influence that led to keeping women (mostly) ignorant? Why is it so  popular even 
today, when we know that this is not the idea behind "Ko Tomar  LeBeit 

Shoshana L. Boublil
Ko tomar lebeit Yakov, I think you meant to say.  (Don't worry, we all  slip 
As for the beginning of that paragraph -- the Gemara itself says that women  
are not supposed to be taught Torah sheba'al peh.   
I think that anyone who says that that Gemara is not Torah miSinai --  but is 
only a response to the surrounding culture of its time -- has  herself been 
influenced by the "surrounding non-Jewish influence" of /our/  time.
There have been very learned woman, but in each case -- be it  Devorah or 
Bruriah -- she was very much an exception to the general run of  Jewish women.  
How many female shoftim have there been?  One.   How many female tannaim? One.  
(If Bruriah counts.)  

So while there does seem to be an allowance made for the exceptional  
circumstance, it is not the norm for women to be talmidei chachamim.    Their 
exemption from the mitzva of limud Torah (except for the specific halachos  they need 
to know) is, BTW, related to their exemption from other mitzvos that  would 
interfere with their higher duties -- raising the next generation of  Jews.

--Toby  Katz

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Message: 6
From: "Rich, Joel" <JRich@Segalco.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:06:52 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Chazarta Hashas.

> : Is anyone aware of any written sources that allow learning during 
> chazarat
> : hashatz?

 Look at Igros Moshe, Orech Chaim Chelek Daled, Siman Yud Tes.

Yes- In which he prohibits it - but differentiates between if 10 aren't
listening (there it's mdina) versus if 10 are listening(then can't do
since others may learn from you and not answer amen)

So again - any sources that say it is OK? If not, why do we see people
doing it and not being corrected?

Joel Rich 

A follow on question - it seems (correct me if I'm wrong) that the
universal minhag is that people (including rabbanim) who wear tfillin on
chol hamoed take them off during chazarat hashatz and also prepare their
4 minim (even leaving the room to get them) during the same time period.
I wonder why there is not a similar concern as above?

Moadim Lsimcha
Joel Rich
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Message: 7
From: "Meir Shinnar" <chidekel@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:58:50 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Rav Keller's JO article on evolution

> But because of your reisha, I disagree with your seifa. Yes, the Torah
> expressed some truths allegorically. However, there is no indication that
> the
> Rambam held this was possibly true even of statements for which we have no
> mesorah indicating allegory. The Me'iri limits allegorization in this way,
> and
> they way I took that pereq (a few phrases) in the MN, the Rambam agrees.
> But
> even without that text, there is no proof he is choleiq; it would be an
> argument from silence.

1. We seem to be reargue.  The rambam is extremely explicit about not having
a mesora (Eg, ma'amar techiyat hametim)
Ma'amar techiyat hametim (Shilat edition)

know that these prophecies and similar matters that we say that they are
allegorical - our word in them is not a decree, that we did not receive a
prophecy from hashem that will tell us that it is an allegory, nor did we
have a tradition for one of the sages from the prophets who will explain
these  details are allegorical.

Rather, what brought us to  that is the our effort and the the effort of
every man of wisdom (of the few) - the reverse of the effort of the
multitude.   That the multitude of the the followers of torah, what is
beloved of them and tasty to their folly, that they will put torah and
as two opposite poles, and will derive everything separate from the
reasonable, and will say that it is a miracle, and will flee from thngs
natural, not in what is told about what happened in the past, nor what he
will see now, nor what is said that will happen.  And our efforts our to
gather between the torah and the reasonable, and will manage all things
accroding to a possible natural order, except what is specifically explained

that it is a miracle (mofet) and it is impossible to explain it otherwise,
then we will need to say that it is a miracle

See also hakdama to more nevuchim, (p 6 in Qafih edition)
vechalal ma'amar ze inyan acher, vehu beur inyan meshalim stumim meod
shene'emru besifre haneviim velo nitparesh bahem mashal, ela yera'e lasachal
velapeti shehem kipshatam

the purpose is to show allegory where there is no inidication that it is an
allegory (and no indication includes no indication in the mesora, as this is
addressed to someone versed in the mesora...)

One simple proof- can you find any remez in the mesora that the beginning of
parshat va'yera did not occur in reality but only in neuva.....(in R
Lichtenstein's article, he uses this rambam as proof for the acceptability
(not necessarily desirability..) of using allegory)

(one could argue that the rambam may be limiting the use of allegories when
there is an explicit accepted mesora that something is not allegorical - but
that is a very different argument)

However, you are stating about the Meiri - my recollection of the Meiri is
different (will, b"n, bring sources) - do you have a citation for this
Remember that the Meiri defended chachme Provence, including the radical
aristotelians with an aggressive allegorical approach, against the rashba -
even if he didn't agree with the radical allegorization, he didn't write
them out..
Meir Shinnar
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Message: 8
From: "Mike Wiesenberg" <torahmike@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:23:23 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Schooling for women

 I wouldn't call it a 'fear of women learning torah.' There's  a 'fear'  of
violating the halacha(which b'h still exists even today!), as , the Rambam
is pretty clear
in Hilchos Talmud Torah 1:16-17(Halacha 13 in Frankel) that one should not
teach girls torah(He does mention a fear that they will be motzai divrei
torah ledivrei havai). As to the question of when, the Rambam is pretty much
quoting/explaining the gemora.
  Who said this is against "ko tomar.." ? Are you accusing the
Rambam/Gemora/Shulchan Aruch of being against that pasuk? And of paskening
based on  'non-Jewish influence' ? That's a pretty serious charge. That
pasuk perhaps is referring to hakhel , which the Bach points out is
different, since it is not derech keva.
  As for the various nevios and other learned women in the gemora, those are
exceptions to the rule - and they might have learned on their own initiative
anyhow, which is not what this halacha is talking about(As the Prisha points
  (Please note I am not coming out here against women learning torah at all
b'zman hazeh , of course. It is now considered a thoroughly necessary sha'as
hadchak, in most people's opinion. I am merely responding to the poster's


>>So, when did the Jewish nation take on the surrounding non-Jewish
influence that led to keeping women (mostly) ignorant? Why is it so popular
even today, when we know that this is not the idea behind "Ko Tomar LeBeit

If Hashem created the world and everything in it, and He gave the Torah, why
the fear of women learning Torah that exists even today?<<
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Message: 9
From: "Daniel Israel" <dmi1@hushmail.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:52:52 -0600
Re: [Avodah] Schooling for women (was 12 steps)

On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 00:35:32 -0600 "Shoshana L. Boublil" 
<toramada@bezeqint.net> wrote:
>I must say that this has always bothered me. The idea that 
>teaching women Yiddishkeit in an organized way is only b/c of 
>"sha'at had'chak".
>Even more so, after learning the G'mara that in the time of 
>Chizkiya, when they checked, they couldn't find a "Tinok o 
>Tinoket" who didn't know all Torah SheBe'al Peh including Tohorot.
>We also have the examples in the G'mara of the various educated 

From where do you conclude that any of this learning/teaching was 
"in an organized way"?

Daniel M. Israel

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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 21:37:10 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Ushpizin and Sheva Berakhos

On Wed, Oct 11, 2006 at 08:59:21AM +0200, Akiva Blum wrote:
: Dovid Hamelech in this case is the only one who couldn't take a
: brocho. His is the last day, so since the wedding was before YT, SB
: are over.

It depends which order one has the Ushpizin in. I know of three: Yoseif at
the end, in spherotic order; Yoseif after Yaaqov, historical order; and
Shelomo instead of Yoseif, at the end, in both historical and spherotic
order (as well as matching Mi sheBeirakh). While using Shelomo seems to
have so much going for it, one loses the duality of malkhus beis David
(Leah) vs malkhus beis Yoseif (Rachel), and thus some of the qabbalistic

Tir'u beTov!

Micha Berger             With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns
micha@aishdas.org        G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four
http://www.aishdas.org   corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets
Fax: (270) 514-1507      to include himself.     - Rav Yisrael Salanter

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Message: 11
From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 01:12:44 GMT
Re: [Avodah] Chazarta Hashas

R' Joel Rich responded to my comments, writing:
> So are you saying that everyone is relying on
> what seems to be a clearly rejected opinion which
> at best says we don't stop them (again is there
> anyone who says it is OK to do?)

Oh, now I understand your question better. You wanted to know if 
there is anyone *nowadays* who says it is OK to do so.

Sorry, the best I could come up with was the Teshuvos Mem Ayin, which 
we see was rejected. But, one must admit, a rejected daas yachid is 
better than nothing.

(Actually, now that I think of it, I remember once one of my rebbeim 
said that a rejected daas yachid is *not* better than nothing. I 
think his words might have been, "If only one posek says so, then 
it's not even a daas yachid.")

Akiva Miller


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