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Volume 11 : Number 010

Monday, May 12 2003

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 11:15:19 -0400
From: "Gil Student" <gil@aishdas.org>
Re: Nefilas Apayim

R' Shalom Berger wrote:
>If this is true, then a person would not have to separate
>between one's arm and one's face, rather between one's
>face and the floor, which could be done by doing Nefilas
>Apayim on a wooden table or chair, even on one's bare

FWIW, the why I always understood this is as above except that one's bare
arm is not considered a separation between one's face and the floor.
Thus, one can do nefilas apayim on a bare arm that is resting on a
schooldesk or a chair because the desk or chair are the real separation.
I don't know if any poskim have discussed this, though.

Gil Student

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Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 08:42:33 +0300
From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
Re: Nefilas Apayim

On 6 May 2003 at 23:10, Micha Berger wrote:
>: According to the Mishna Berura (OH 131:3) this is because one must
>: cover his face - "Yechaseh Panav" - which would not be accomplished with
>: one's bare arm which is part of the same body as one's face..

> Isn't the point of NA is because tachanunim ought to be accomponied
> with bechiyah? Why is bechiyah any more real if the kisui is with a
> shirt-sleeve rather than one's arm?

I always understood the necessity for a shirt-sleeve/jacket as being
caused by the necessity to avoid touching m'komos ha'mtunafim (in this
case places that produce sweat).

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Go to top.

Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 07:43:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Malcolm Schosha <malcolmschosha@yahoo.com>
Ben Franklin's "cheshbon ha-nefesh"

[Forwarded with permission of the author, who had put an offer on another
email list to email privately to all askers. (It was too long for posting
on that list.) Kindly CC Malcolm on any replies.

[There are some parts that are only readible in a fixed-width font. If
you're not using one, try Courier.

[As RYGB has discussed BF's role in the history of the sefer Cheshbon
haNefesh, I thought this would be on interest. Also interesting is the
similarity between BF's 13 middos and RYS's. -mi]

Below is an extract from Benjanin Franklin's autobiography describing
his approach to personal account taking. Not having read Rabbi Leffin's
book on this subject, I can not make a comparison. At the least, the
"flavor" would be (I am sure) quite different.


It was about this time I conceiv'd the bold and arduous project of
arriving at moral perfection. I wish'd to live without committing any
fault at any time; I would conquer all that either natural inclination,
custom, or company might lead me into. As I knew, or thought I knew,
what was right and wrong, I did not see why I might not always do the
one and avoid the other. But I soon found I had undertaken a task
of more difficulty than I bad imagined. While my care was employ'd
in guarding against one fault, I was often surprised by another; habit
took the advantage of inattention; inclination was sometimes too strong
for reason. I concluded, at length, that the mere speculative conviction
that it was our interest to be completely virtuous, was not sufficient
to prevent our slipping; and that the contrary habits must be broken,
and good ones acquired and established, before we can have any dependence
on a steady, uniform rectitude of conduct. For this purpose I therefore
contrived the following method.

In the various enumerations of the moral virtues I had met with in
my reading, I found the catalogue more or less numerous, as different
writers included more or fewer ideas under the same name. Temperance,
for example, was by some confined to eating and drinking, while by
others it was extended to mean the moderating every other pleasure,
appetite, inclination, or passion, bodily or mental, even to our avarice
and ambition. I propos'd to myself, for the sake of clearness, to use
rather more names, with fewer ideas annex'd to each, than a few names with
more ideas; and I included under thirteen names of virtues all that at
that time occurr'd to me as necessary or desirable, and annexed to each
a short precept, which fully express'd the extent I gave to its meaning.

These names of virtues, with their precepts, were:

1. TEMPERANCE. Eat not to dullness; drink not to elevation.

2. SILENCE. Speak not but what may benefit others or yourself; avoid
trifling conversation.

3. ORDER. Let all your things have their places; let each part of your
business have its time.

4. RESOLUTION. Resolve to perform what you ought; perform without fail
what you resolve.

5. FRUGALITY. Make no expense but to do good to others or yourself;
i.e., waste nothing.

6. INDUSTRY. Lose no time; be always employ'd in something useful;
cut off all unnecessary actions.

7. SINCERITY. Use no hurtful deceit; think innocently and justly, and,
if you speak, speak accordingly.

8. JUSTICE. Wrong none by doing injuries, or omitting the benefits
that are your duty.

9. MODERATION. Avoid extreams; forbear resenting injuries so much as
you think they deserve.

10. CLEANLINESS. Tolerate no uncleanliness in body, cloaths, or

11. TRANQUILLITY. Be not disturbed at trifles, or at accidents common
or unavoidable.

12. CHASTITY. Rarely use venery but for health or offspring, never
to dulness, weakness, or the injury of your own or another's peace
or reputation.

13. HUMILITY. Imitate Jesus and Socrates.

My intention being to acquire the habitude of all these virtues, I judg'd
it would be well not to distract my attention by attempting the whole
at once, but to fix it on one of them at a time; and, when I should be
master of that, then to proceed to another, and so on, till I should
have gone thro' the thirteen; and, as the previous acquisition of some
might facilitate the acquisition of certain others, I arrang'd them with
that view, as they stand above. Temperance first, as it tends to procure
that coolness and clearness of head, which is so necessary where constant
vigilance was to be kept up, and guard maintained against the unremitting
attraction of ancient habits, and the force of perpetual temptations.
This being acquir'd and establish'd, Silence would be more easy; and my
desire being to gain knowledge at the same time that I improv'd in virtue,
and considering that in conversation it was obtain'd rather by the use
of the ears than of the tongue, and therefore wishing to break a habit
I was getting into of prattling, punning, and joking, which only made me
acceptable to trifling company, I gave Silence the second place. This and
the next, Order, I expected would allow me more time for attending to
my project and my studies. Resolution, once become habitual, would keep
me firm in my endeavors to obtain all the subsequent virtues; Frugality
and Industry freeing me from my remaining debt, and producing affluence
and independence, would make more easy the practice of Sincerity and
Justice, etc., etc. Conceiving then, that, agreeably to the advice of
Pythagoras in his Golden Verses, daily examination would be necessary,
I contrived the following method for conducting that examination.

I made a little book, in which I allotted a page for each of the virtues.
I rul'd each page with red ink, so as to have seven columns, one for
each day of the week, marking each column with a letter for the day.
I cross'd these columns with thirteen red lines, marking the beginning
of each line with the first letter of one of the virtues, on which line,
and in its proper column, I might mark, by a little black spot, every
fault I found upon examination to have been committed respecting that
virtue upon that day.

Form of the pages.

           |              TEMPERANCE.      |
           |       EAT NOT TO DULNESS;     |
           |     DRINK NOT TO ELEVATION.   |
           |   | S.| M.| T.| W.| T.| F.| S.|
           | T.|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
           | S.| * | * |   | * |   | * |   |
           | O.| **| * | * |   | * | * | * |
           | R.|   |   | * |   |   | * |   |
           | F.|   | * |   |   | * |   |   |
           | I.|   |   | * |   |   |   |   |
           | S.|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
           | J.|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
           | M.|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
           | C.|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
           | T.|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
           | C.|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
           | H.|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |

I determined to give a week's strict attention to each of the virtues
successively. Thus, in the first week, my great guard was to avoid every
the least offence against Temperance, leaving the other virtues to their
ordinary chance, only marking every evening the faults of the day. Thus,
if in the first week I could keep my first line, marked T, clear of spots,
I suppos'd the habit of that virtue so much strengthen'd and its opposite
weaken'd, that I might venture extending my attention to include the next,
and for the following week keep both lines clear of spots. Proceeding
thus to the last, I could go thro' a course compleat in thirteen weeks,
and four courses in a year. And like him who, having a garden to weed,
does not attempt to eradicate all the bad herbs at once, which would
exceed his reach and his strength, but works on one of the beds at a
time, and, having accomplish'd the first, proceeds to a second, so I
should have, I hoped, the encouraging pleasure of seeing on my pages the
progress I made in virtue, by clearing successively my lines of their
spots, till in the end, by a number of courses, I should he happy in
viewing a clean book, after a thirteen weeks' daily examination.

This my little book had for its motto these lines from Addison's Cato:

          "Here will I hold. If there's a power above us (And that
          there is all nature cries aloud Thro' all her works), He must
          delight in virtue; And that which he delights in must be happy."

Another from Cicero,

          "O vitae Philosophia dux! O virtutum indagatrix expultrixque
          vitiorum! Unus dies, bene et ex praeceptis tuis actus, peccanti
          immortalitati est anteponendus."

Another from the Proverbs of Solomon, speaking of wisdom or virtue:

          "Length of days is in her right hand, and in her left hand
          riches and honour. Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and
          all her paths are peace." iii. 16, 17.

And conceiving God to be the fountain of wisdom, I thought it right
and necessary to solicit his assistance for obtaining it; to this end I
formed the following little prayer, which was prefix'd to my tables of
examination, for daily use.

"O powerful Goodness! bountiful Father! merciful Guide! increase in me
that wisdom which discovers my truest interest. strengthen my resolutions
to perform what that wisdom dictates. Accept my kind offices to thy other
children as the only return in my power for thy continual favors to me."

I used also sometimes a little prayer which I took from Thomson's Poems,

          "Father of light and life, thou Good Supreme!
          O teach me what is good; teach me Thyself!
          Save me from folly, vanity, and vice,
          From every low pursuit; and fill my soul
          With knowledge, conscious peace, and virtue pure;
          Sacred, substantial, never-fading bliss!"

The precept of Order requiring that every part of my business should have
its allotted time, one page in my little book contain'd the following
scheme of employment for the twenty-four hours of a natural day:

     THE MORNING.            {  5 } Rise, wash, and address
                             {    } Powerful Goodness!  Contrive
Question.  What good  shall  {  6 } day's business, and take the
I do this day?               {    } resolution of the day; prose-
                             {  7 } cute the present study, and
                             {    } breakfast.
                                8 }
                                9 } Work.
                               10 }
                               11 }

     NOON.                   { 12 } Read, or overlook my ac-
                             {  1 } counts, and dine.
                                2 }
                                3 } Work.
                                4 }
                                5 }

     EVENING.                {  6 } Put things in their places.
                             {  7 } Supper.  Music or diversion,
Question.  What good have    {  8 } or conversation.  Examination
I done to-day?               {  9 } of the day.
                             { 10 }
                             { 11 }
                             { 12 }

     NIGHT.                  {  1 } Sleep.
                             {  2 }
                             {  3 }
                             {  4 }

I enter'd upon the execution of this plan for self-examination,
and continu'd it with occasional intermissions for some time. I was
surpris'd to find myself so much fuller of faults than I had imagined;
but I had the satisfaction of seeing them diminish. To avoid the trouble
of renewing now and then my little book, which, by scraping out the marks
on the paper of old faults to make room for new ones in a new course,
became full of holes, I transferr'd my tables and precepts to the ivory
leaves of a memorandum book, on which the lines were drawn with red ink,
that made a durable stain, and on those lines I mark'd my faults with a
black-lead pencil, which marks I could easily wipe out with a wet sponge.
After a while I went thro' one course only in a year, and afterward
only one in several years, till at length I omitted them entirely,
being employ'd in voyages and business abroad, with a multiplicity of
affairs that interfered; but I always carried my little book with me.

My scheme of ORDER gave me the most trouble; and I found that, tho' it
might be practicable where a man's business was such as to leave him the
disposition of his time, that of a journeyman printer, for instance, it
was not possible to be exactly observed by a master, who must mix with
the world, and often receive people of business at their own hours.
Order, too, with regard to places for things, papers, etc., I found
extreamly difficult to acquire. I had not been early accustomed to it,
and, having an exceeding good memory, I was not so sensible of the
inconvenience attending want of method. This article, therefore, cost
me so much painful attention, and my faults in it vexed me so much, and
I made so little progress in amendment, and had such frequent relapses,
that I was almost ready to give up the attempt, and content myself with
a faulty character in that respect, like the man who, in buying an ax
of a smith, my neighbour, desired to have the whole of its surface as
bright as the edge. The smith consented to grind it bright for him if
he would turn the wheel; he turn'd, while the smith press'd the broad
face of the ax hard and heavily on the stone, which made the turning of
it very fatiguing. The man came every now and then from the wheel to
see how the work went on, and at length would take his ax as it was,
without farther grinding. "No," said the smith, "turn on, turn on; we
shall have it bright by-and-by; as yet, it is only speckled." "Yes,"
said the man, "but I think I like a speckled ax best." And I believe
this may have been the case with many, who, having, for want of some
such means as I employ'd, found the difficulty of obtaining good and
breaking bad habits in other points of vice and virtue, have given up
the struggle, and concluded that "a speckled ax was best"; for something,
that pretended to be reason, was every now and then suggesting to me that
such extream nicety as I exacted of myself might be a kind of foppery in
morals, which, if it were known, would make me ridiculous; that a perfect
character might be attended with the inconvenience of being envied and
hated; and that a benevolent man should allow a few faults in himself,
to keep his friends in countenance.

In truth, I found myself incorrigible with respect to Order; and now I
am grown old, and my memory bad, I feel very sensibly the want of it.
But, on the whole, tho' I never arrived at the perfection I had been
so ambitious of obtaining, but fell far short of it, yet I was, by the
endeavour, a better and a happier man than I otherwise should have
been if I had not attempted it; as those who aim at perfect writing
by imitating the engraved copies, tho' they never reach the wish'd-for
excellence of those copies, their hand is mended by the endeavor, and
is tolerable while it continues fair and legible.

It may be well my posterity should be informed that to this
little artifice, with the blessing of God, their ancestor ow'd the
constant felicity of his life, down to his 79th year, in which this
is written.  What reverses may attend the remainder is in the hand
of Providence; but, if they arrive, the reflection on past happiness
enjoy'd ought to help his bearing them with more resignation. 
To Temperance he ascribes his long-continued health, and what is
still left to him of a good constitution; to Industry and Frugality,
the early easiness of his circumstances and acquisition of his fortune,
with all that knowledge that enabled him to be a useful citizen,
and obtained for him some degree of reputation among the learned;
to Sincerity and Justice, the confidence of his country,
and the honorable employs it conferred upon him; and to the joint
influence of the whole mass of the virtues, even in the imperfect
state he was able to acquire them, all that evenness of temper,
and that cheerfulness in conversation, which makes his company
still sought for, and agreeable even to his younger acquaintance. 
I hope, therefore, that some of my descendants may follow the example
and reap the benefit.

It will be remark'd that, tho' my scheme was not wholly without
religion, there was in it no mark of any of the distingishing tenets
of any particular sect. I had purposely avoided them; for, being fully
persuaded of the utility and excellency of my method, and that it might be
serviceable to people in all religions, and intending some time or other
to publish it, I would not have any thing in it that should prejudice
any one, of any sect, against it. I purposed writing a little comment on
each virtue, in which I would have shown the advantages of possessing it,
and the mischiefs attending its opposite vice; and I should have called
my book THE ART OF VIRTUE,<7> because it would have shown the means and
manner of obtaining virtue, which would have distinguished it from the
mere exhortation to be good, that does not instruct and indicate the
means, but is like the apostle's man of verbal charity, who only without
showing to the naked and hungry how or where they might get clothes or
victuals, exhorted them to be fed and clothed.--James ii. 15, 16.

     <7> Nothing so likely to make a man's fortune as virtue.
         --[Marg. note.]

But it so happened that my intention of writing and publishing this
comment was never fulfilled. I did, indeed, from time to time, put down
short hints of the sentiments, reasonings, etc., to be made use of in it,
some of which I have still by me; but the necessary close attention to
private business in the earlier part of thy life, and public business
since, have occasioned my postponing it; for, it being connected in my
mind with a great and extensive project, that required the whole man
to execute, and which an unforeseen succession of employs prevented my
attending to, it has hitherto remain'd unfinish'd.

In this piece it was my design to explain and enforce this doctrine,
that vicious actions are not hurtful because they are forbidden, but
forbidden because they are hurtful, the nature of man alone considered;
that it was, therefore, every one's interest to be virtuous who wish'd to
be happy even in this world; and I should, from this circumstance (there
being always in the world a number of rich merchants, nobility, states,
and princes, who have need of honest instruments for the management of
their affairs, and such being so rare), have endeavored to convince
young persons that no qualities were so likely to make a poor man's
fortune as those of probity and integrity.

My list of virtues contain'd at first but twelve; but a Quaker friend
having kindly informed me that I was generally thought proud; that my
pride show'd itself frequently in conversation; that I was not content
with being in the right when discussing any point, but was overbearing,
and rather insolent, of which he convinc'd me by mentioning several
instances; I determined endeavouring to cure myself, if I could, of
this vice or folly among the rest, and I added Humility to my list)
giving an extensive meaning to the word.

I cannot boast of much success in acquiring the reality of this virtue,
but I had a good deal with regard to the appearance of it. I made it
a rule to forbear all direct contradiction to the sentiments of others,
and all positive assertion of my own. I even forbid myself, agreeably
to the old laws of our Junto, the use of every word or expression in the
language that imported a fix'd opinion, such as certainly, undoubtedly,
etc., and I adopted, instead of them, I conceive, I apprehend, or
I imagine a thing to be so or so; or it so appears to me at present.
When another asserted something that I thought an error, I deny'd myself
the pleasure of contradicting him abruptly, and of showing immediately
some absurdity in his proposition; and in answering I began by observing
that in certain cases or circumstances his opinion would be right, but
in the present case there appear'd or seem'd to me some difference, etc.
I soon found the advantage of this change in my manner; the conversations
I engag'd in went on more pleasantly. The modest way in which I propos'd
my opinions procur'd them a readier recep tion and less contradiction;
I had less mortification when I was found to be in the wrong, and I more
easily prevail'd with others to give up their mistakes and join with me
when I happened to be in the right.

And this mode, which I at first put on with some violence to natural
inclination, became at length so easy, and so habitual to me, that perhaps
for these fifty years past no one has ever heard a dogmatical expression
escape me. And to this habit (after my character of integrity) I think it
principally owing that I had early so much weight with my fellow-citizens
when I proposed new institutions, or alterations in the old, and so much
influence in public councils when I became a member; for I was but a bad
speaker, never eloquent, subject to much hesitation in my choice of words,
hardly correct in language, and yet I generally carried my points.

In reality, there is, perhaps, no one of our natural passions so hard
to subdue as pride. Disguise it, struggle with it, beat it down, stifle
it, mortify it as much as one pleases, it is still alive, and will every
now and then peep out and show itself; you will see it, perhaps, often
in this history; for, even if I could conceive that I had compleatly
overcome it, I should probably be proud of my humility.

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Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 17:34:49 -0400
From: kennethgmiller@juno.com
Re: Writing a Sefer Torah

Several people have referred to "relying on the Rosh", and it sounds to
me like they mean the idea that one can do this mitzvah by buying seforim.

Isn't there also a shita that one can stand by a sofer as he writes a
letter *as* *your* *shaliach*, and you can be yotzay in this manner? I
don't know whose shita this is, but I know that at least twice in my life,
I have participated in this at various shuls.

Akiva Miller

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Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 21:49:37 +0000
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Re: Nefilas Apayim

On Wed, May 07, 2003 at 08:42:33AM +0300, Carl and Adina Sherer wrote:
:>: According to the Mishna Berura (OH 131:3) this is because one must
:>: cover his face - "Yechaseh Panav" - which would not be accomplished with
:>: one's bare arm which is part of the same body as one's face..

:> Isn't the point of NA is because tachanunim ought to be accomponied
:> with bechiyah? Why is bechiyah any more real if the kisui is with a
:> shirt-sleeve rather than one's arm?

: I always understood the necessity for a shirt-sleeve/jacket as being
: caused by the necessity to avoid touching m'komos ha'mtunafim (in this
: case places that produce sweat).

Your explanation avoids my question, but does so at the expense of not
being the MB's given reason.


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Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 21:43:22 -0400
From: Yisrael Dubitsky <Yidubitsky@JTSA.EDU>
Re: Nefilas Apayim

>It seems that the Magen Avraham is suggesting that falling on one's bare 
>arm would not solve
>the "Even Maskit" problem (this is the explanation of the Levushei Srad
>at the beginning of Siman 131) since the face and the arm are part of
>the same body. If this is true, then a person would not have to separate
>between one's arm and one's face, rather between one's face and the floor,
>which could be done by doing Nefilas Apayim on a wooden table or chair,
>even on one's bare arm.

This may have been what the rabbi quoted in *Nefesh haRav* p. 135
thought as well but RYBS didn't think much of that logic. Bottom line:
kisui panim is an added issue in Tahanun, not the ikkar. But see also
RHK in *Mishneh Halakhah* ad loc.

>Is there another source for the Mishna Berura's minhag of covering one's
>face, or is the Magen Avraham his only makor?

That NA includes kisui panim does not originate with the MA; just look at
the Rema at 131:2. And that the hand cannot be considered a kisui may be
seen already in SA OH 91:4. Incidentally, that the bare arm as part of
the same body as the face should be proscriptive vis a vis tahanun,
the Maharshal probably would disagree (see Shu"t Maharshal 72).
Nevertheless, the MA is cited as his source in the MB (first ed) itself;
why assume he had more up his sleeve?

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Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 09:09:42 +0200
From: Arie Folger <afolger@aishdas.org>
Re: Nefilas Apayim

RMF wrote:
> Not that it's any proof but I have noticed some older people who are
> otherwise knowledgeable falling on their bare arms. I wonder whether
> before the MB's influence took root people were makpid to fall on
> clothed arms.

Have you seen many pictures of Eastern Europe with men in short sleeves?


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Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 22:02:38 +0000
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Re: mitzva chiyuvis of chinuch habanim

On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 02:51:17PM +0300, Danny Schoemann wrote:
: I'm wondering where you're getting a "mitzva chiyuvis of chinuch habanim" 
: from?
: Veshinantom Levonecha? The gemoro (mishna) in Kidushin?

The Rambam's Sefer haMitzvos (asei #11) has it from veshinantam.


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Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 22:10:19 +0000
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Re: somchin al haness

On Sat, May 03, 2003 at 09:38:01PM +0300, Akiva Atwood wrote:
: REED *also* considers the "preparing for battle" in spritual terms --
: preparing to battle the yetzer hara.

He includes *both* in his definition of "preparing for battle".

: So I don't think we can bring REED to support any form of physical
: hishtadlut.

Then how can he invoke the need to go to a doctor and "verapo yarapei"?


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Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 02:50:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Ari Z. Zivotofsky - FAM" <azz@lsr.nei.nih.gov>
Re: Keriah on seeing the Kosel

On Tue, 6 May 2003, Micha Berger wrote:
>: so you need to put yourself in the kriyah mode.
>: tearing does that.

> This is a very fundamental issue.
> If one is mechuyav in an act, and the feeling simply isn't there, isn't it
> a statement that the feeling /ought/ to be?

I think you are agreeing with me.

that we generally hold that mitzvos are designed to encourage traits
and feelings. Certainly the Sefer Hachinuch uses that concept many times.

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Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:47:40 -0700
From: "Ezriel Krumbein" <ezsurf@worldnet.att.net>
Re: Writing a Sefer Torah

>Does anyone know if RYBS wrote a sefer Torah?  R' Moshe Feinstein?
>RAYH Kook?
>Gil Student

I don't know, but, my aunt told me that when they started the Yeshurun
Shul Rav Kook lent them his personal sefer Torah to start off.

Kol Tov

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Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 07:38:10 -0400
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
Beis yaar halevanon

Can anyone recommend a good description of the beis ya'ar halevanon,
Melachim I:7?


Micha Berger                 Today is the 22nd day, which is
micha@aishdas.org            3 weeks and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org       Chesed sheb'Netzach: Do I take control of the
Fax: (413) 403-9905                     situation for the benefit of others?

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Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:05:31 -0400
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
Beis Yaar Halevanon

I spoke to Rabbi Reisman about this, and he gave me a drawing that was
rendered by an architect to his specifications. If anyone is interested
in a copy, let me know off list.


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