Avodah Mailing List

Volume 10 : Number 078

Monday, December 16 2002

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:40:59 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jonathan Baker" <jjbaker@panix.com>
Subject:
Ebay and auctions on Shabbat


From: "SBA" <sba@iprimus.com.au>
> From: "Jonathan Baker" <jjbaker@panix.com>
> > Leon Manel wrote:

> >>May one Place bids on Ebay for auctions that end on Shabbos? 
> 
> > Why not?  
> 
> > People place bids on auctions that take place on Shabbat/Yom Tov all
> > the time. In shul, no less.
> 
> IIRC there is a hetter - due to it being a mitzva or similar.
> 
> But, leshitoscho, why only Ebay?
> Why not buy a house at a Shabbos auction?
> And then why only via auction?

You seem to have missed the rest of my post. Why don't we do business
on Shabbat in general? As a seyag against writing things down, which
is an inescapable consequence (psik reisha?) of doing business in the
pre-electronic age.

As I pointed out, Ebay is purely electronic. Therefore, any melacha
that is done is grama- you have no control over whether the other party
logs in and checks email on shabbat.

How many house auctions are purely electronic?

OTOH, back before I was keeping Shabbat, I would go to visit my parents in
the country on summer weekends. The big local entertainment on Saturday
night, starting at 7 pm, is to go to the auction house in town, and
watch the bidding, and maybe buy something. My parents furnished their
house with things from the auction. I bought a floor-model victrola
for $35 once.

Be that as it may, one of the big rabbeim from Flatbush bought a house
in town. And every Saturday night, there was his wife, bidding on
furniture for the house, even though the non-Jews who worked the auction
were likely to write down her bids.

> (We have these auctions in Melbourne which is known as the auction
> capital of the world. But for the past 20 years or so they are held
> on Sundays in heimishe areas - thus eliminating many problems and
> situations.)

I would have thought much of that sort of stuff was problematic myself,
but if Rebbetzin ______ was at the auction every week, I figure there
must be a reason why it's not problematic.


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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:57:39 +0200
From: S Goldstein <goldstin@netvision.net.il>
Subject:
EBay on Shabbos


RLM>>May one Place bids on Ebay for auctions that end on Shabbos?

RJJB>Why not?

People place bids on auctions that take place on Shabbat/Yom Tov all
the time. In shul, no less.

When an Ebay auction completes, various scripts run to close the
transaction and notify the participants. But we don't hold by shvitat
keilim, so there's no violation of Shabbat going on. It's then
indeterminate as to when the other participant responds. That is, grama.>>

I don't think there is even a grama of a melacha done. The bidder's
computer ceases functioning with the submittal of the bid. The goy
(EBAY) has a computer that is working for his own benefit on Shabbos.
The Jew does NOT insist that the goy continue to work on Shabbos.

[Email #2. -mi]

There is a chashash of buying with EBay when the auction closes on
Shabbos. Rabbi Akiva Eiger in Shut Mahadura Kama Siman 159 discusses
is there an issur of a kinyan being chal on Shabbos when the maase is
done erev Shabbos. First RAE is mdayek from the Trumas haDeshen which
forbids a pidyon haben to be chal on Shabbos. The ThD is NOT concerned
about an issur kinyan. The Magen Avraham (and Mishna Brurah) quote
the ThD l'halacha. Yet RAE finds no proof for the ThD from the Gemara.
Then due to a diyuk in the beginning of Yoma, the RAE concludes it is,
in fact, forbidden to have a kinyan chal on Shabbos. See Shut Har Tzvi
Orach Chaim 2 Siman 62 which further explains RAE's position.

Presumably the end of the auction represents a maaseh kinyan, since this
is the manner of conducting business (simtumta). Therefore, one could
be machmir for RAE to not participate in such an auction. But see RMF
IM Orach Chaim 3 Siman 44 who further discusses this RAE and has an
eitzah. If one can CONCLUDE the deal on Erev Shabbos but with a tnai
that no one else outbids later, then it is muttar. For example, I buy
the item at $5 on Friday. If some goy outbids me on Shabbos, then the
tnai cancels the deal. If my bid wins, I already bought it on Friday.
RMF recommends to be machmir for the RAE.

Shlomo Goldstein


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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:04:02 -0500
From: "Gil Student" <gil@aishdas.org>
Subject:
Re: science & Talmud


Rabbi Slifkin's article can be found on the AishDas website at
http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/dongchong.html

Other essays on the subject can be found on the AishDas website at
http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/science.html and
http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_pamphlet1.html.

Gil Student


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Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 23:30:08 +0200
From: "gofman" <mgofman@zahav.net.il>
Subject:
astrology


I was casually following the dialogue about the Rambam's opinion and
was not sure whether the following source was quoted. The Rambam in his
Iggeres Teiman discusses astrology and says that it can be proven false
through ra'ayot sichliot (a quotation from Shilat's version). Elsewhere in
the letter, the Rambam does not refrain from bringing proofs from Tanach
and the gemara. The fact that the Rambam does not do say in the case of
astrology would seem to indicate that his proofs are purely intellectual.

motya


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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:00:54 -0500
From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject:
RE: Rambam's shitta


At 08:57 AM 12/13/02 -0500, Shinnar, Meir wrote:
>As evidence doesn't matter much in areas of deeply held beliefs, and
>previous evidence has been ignored, I don't know that I will convince
>RYGB, but the emet remains..
>
>Meir Shinnar

On this we can agree...

The emes remains...

Let's change subjects...

I asked you earlier but you did not, IIRC, answer directly, so let me
rephrase my question to you:

If even the 13 Ikkarim are subject to dispute; why (if you do) do you
reject Conservative Judaism as an illegitimate approach?

Kol Tuv,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org  or  ygb@yerusalmionline.org
essays, tapes and seforim at: www.aishdas.org;
on-line Yerushalmi shiurim at www.yerushalmionline.org


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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:58:54 -0500
From: "Shinnar, Meir" <Meir.Shinnar@rwjuh.edu>
Subject:
RE: Rambam's shitta


At 08:57 AM 12/13/02 -0500, Shinnar, Meir wrote:
>As evidence doesn't matter much in areas of deeply held beliefs, and
>previous evidence has been ignored, I don't know that I will convince
>RYGB, but the emet remains..

RYGB
> On this we can agree...

> The emes remains...

> Let's change subjects...

> I asked you earlier but you did not, IIRC, answer directly, so let me
> rephrase my question to you:

> If even the 13 Ikkarim are subject to dispute; why (if you do) do you
> reject Conservative Judaism as an illegitimate approach?

I am not sure of what relevance my position on Conservative Judaism is
to anyone, but given the prurient interest displayed, let me answer.

First, it isn't that "even the 13 ikkarim are subject to dispute" -
but rather the precise meaning of what the rambam meant, and the precise
definition of what part of them has actually been accepted as normative,
is not pashut - this isn't a rejection of the existence of ikkarim, but
merely that reciting the ani maamins isn't it, and we have to be nuanced.
Furthermore, there is a difference between clarifying what we believe to
be true, and classifying everything else as not merely false, but hutz
lamachane - but today such classification seems to have become a blood
sport (and even the baale hatosafot are not safe from today's epikoros
hunters) -and some of us are opposed to this blood sport. The radbaz's
tshuva that someone who denied the ikkarim because his reason forced
him is not an epikoros is highly relevant (and the nebbich epikoros is
(WADR) a nebbich answer) - the question is not what the truth is,
but what how do deal with those we believe to be wrong..

What has been truly educational here is the extent some are willing
to apply not merely the thirteen ikkarim (which at least well known),
but newer principles, hadashim mikarov bau lo shiarum avotechem as now
being normative as well - eg, that the rambam based his fundamental views
of the world on mesora is (IMHO) merely another egregious example - and
many of these new ikkarim violate what I think is the fourteenth ikkar -
that there is no requirement to be a shoteh.


Second, I am not sure what your qestion means. the problem of
Conservative Judaism is that historically, it has been very ill defined -
the Conservative Judaism of R Louis Ginzburg or R Saul Lieberman is quite
different from that of M Kaplan or Gordis. The movement flourished at
the expense of not defining what it meant. It encompassed people who were
shomer mitzvot, including belief in ikkarim, in almost every reasonable
definition of the term, to people who should be classified as mumar
lehachis, if such a category exists today (another area of dispute)- not
merely on the boundaries of trying to define normative faith. Do I reject
the latter - clearly. Do I reject R S Lieberman - we had that discussion
before. How do we deal with the vast majority of Conservatives (including
rabbanim), who are utterly ignorant, and whose objectionable beliefs and
practices stem far more out of ignorance (cultivated institutionally, of
course) - a very difficult problem. This is related to the old question:
Is Austritt better than Gemeinde - it may be for the austritt community,
but it is not as clear that it is as good for the general community,
who are now left without any connection to the mesora.

Meir Shinnar


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Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 19:20:33 -0500
From: David E Cohen <ddcohen@seas.upenn.edu>
Subject:
Kaddish responses


From: Phyllostac@aol.com
> IIRC, I heard that the (last) Brisk'er Rav did not answer omein after the
> fourth word of kaddish (and perhaps didn't answer / say anything after
> 'brich - hu' either ?). I believe the hesber was, because really, the
> only places where omein should be answered are where, in the text of the
> kaddish, it states (instructing the listeners / tzibbur) 've'imru omein'
> (and say omein) - which is not the case after the fourth word (nor after
> the word 'mishichei' in the Sepharadic kaddish).

I saw the following in R' Hershel Schachter's "Nefesh haRav." I don't
have it on me now, and I don't remember offhand whether the point was
made originally by RYBS or it comes from his father or grandfather.

In the "Seder Tefilos Kol haShanah" that is found at the end of Sefer
Ahavah, under the heading "Nusach haKaddish," the Rambam records the
full gamut of places to answer amein. But in Hilchos Tefilah 9:1,
referring specifically to the Chatzi Kaddish before Barechu, he only
mentions answering amein at the middle and the end of kaddish, which
are the places where there is, in fact, a prompt of "ve'imru amein."

The idea that I saw to resolve this contradiction was that only those two
are obligatory responses, while the others are optional. At a point in
the davening when interruptions are prohibited, such as between Yishtabach
and Barechu, one may answer amein only at the two obligatory places.
At other times, one may answer in all of the other places as well.

--D.C.


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Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 23:25:07 +0200
From: "gofman" <mgofman@zahav.net.il>
Subject:
Chesed Tov


Chessed is a midda, and like any other midda, chessed can be
misdirected. Shaul Hamelech's decision to spare Agag was an objective act
of chessed that resulted in the perpetuation of Amalek. For an extensive
discussion on how chessed can be misused, see Michtav MeEliyahu chelek
2, parshas lech lecha where he discusses Avraham's chessed and its
potential dangers.

motya


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Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 00:25:19 +0200
From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
Subject:
Re: Chessed


On 13 Dec 2002 at 15:45, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 13, 2002 at 01:36:22PM +0200, Carl and Adina Sherer wrote:
>: Gmul is also a payment. Or more correctly the receipt of a reward for
>: a good thing done. Could the implication be that Hashem causes
>: Chessed to be done to those who are worthy of its receipt? 

> Then what about Avos 1:2 "... ve'al gemillus chassadim", which is
> presumably chessed performed by people.

I would learn it, "the world survives on chasodim being done for 
people." 

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.


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Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 01:04:55 +0000
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Subject:
Re: Chessed


On Sun, Dec 15, 2002 at 12:25:19AM +0200, Carl and Adina Sherer wrote:
: > Then what about Avos 1:2 "... ve'al gemillus chassadim", which is
: > presumably chessed performed by people.

: I would learn it, "the world survives on chasodim being done for 
: people." 

So there are three pillars: Torah and Avodah, which people do, and
chessed which G-d does for us?

FWIW, I looked at a number of rishonim. The amudim are pretty consistantly
understood to be three areas of chiyuv or three specific chiyuvim.

-mi


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Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 20:57:55 -0500
From: Arie Folger <afolger@aishdas.org>
Subject:
Re: Daf yomi discussionon sweat louse, dirt mouse and company


RET wrote:
> To my mind the discussion misses the main point. We are not interested
> in "blaming" chazal who clearly followed the local science. The
> serious question is whether we change halacha based on the "new"
> science. i.e. killing lice on shabbat or eating birds that grow on trees
> etc. These have been debated by poskim before

Mareh meqomot, please...

Arie


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Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:26:37 +0200
From: "gofman" <mgofman@zahav.net.il>
Subject:
age of the universe


HM wrote that:
> To my way of thinking the only issue that becomes problematic is when
> core belief issues contradict hard scientific evidence such as the
> age of the universe being 15 billion years old. Those who maintain the
> belief that the world is only 5763 years old have a lot of "splainin"
> to do about the hard evidence to the contrary...

Two ways of addressing the issue:
1. Rav Avigdor Miller answers the question by saying that Hashem created
a mature universe. Just as Adam Harishon was not created as a newborn
but rather as a mature adult, so to Hashem created a mature world.

2. While the Ramban on B'reishis 1:3 says that the six days of creation
were in fact six 24 hr periods of time, the Rambam in More 2:30 seems
to disagree. The sun, through which we measure the passage of time,
was only created on day 4. The Rambam seems to imply that time existed
before the sun ( the reality of time was itself a creation) but was
measured differently.

motya


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Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:23:02 EST
From: Joelirich@aol.com
Subject:
horaat shaah


The most famous example is Eliyahu bhar hacarmel. Did he do this in
his role as navi or bet din?

A meaningful and easy fast,
Joel Rich


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Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 06:00:15 +0200
From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
Subject:
Re: Chessed


On 15 Dec 2002 at 1:04, Micha Berger wrote:
>: I would learn it, "the world survives on chasodim being done for
>: people." 

> So there are three pillars: Torah and Avodah, which people do, and
> chessed which G-d does for us?

On Chassodim being done for people - not necessarily by HKB"H. 

The Gomel Chassodim tovim in Shmoneh Esrei would then be that HKB"H 
sees to it that Chassodim are tovim - bestowed on people who deserve 
them and without harm to others. 

-- Carl


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Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:36:03 +0200
From: "gofman" <mgofman@zahav.net.il>
Subject:
hesed


G'mul is a form of a payment...

Payment can come in one of two ways- either one can be payed after
performing a service or he can be paid before the service is provided in
anticipation of its eventual fulfillment. The second form of payment seems
to be how Hashem pays us. We must eventually earn every payment of chesed
that Hashem gives us. In the event that the payment was not earned, Hashem
then reclaims the wages in the form of punishment( see Rav Salanter in Or
Yisroel). This approach can also explain hesed performed by others. When
we are recepients of a hesed, we have essentially been paid. That payment
was then be earned through the hakaras hatov we express to the giver.

motya


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Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 02:34:35 EST
From: Yzkd@aol.com
Subject:
Re: EBay on Shabbos


In a message dated 12/14/2002 8:53:17 PM EST, goldstin@netvision.net.il
writes:
> But see RMF
> IM Orach Chaim 3 Siman 44 who further discusses this RAE and has an
> eitzah. If one can CONCLUDE the deal on Erev Shabbos but with a tnai
> that no one else outbids later, then it is muttar. For example, I buy
> the item at $5 on Friday. If some goy outbids me on Shabbos, then the
> tnai cancels the deal. If my bid wins, I already bought it on Friday.

However the dynamics of EBAY I don't think allows for giving Money before
closing of bid, so one would have to contact the Seller on his own and
arrange for a *Kinyan* before Shabbos, and hope that he sees his money
back :-)

Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind


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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:40:23 GMT
From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
Subject:
aggadah


Micha writes

<Again, yes, that's a question. But you're a couple of Briskers if 
you think the aggadic question is any less "serious". Both of you 
dismissed a discussion that really didn't touch any mitzvos 
ma'asiyos, being about how to convince someone of techiyas hameisim, 
because no halachos change due to the result.>

Not just Briskers. I was recently reading in Michtav MeEliyahu that 
Aggadah is for our personal growth. hence, we are not required to 
understand aggadah. If it helps then fine and if we don't understand 
it it is also okay. On the other hand we are required to follow 
halacha whether we understand it or not.

In a similar vein we find that achacronim frequently come up with 
their own interpretation of aggadah in a way they would never do in a 
halachic sugya.  In particular I think the Maharal reinterprets many 
aggadot so that they would not contradict the science of his day.
Whether one can change halacha by reinterpreting it so it doesn't 
contradict science is much more controversial.

So in summary, yes aggadah is less serious than halacha

--
 Eli Turkel, turkel@math.tau.ac.il on 16/12/2002


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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:07:07 +0000
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Subject:
Re: aggadah


On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 10:40:23AM +0000, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Not just Briskers. I was recently reading in Michtav MeEliyahu that 
: Aggadah is for our personal growth. hence, we are not required to 
: understand aggadah. If it helps then fine and if we don't understand 
: it it is also okay. On the other hand we are required to follow 
: halacha whether we understand it or not.

Source? I think you put a slant on what he wrote. REED has /much/ ink
about the necessity of going beyond halachah. Limiting the need to
learn aggadita to that which helps personal growth doesn't limit the
importance of learning that which does.

: In a similar vein we find that achacronim frequently come up with 
: their own interpretation of aggadah in a way they would never do in a 
: halachic sugya...

It's a very different vein, but I want to address this point in
light of our recent debate about astrology which I tried to compare
to our earlier one about the mabul.

There is no parallel to the halachic process. So there is greater
room for creativity. This should not be confused with having total
license, nor with it being less important.

Halachah contains chiyuvim. Which to REED's hashkafah, is the
minimum /necessary/ for sheleimus ha'adam. However, the goal is
still sheleimus, and that aggadita which helps acheive that is
no less critical.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
Fax: (413) 403-9905             - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l


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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:10:07 +0000
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Subject:
Re: EBay on Shabbos


On Sun, Dec 15, 2002 at 02:34:35AM -0500, Yzkd@aol.com wrote:
: However the dynamics of EBAY I don't think allows for giving Money before
: closing of bid, so one would have to contact the Seller on his own and
: arrange for a *Kinyan* before Shabbos, and hope that he sees his money
: back :-)

On a point about which one poster wasn't medayeiq: Ebay's computer is an
issue of shevisas keilim, not amirah le'aku"m. Shevisas keilim is only
a problem in situations where mar'is ayin is a problem (*). The fact that
it isn't even a Jew's keli would make it even further from being an issue.

Just to clear up the metzi'us: Payment and shipment are arranged /after/
the auction. In fact, I've had items that I had to auction a second time
because the winning bidder of the first auction didn't want to pay what
the shipping companies quoted me.

(I don't know what happens if payment is by PayPal. It used to be you
still have to go to the seller's PayPal page and manuall approve the
funds transfer. However, Ebay now owns PayPal. They may have made the
transfer of funds automatic.)

The qinyan can't happen until that subsequent discussion, can it?

-mi

PS: Who is that snoop Morris Ayin? And hasn't he ever heard of dan
lekaf zekhus?

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
Fax: (413) 403-9905             - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l


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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:32:18 +0000
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Subject:
Re: age of the universe


On Sun, Dec 15, 2002 at 03:26:37PM +0200, gofman wrote:
: 1. Rav Avigdor Miller answers the question by saying that Hashem created
: a mature universe. Just as Adam Harishon was not created as a newborn
: but rather as a mature adult, so to Hashem created a mature world.

RMMS says similarly.

: 2. While the Ramban on B'reishis 1:3 says that the six days of creation
: were in fact six 24 hr periods of time...

However, the Ramban has two ma'asos: the yetzirah yeish mei'ayin of 1:1
and then the 6 days that begin after 1:2. One could see in his shitah
a predecessor to the Tif'eres Yisra'el's shitah multiple creation.

: were in fact six 24 hr periods of time, the Rambam in More 2:30 seems
: to disagree. The sun, through which we measure the passage of time,
: was only created on day 4. The Rambam seems to imply that time existed
: before the sun ( the reality of time was itself a creation) but was
: measured differently.

This shitah used to be more popular. Most of the people I know who were
adherents of it in my youth now espouse RGSchroeder's position. He shows
how relativistic gravitational effects could make a universe that
undergoes 15billion years in one frame of reference in what would be
6 days in our current frame. Our chaveir R' Shlomo Argaman's father,
R' Morris Engelson, goes throught the math in his sefer, and shows how
the range of quantum theories about at which energy level symmetry
is broken (the various particles and forces become distinct) yeild
various ages of the universe.

See my survey (which thanks to your post could use enhancing) of
shitos at <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol06/v06n030.shtml#10>.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
Fax: (413) 403-9905             - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l


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Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 17:21:12 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jonathan Baker" <jjbaker@panix.com>
Subject:
And also their donkeys


RSBA:
> Rmi: 
> > Here the brothers think they're about to become Tzafnas Panei'ach's
> > slaves, and they add that they're concerned that also their donkeys
> > would be confiscated.

> This 'chamoreinu' business has worried me for years too.

The chamorim is an interesting note. What bothered me about mikeitz was
the incredible denseness of the shevatim. You know, Yosef essentially
hits them with a clue-by-four when he says "et ha'elokim ani yarei".
HOW MANY ELOKIM-WORSHIPPERS WERE THERE IN EGYPT IN 1675 BCE? Yosef,
Asnat, Menashe and Efraim, and the Shvatim themselves. That's it.

And yet, they didn't twig that it was Yosef.

> BTW did anyone else notice the Midrash saying that the hunger
> was only in 3 countries - besides Mitzrayim - Palestina, Arabia and
> Pankia  or Pinkia. One fo the meforshim (I don't have the Midrash before me)
> explains that EY is called Palestina by the nations.
>  (And IIANM he brings this from the Biur RMD.
> Would that be by Mendelson von Reform? )

That would be by Mendelssohn, or really by Solomon Dubno, published
by Mendelssohn (Mendelssohn only wrote the translation, and the biur
on Shmot and the end of Devarim. Wessely wrote the Biur on Vayikra,
and Dubno wrote the rest of the Biur).

Note that the Mendelssohn/Dubno/Wessely/Homburg Biur predates the
emergence of Reform by 20+ years.


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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:13:08 -0500
From: kennethgmiller@juno.com
Subject:
miketz


There's been a discussion about certain points in Miketz on Areivm,
but I think it is more suited for Avodah, so I'm moving this one there.

R' Jonathan Baker pointed out <<< What bothered me about mikeitz was
the incredible denseness of the shevatim. You know, Yosef essentially
hits them with a clue-by-four when he says "et ha'elokim ani yarei". HOW
MANY ELOKIM-WORSHIPPERS WERE THERE IN EGYPT IN 1675 BCE? Yosef, Asnat,
Menashe and Efraim, and the Shvatim themselves. That's it. And yet,
they didn't twig that it was Yosef. >>>

There were many other clues that the brothers might have picked up
on but that particular one doesn't bother me. After all, how many
Elokim-worshippers did Avraham Avinu expect to find in Avimelech's
territory? It seems clear to me that the phrase does not mean specifically
one who worships as we do, but in a more general sense, an ethical person
who has the Fear Of G-d in him.

(Back to the brothers, it is amazing how many clues a distracted mind will
miss. On the morning of my 18th birthday, I happened to go to our second
refrigerator in the basement, and noticed a large sheet cake sitting
there. I didn't give it a second thought, and when my friends started
stopping by the house that night for no apparent reason, I was still
very much surprised to find that it was all a surprise party for me.)

Akiva Miller


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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:44:15 +0200
From: "Ira L. Jacobson" <laser@ieee.org>
Subject:
Re: Kaddish responses


>IIRC, I heard that the (last) Brisk'er Rav did not answer omein after the
>fourth word of kaddish (and perhaps didn't answer / say anything after
>'brich - hu' either ?). I believe the hesber was, because really, the
>only places where omein should be answered are where, in the text of the
>kaddish, it states (instructing the listeners / tzibbur) 've'imru omein'
>(and say omein) - which is not the case after the fourth word (nor after
>the word 'mishichei' in the Sepharadic kaddish).

IIRC, all the way back already in the siddur of R' Amram Gaon, the
response to the first shemeih rabba is Amen.

Let us also not forget that Sefaradim also answer Amen after yitbarakh.

\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\
IRA L. JACOBSON
/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/
mailto:laser@ieee.org


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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 22:06:16 +0200
From: Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il>
Subject:
RE: age of the universe


>: 1. Rav Avigdor Miller answers the question by saying that Hashem created
>: a mature universe. Just as Adam Harishon was not created as a newborn
>: but rather as a mature adult, so to Hashem created a mature world.

> RMMS says similarly.

This argument has serious philosophical problems:

1) Why would HaShem *lie* about the age of the universe?

2) If we accept that He would do such a thing -- how do we know he didn't
create the universe 1 second ago -- with all our memories?

Akiva


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