Avodah Mailing List

Volume 17 : Number 107

Wednesday, August 23 2006

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:37:18 -0400
From: "Moshe Yehuda Gluck" <mgluck@gmail.com>
RE: tzedakah for non-Jews

This is seriously overdue, but I saw that R' Elchonon Wasserman in Kovetz
Shiurim on the sugya of Bava Basra 10b-11a clearly learned differently then
what I thought was pashut in the sugya, and he brings various rishonim, some
of which were also germane to a parallel discussion regarding the halachic
status of the Avos. Ayin sham v'timtza nachas.


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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 00:42:25 -0400
From: hankman <salman@videotron.ca>
RE: Putting oneself in danger

RJR wrote:
> ... the "halachot" of war differ from what's found in shulchan
> aruch/poskim on seemingly related issues ....

> ... R' Ro-ie H"YD he was a ben torah and talmid chacham. Thus his
> instincts were most likely informed by the "lev shel torah" ....

> May we never be faced with such shailot ...

My heart wants to agree with you as I think you are probably right after
all is said and done. And rather than refer to R' Ro-ie I will refer to
a generic Reuven in the following. My mind wonders the following. If
we accept your assertion (which I believe many poskim follow) that these
dinim are different in time of war, then the question is how far do they
take that? Normally this refers to eating treifos and chilul Shabbos
etc., as well as killing the enemy and subjecting yourself to pikuach
nefesh. You are adding suicide to this list. Would you take this even one
step further in the following case? If under the same circumstances but
for the difference that instead of Reuvain committing suicide to further
the war aims, Reuvain R'L has to kill his fellow soldier (or civilian)
Shimon to further the war aims, would even this be permitted under the
rules of war? During the Holocaust people were R'L faced with such issues
e.g.. people hiding with a baby that would cry and give them away etc.,
or to prevent some intelligence from being revealed.

The other question would be, do you have to actually further the war
aims by your act or is just the fact that the act takes place during a
war enough? I imagine we would all agree that you can not commit cold
blooded murder under the cover of war. So clearly some connection to the
war is necessary, not mere simultaneity. So if Reuvain saves his platoon
at the cost of his life we can clearly see a war aim accomplished. It
is less obvious if he saves only one soldier at the cost of his life
especially if Reuvain is more valuable to the war effort than the soldier
he saved. Then the war becomes irrelevant and all we are left with is
simultaneity and a noble self sacrifice unrelated to the war. What then?

A simplistic approach might be that in order to be at your best to the war
effort, your entire wits must be directed exclusively to the war effort
without any distractions. To have to analyze every action through the
lens of Shulchan Aruch would be too distracting to your concentration
and your efficacy in the war effort would suffer or at worst it could
be paralyzing. Thus you would be required to prosecute the war to the
best of your ability without indulging in the luxury of clairing any
shailos. Is this too far reaching? Clearly there are an entire set of
halochos governing war, so what is their point if you do not have to
consider them when prosecuting the war?

In parshas Matos I noticed a vort in Torah Lodas from the Panim Yafos
that does clair such shailos. The Yalkut on Vayitzbu al Midyan ... They
surrounded them on four sides. R. Nosson says they left the fourth side
open "kedai sheyivrechu," so that they c[s]hould run away. He asks why
should R. Nosson allow them to get away? He answers, that their was a
miyut of Moavim in the land of Midyan. While in the city under siege even
though they were rov Midyanim, because they would be considered kovua,
and kol kovua cemachtze al mechtze dami then every time they would try
to kill an enemy there would be a safek hashakul, is he a Midyani or a
Moavi and they could not kill him. But if they ran from the open side,
then they were porush meruba and they could go basar rov and assume he
was a Midyani and kill him.

They were prosecuting war and still clairing shailos :-).

Kol Tuv
Chaim Manaster

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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:25:10 -0400
From: "Rich, Joel" <JRich@Segalco.com>
Ruba dleta kaman

A long time Avodah favorite!

I just came across the following in Minchat Asher Vol 2 - After quoting
the shaagat aryeh that by akum we don't follow rov and the maharam
shik's question then how can we have arayot by akum (I assume since we
hold rov beilot achar habaal) he says:

""ubiarti druba dleta kamman havei kvadai gamur vein bo safek vshanei
biyisod gidro mruba dita kamman, dyisod din ruba dleta kamman nemar rak
brov bteva haolam viinyano sheal lanu lachshosh lmikrim charigim ela
aleinu lhityaches lmorot kilu hofiu bfaneinu"

More grist for the mathematicians, statisticians and even the actuaries
amongst us.

Joel Rich

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Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:42:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>

[I am now in Ben Gurion after the trip described in
<http://neshamahgeological.blogspot.com>. My apologies for taking so
long to get it out. -mi]

I wasn't going to post about this as it involves something in my life
which is quite personal. But at my daughter's request. I am doing so now.

Last week my daughter, son in law, and their 3 sons who currently
live in St. Louis decided to spend their summer vacation in Chicago.
Last Thursday after a noticing some discomfort in her middle son's arm,
my daughter decided to take him to a pediatrician to check it out. After
the appointment an afternoon of fun planned for the family and then they
looked forward to concluding their vacation with two very large family
Shabbos meals, one with our extended family; the other with my son in
law's extended family.

As we waited for my daughter to come back, I received a call, from
my daughter crying hysterically. She told me an X-ray was taken and
they suspect a tumor. They believed my grandson was afflicted with
bone cancer. Upon receiving this call, my knees buckled and I could
barely stand up. I could not believe my ears. What was supposed to be
a nice ending to a pleasant vacation turned into a horrible moment.
Everything in my world changed at that moment. I could barely retain my
composure. I am not the kind of father that can be a rock under trying
and emotional moments. I react. No one expected this. It happened so
suddenly. And it shocked us all! The pediatrician suggested that they
immediately return to St Louis and deal with the situation there.

Within an hour or so, they were all packed. Moments later they left to
return back to their home in St Louis.

My grandson was checked into a children's hospital and had an MRI. It
was determined that the probability of bone cancer is at about ninety
percent. We are all very worried. I have not stopped thinking about
it. The biopsy is about to take place (within the hour). And a bone
scan is scheduled after that to see if it spread. Of course there is
still a ten percent chance that it is nothing more than an infection.
And that is what we are all hoping for. But we are also very realistic
about our expectations.

I would ask that anyone who can to please Daven for a Refuah Shelaima
for my grandson, Ruevein Ben Tova Chaya.

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