Avodah Mailing List

Volume 11 : Number 003

Wednesday, April 16 2003

• Re: Sheitels
• Re: mitzva chiyuvis of chinuch habanim
• Re: Rambam: Hakdama
• Re: Sheitels
• Re: Kavod Tzibbur
• mitzva chiyuvis of chinuch habanim
• Was the Rambam a "Maimonidean?"
• Re: academics and maror
• Admin: REMINDER - Chol HaMoed Get Together
• Re: Sheitels
• Re: Chayav adam lir'os es atzmo...
• Re: Pesach shiurim
• Re: academics and maror
• Re: Olam habba
• Re: oats
• Re: Mixed seating
• E-bay Mechiras Chametz
• Re: E-bay Mechiras Chametz
• Keriah on seeing the Kosel
• Re: Keriah on seeing the Kosel
• Re: Keriah on seeing the Kosel
• Re: academics and maror
• Re: Keriah on seeing the Kosel
• Kinyan on the Internet
• Re: Oral and Written Traditions
• Pesach shiurim
• Re: Keriah on seeing the Kosel

On Fri, Apr 11, 2003 at 03:47:23PM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
: I don't see how you can define a relative type of Tznius as a
: D'Oraisa...

Aside from the examples already given by RAF (the Baseler), there is
also the likelihood that shevisah on chol hamo'ed is a de'Oraisa left
for man (beis din) to define the limits of.

However, there is a simpler teiretz. The de'Oraisa could be seen in
non-relative terms, an issur against not covering that which people
aren't used to seeing, perhaps for the obvious hirhur problems of being
that revealing. The relativism comes in only in defining what people
are used to, not the issur or its purpose.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org                    Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org                   The Torah is complex.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                                    - R' Binyamin Hecht

On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 09:45:01PM +0300, Akiva Atwood wrote:
: Does the mitzvah of chinuch banim only apply to Limudei Kodesh?

To ask a related set of questions, or perhaps rephrase the same one:

We need to look at the question from the perspective of TIDE, Torah
va'Avodah, TuM, etc...

Is the chiyuv to teach your son a paranasah, and how to swim, etc...
part of chinuch banim?

What about education in those limudei chol necessary for understanding
limudei qodesh? (And even if you hold that as broadly as the Gra --
to include music?)

Now, if you hold of TuM, does that mean that mada is subsumed in the
din chinuch?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org                    Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org                   The Torah is complex.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                                    - R' Binyamin Hecht

On Fri, Apr 11, 2003 at 03:30:57PM +0200, Arie Folger wrote:
: RRW wrote:
:> There are several meanings of the word Minhag in a Halachic context ONE
:> is how we pasken.
:> Illustration: we are NOHEIG like Rashi/Rambam vs. Rabbeinu Tam legabbie
:> Tfillin

: This is a correct understanding of the word minhag. We are faced with
: a disagreement, and have little in a formal way to choose one over the
: other, except that we know one to be the common pattern of observance,
: hence we traditionally accept that view to be correct.

Your explanation is elegent, in that it explains what the Rambam means
in Mamrim 2:2-3 when he speaks of "beis din ... hinhagu minhag". That
B"D chooses based on a puq chazi. I'm not sure that's your intent,
tough.

Also, are you saying this is the only meaning it has? Would that mean
that calling the ban on qitniyos a "minhag" is using the term loosely,
in a non-technical sense, only?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org                    Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org                   The Torah is complex.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                                    - R' Binyamin Hecht

From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@fandz.com>
>> From: Mlevinmd@aol.com
>>> But isn't being attracted to a married woman much more objectionable
>>> than to a single woman who is theoretically avaialble for marriage?

>> Not when the man is already married, LAD.

> You're equating Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom to an issur d'oraysa? 

Depends what you mean by 'being attracted'.

Is there any difeference legabei hirhurei aveireh?

SBA

On Sun, Apr 13, 2003 at 02:43:03PM -0400, Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
: We recently had some discussion on this topic. Without discussing practical 
: implications, when the gemorah (mgilla 23a) says "Tannu Rabbanan, Hakol olin 
: lminyan shiva, vafilu katan vafilu isha, aval amru chachamim - isha lo tikra 
: btorah mipnei kavod tzibbur" how do you visualize the development of this 
: din?  Was there a time period when a woman or a katan did get an aliya(ie 
: read from the tora) and then some later bet din stopped the practice? If so, 
: did the definition of kavod tzibbur change to make this not an acceptable 
: practice?On a duraita level was this allowed but the Rabbis immediately 
: stopped it? If so, why did the torah allow it?

I find this hard to picture, as it would assume that bayis rishon society
found less of a kavod issue than bayis sheini.

I also don't know how it possible could be a de'Oraisa restriction on
leining, as the chiyuv of leining is "only" deRabbanan.

To me this reads as a causal sequence, not necessarily a chronological
one. The first layer of reasoning, looking at leining alone, allows women
to lein. The 2nd layer of reasoning, for all we know, was made in the same
sitting as the first. This includes thinking about the broader issue,
and therefore including kevod hatzibbur. The statement is therefore
about the theory of qeri'as haTorah, that the reading need not be by a
bar chiyuvah, not about the history of the halakhah.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org                    Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org                   The Torah is complex.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                                    - R' Binyamin Hecht

Does the mitzvah of chinuch banim only apply to Limudei Kodesh?

Akiva

Until Brisk came along, was there anyone in the whole wide Jewish world
besides in the isolated Yemen, who was a maimonidean in terms of psak
halacha.

The general trend in the realm of hashkofa is to follow the Ramban and
his scholl, is it not?

The Rambam was always a controversial figure, in his day and among
the Rishonim. We must be grateful for his contribution lhagdil torah
ulhaadira; however, many acharonim also criticized him; Gro, Netsv and
RSR Hirsh for starters.

Is not being a maimonidean a retrogression against halachic and hashkafic
consensus?

I am sure that many will disagree and look forward to contrary arguments.

Chag Kosher V'Someach
K. Levin

Eli Turkel wrote:
> Personally we eat romaine lettuce with a dash of horseradish
>for old times sake with both of them on the seder plate.

Micha wrote:
>That's what we did at my father's home too.
>Until I pointed out the following problem:

I believe that RYBS' minhag was to first eat romaine lettuce and then
chrein. R' Mayer Twersky once gave a shiur on why he did this order
davka and not first chrein and then romaine lettuce. (I might have the
order reversed. I obviously don't remember the details of the shiur).

Gil Student

Adina and I wish to invite those of the Chevra who will be in Eretz
Yisrael for Pesach to the fourth annual Avodah/Areivim Chol HaMoed get
together at our home in Ramat Shlomo in Yerushalayim.

We are planning to the make the get together on Tuesday morning, the
fifth day of Chol HaMoed (for those of you in Chu"l, we count Chol
HaMoed differently than you do :-), between 11:00 A.M. and 2:00 P.M.
This is done in the interest of not taking away one of the two days
that is suitable for family tiyulim. Yom Tov is around 6:35 P.M., so
that should leave you plenty of time to get wherever you are going for
Yom Tov. No promises, but in the past there has usually been a direct
bus between my neighborhood and the Kotel on Chol HaMoed.

If you are interested, please drop me an email. I will try bli neder to
find the maps on my computer that someone sent me last year, but I will
send directions bli neder to all who respond.

We look forward to seeing you!  

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
>: I don't see how you can define a relative type of Tznius as a
>: D'Oraisa...

> The de'Oraisa could be seen in
> non-relative terms, an issur against not covering that which people
> aren't used to seeing, perhaps for the obvious hirhur problems of being
> that revealing. The relativism comes in only in defining what people
> are used to, not the issur or its purpose.

Ok. I can hear that. But my gut feeling is that DY is a D'rabbanan.

HM

Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> Three vertlach.

I offer a fourth. 

The question can be raised about the juxtaposition of Chayav adam
lir'os es atzmo... to Lifichach Anachnu Chayavim LeHodos Ul'Hallel?
An interestibg answer is given by Rabbi Y. Z. Soloveitchik who explains
it through the positions held by the Geonim brought down in by Rabbi
Nissim in Tractate Pesachim, Perek Arvei Pesachim.

There are two types of Hallel: 1) Hallel of Kriyah which is said on
the 18 days proscribed by the Anshei Kenneses HaGedolah. 2) Hallel of
Shira which is said when one is saved from a dire consequence. One of
the differences between these two Hallels is that Hallel Shel Shira is
said ONLY by the individual that experienced the salvation. It is NOT
said by anyone else. If one's friend is saved from a dire consequence,
then one does not say it. Hallel that is said in the Haggadah is in the
category of Hallel Shel Shira and not Hallel Shel Kriyah.

Therefore, the Haggadah tells us that in every generation one is
required to see oneself as though they actually experienced the
salvation of Yitzias Mitzrayim. For if they don't see themselves that
way, how could they then say Hallel Shel Shira of the Haggadah? That,
therefore is the connection between Chayav adam lir'os es atzmo K'Ilu
Hu Yatzah MiMitzrayim... and Lifichach Anachnu Chayavim LeHodos
Ul'Hallel. For only by "experiencing" the the exodus personally is one
able to legitimatly recite Hallel of Shira.

HM

On Mon, Apr 14, 2003 at 06:03:05PM -0400, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
: I've got to ask, if you haven't crushed it to matzah meal, how else
: can one go about estimating how much matza makes the kezayis?

Extimating by volume is altogether faulty. We have little way to measure
the volume of the matzah at the seder table.

The difference between shittos, e.g. 1/2 a handmade vs 1/3, is smaller
than the ratio of matzah widths. Do you really think that two matzos
from different batches (never mind different bakeries; and it's likely
this is true even within a single batch) vary in thickness by less than
1/6th? I've even had many a matzah whose own thickness was inconsistant
by more than that.

So no matter how accurate you get, you throw it all away when you convert
it into flat area.

I recommend using weight. Weigh the proper volume of matzah, and take a
peice of the same weight for the seder. Odds are the matzah itself barely
varies in weight per volume. After baking, differences in original
moisture of the dough or of the wheat grain itself is gone. This also
eliminate the problem of getting the volume of the air; air will have
no weight on your scale (unless you're weighing in a vacuum, a room
full of helium, or some similar irrelevent case).

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org                    Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org                   The Torah is complex.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                                    - R' Binyamin Hecht

On 15 Apr 2003 at 15:48, Gil Student wrote:
> Eli Turkel wrote:
>> Personally we eat romaine lettuce with a dash of horseradish
>>for old times sake with both of them on the seder plate.

> Micha wrote:
>>That's what we did at my father's home too.
>>Until I pointed out the following problem:

> I believe that RYBS' minhag was to first eat romaine lettuce and then
> chrein. R' Mayer Twersky once gave a shiur on why he did this order
> davka and not first chrein and then romaine lettuce. (I might have the
> order reversed. I obviously don't remember the details of the shiur).

FWIW my minhag (which I got from my shver) is to eat ground chrein dipped
in (shaken off) charoses for Maror and to eat romaine lettuce with chunks
of chrein for korech.

-- Carl

On Mon, Apr 14, 2003 at 02:33:15PM -0400, Mlevinmd@aol.com wrote:
: I do not beleive that there is much more explicit material about Olam
: Habbo than gilgul in Tanach. The Emunos VDeyos is an excellent source
: for the thorough review of all Scriptural evidence for and against
: either idea.

I'm not sure which OhB you mean here, the Rambam's (which until this
point you called "gan eden") or the Ramban's ("ThM"). But my following
comment holds either way.

My question was not about Tanach, but about Shas.

We need an explanation for why Tanach doesn't discuss any of them, that
yet explains why chazal spend so much time discussing GE and ThM. And
to deny R' Saadia Gaon's claim, that reason ought /not/ have a similar
exception for gilgul, to explain why it's only mentioned in sifrei nistar.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org                    Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org                   The Torah is complex.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                                    - R' Binyamin Hecht

In a message dated 3/24/2003 7:07:28 PM EDT, turkel@post.tau.ac.il writes:
> R. Eliyashiv is very insistent that oats is one of the 5 minim and says
> we rely on our kabbalah for kulah and chumrah and that he doesn't care
> what professors have to say

Interesting. The Minhag in our shul is to say G'al Yisrael out loud and
someone quote R. Elyahsiav as a source for ingoring the minhg hamadkoom
and refused to say G'al Yisrael out loud! I wonder if he knew about
this siutation!

And I wonder if he would hold of RMF's point about levaya on YT sheini
vis-avis- the intorduction of refrigeration!

Kol Tuv - Best Regards
Richard Wolpoe <RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com>
The above post is dedicate to the Memory of My Mom 
Gertrude Wolpoe OBM, Gittel Bas Nachum Mendel Halevi A"H

In a message dated 4/7/2003 11:39:02 AM EDT, sba@iprimus.com.au writes:
> From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
>>It should be obvious what the nafka mina is. The unmarried girl is
>>not an aishes ish.

> Any other female body parts where 'ervah' or hirhur depends upon her
> marital status??

The issue is really simpler.
The Torah tells us re: Sotah ufara es roshah.
Impliying that an eishis ish MUST have her head coevered.
This is the d'oraisso. 

Then once a part of the body is NORMALLY covered, even when the reaons
has NOTHING to do with ervah or tznius, THEN the issue of pritzus comes
about when that part is UNCOVERED!

There are 2 dinim in ervah
1) Intrinisic erva
2) Relative erva - based upon the society

Any Torah society that adhered to the above rule that a married women
MUST cover her head therfore would find an uncovered head as a matter
of pritzus

And any Torah society that was makpid for each woman to cover EVERY
STRAND OF HAIR, that would require that EVERY STRAND now bne covered

OTOH, if {E.G.} Litvaks allow some hair to show, and only cover the
head as per above, then in that society it is NOT a relative erva to
see SOME hair, so long as the d'oraisso of coverintg the {rov of the}
headwas adhered to.

Kein nir'eh li, bepashtus.

Therefore the Aruch Hashulchan's point is, that bizman hazeh where
married women are not strict about the Torah law of head-covering, so
therefore we are immune to any pritzus generated by the lack thereof!
While the AhS is still requiring head covering becasue that is the Troah
requirment nevertheless he allows for the facts on the ground that the
lack of head-covering no longer stimulates hirhur!

Kein nir'eh li, bepashtus, too.

And the AhS would therefore hold if a society restored the din so that
all married women covered theeir heads, one woman who deviated would
create relative erva. And if all women covered every strand, and one
woman deviated it would again crate relative erva.

So if a woman wears a short skirt in the USA, that might not trigger
hirhur, but in mei'ah sh'arim it WOULD. And if a Litvisher woman who
covers her head but allwos SOME hair to show went to a Chassidishe
shstible wher all women covered all their hair, she woudl be guilty of
relative pritzus, even though in her shul she was OK.

So this is almost a minhag hamakom issue to an extent

Kein nir'eh li, bepashtus, too.

Kol Tuv - Best Regards
Richard Wolpoe <RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com>
The above post is dedicate to the Memory of My Mom 
Gertrude Wolpoe OBM, Gittel Bas Nachum Mendel Halevi A"H

[Was sent as part A of a post titled "Areivim issues that should be on
Avodah". -mi]

1. Is one cent a shaveh perutah?

2. Is a credit card purchase halachically binding without delivery.

YGB

On Wed, Apr 16, 2003 at 08:11:06AM -0400, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
: 1. Is one cent a shaveh perutah?

Is shaveh perutah bedavkah a perutah, or is it the smallest coin in the
country in question? IOW, is it an actual value of money, or an expression
that means "something whose value can be paid". I thought the latter.

A perutah is 0.018 - 0.022 gm of pure silver. Silver is around $4.50
an oz (bid price in NY 3 min ago), which makes a perutah between 2.3
and 2.8 cents.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure.
micha@aishdas.org            It preserves health, promotes convalescence,
http://www.aishdas.org       and helps us cope with adversity.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei"

[Was sent as part B of a post titled "Areivim issues that should be on
Avodah". -mi]

I generally do not tear keriah either, using the makneh my shirt hetter.
I believe Rav Zevin, very soon after the Six Day War, suggested that
the simcha of possessing the Kosel outweighs the feeling of Churban and
that the loophole is not unreasonable. I, too, when seeing Yerushalayim
every several years, experience great joy and al achas kamma v'kamma
when coming to the Kosel. Perhaps this is a weakness in me, but I do
not feel in the keriah mode.

YGB

On Wed, Apr 16, 2003 at 08:11:06AM -0400, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
: I believe Rav Zevin, very soon after the Six Day War, suggested that
: the simcha of possessing the Kosel outweighs the feeling of Churban...

OTOH, I see the kotel, and I can't help thinking how the cup is so far
less than half empty...

And as we'll say in tomorrow's mussaf, until the rebuilding, we know we
haven't acheived ful selichah umchilah.

-mi

I posted to Areivim that Rav Zevin in HaMoadim BaHalachah (end of
Tisha B'Av section) and RMF (IM OC 5:37:1) pasken that one should
not tear keriah on Yerushalayim but RYBS (quoted by RHS in Be'Ikvei
HaTzon), the Lubavitcher Rebbe (Iggeros Kodesh vol. 15 p. 452), RSZA
and IIRC Rav Wosner (cited in Piskei Teshuvah 561) pasken that one
should still tear keriah on Yerushalayim, each for different
reasons.

Gil Student

I wrote:
>I believe that RYBS' minhag was to first eat romaine lettuce and then
>chrein. R' Mayer Twersky once gave a shiur on why he did this order
>davka and not first chrein and then romaine lettuce. (I might have the
>order reversed. I obviously don't remember the details of the shiur).

I checked my notes and it is the reverse. According to RMT, RYBS would
eat chrein first and then lettuce.

Gil Student

I posted to Areivim that Rav Zevin in HaMoadim BaHalachah (end of Tisha
B'Av section) and RMF (IM OC 5:37:1) pasken that one should not tear
keriah on Yerushalayim but RYBS (quoted by RHS in Be'Ikvei HaTzon),
the Lubavitcher Rebbe (Iggeros Kodesh vol. 15 p. 452), RSZA and IIRC Rav
Wosner (cited in Piskei Teshuvah 561) pasken that one should still tear
keriah on Yerushalayim, each for different reasons.

Gil Student

There is an article titled "Kinyan on the Internet" in R' Howaie
Jachter's list of articles. The article is at
<http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/kinyanONinternet.htm> and the entire
list articles can be linked to via AishDas' TorahNet at
<http://www.aishdas.org/torahnet/cgi-bin/jump.cgi?ID=460>

Gil Student

From: David Riceman
> But that's not a ra'ya for you. I concede that written psak is part
> of mesorah; the problem is that you contend that oral psak is not part
> of mesorah. You need more than tshuvos, you need tshuvos that say
> "even though I told this to you I'm writing it down since otherwise
> you'll think that was a one-shot psak which is not part of mesorah."
> Admittedly there were those who held that all psak is one-shot (that
> seems to be the Rama's position, and it seems to be RMF's position in
> his hakdamah to Iggros Moshe) but I don't recall seeing anyone make
> the chiluk between horaah and mesorah that you make.

I do not, however, contend that oral psak is not part of the mesorah -
it is not a reliable part of the mesoirah, except to the extent that it
is confirmed by logic. If it is not confirmed by logic, it is only as
good as the moseir.

> I observe, BTW, that you have dropped your contention that the authority
> of the mesorah is that of the moseir and not of the moreh.

I did not drop that last contention. I retain it :-) .

CKVS vKT,
YGB

I had hoped to avoid misunderstandings about my posts on shiurim by
stating at the outset that it was meant for discussion only. I also
made no attempt to describe what I thought the actual shiur of zayit and
revi'it should be. That is not my perogative - nor do I claim expertise
in the relevant suguyot and responsa. I only addressed the questions
of shiur measurement and the claim that today's eggs are half the size
in the times of chazal. I maintain that the various authorities are
not all using accurate estimates - possibly none are. As Harav Moshe
Feinstein stated in his teshuvah (O.H. vol. 1: 136) that he doesn't see
the basis of the dispute between the later authorities on the size of
an etzba. Nonetheless, the significant difference of opinions remain
and these differences become magnified when the etzba measurement is
cubed to give a volume. As to egg size, I can appreciate that the
typical egg in eastern Europe was smaller than the alleged equivalent
measured by etzba'ot (7.2) - as measured by the Nodeh BiYehuda in 18th
century Prague. However, today's hens have been bred for efficiency
in egg-laying and egg size. Moroever, proper chicken feed is well
established - as are the use of protein and other supplements. If the
Aruch Hashulchan living in Lita at the turn of the 20th century mentions
the significant increase in egg size in his days, then we should expect
that todays eggs are at least as large as they have been historically.
Consequently, I fail to see the rationale for continuing to assume that
our egg sizes are half what they were some 2 millenia ago.

As to my critique for using matza meal to measure the volume of a
given mass of matza and to then translate an average weight of a
matza to volume - expressed in terms of zayit volumes - I fail to
see where the Mishna Berura deals with the small air pockets in matza.
These are normally rather small in hand matzot, and are intrinsic in the
matza-baking process. Why must they be excluded from the measurement -
what earlier authorities have so ruled? You could argue that machine
matzot have larger air pockets, that might be more problematic. Then
the sheets of shiurim that used to be handed out at yeshivot stemming,
apparently, from a Tiferet Yisrael bet medrash should make a distinction
between the zayit shiur for the two types of matza. The better method,
to my mind, would be to actually measure the density of the matza in
question. I am pleased, therefore, to hear that such a measurement was
made, apparently, by some rav from the Star K. Of course, spaces between
pieces are not to be counted in the shiur - whether for matza or maror.
Any estimate of an olive size based on a collection of pieces of matza
must therefore be very conservative.

In actual practice, everyone (at least all the males) in my house
is given a ka'arah with matzot so that they can eat whatever shiurim
they wish. My wife has also no problem with objecting to my estimate -
if need be, and getting an extra portion.

Let me close by wishing everyone a chag kasher ve'sa'me'ach.

Yitzchok Zlochower

Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> OTOH, I see the kotel, and I can't help thinking how the cup is so far
> less than half empty...
> 
> And as we'll say in tomorrow's mussaf, until the rebuilding, we know we
> haven't acheived ful selichah umchilah.

The holiness and grandeur of the Kohen Gadol doing the Avodah on YK. The
physical and spiritual beauty of the Beis Hamikdash lost twice with the
attendant slaughter of great numbers of Jewish souls. The Heichal ...the
Kadosh, the Kodosh HaKadoshim. The Mizbeach, the Mizbeach shel Zahav,
the Menorah, the Levi'im singing their daily shir. The special Begdei
Kehuna, The Tziztz of the Kohen Gadol and the Kohen Gadol himself. The
Kelim.Tthe Sanhedrin seated in the Lishkas Hagazis... and you think
there is no reason to Rice Kriyah? We live in a generation where Goyim
occupy the area of the Makom Hamikdosh while we are Halachicly forbidden
entry to most areas of it Meshum Safek Tumah. We have no Parah Adumah
to remove our Tumah. We have no Karbanos to purify our souls or achieve
any Kapparos. We have no Karbon Pesach.

Need I go on?

When I go to the Kotel, I see a major tourist attraction with little
pieces of paper debris sticking into the crevices of the Kotel and some
of them simply falling out to the ground. I also see vultures in human
form descend on unsuspecting vitims of Tzeedaka fraud.

I'm sorry I feel more holiness in the Beis HaMedrash of Yeshivas Mir
than I do at the Kotel.

Kriya is not only Halachicly mandated, it is well justified.

HM

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