Avodah Mailing List

Volume 06 : Number 125

Tuesday, February 13 2001

• Re: RYBS on Piutim of RH and YK
• tachanun on a tzaddik's yartzeit
• Yeshuas Hashem - eilu v'eilu
• Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Shaleshudos and: K'SheChal Erev Pesach B'Shabbos.
• RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Shaleshudos and: K'S heChal Erev Pesach B'Shabbos.
• Everything you ever wanted to know about Shaleshudos
• minhag
• Re: RYBS on Piutim of RH and YK
• Warming food on Shabbat
• Re: Warming food on Shabbat
• Re: Kaddish after aleinu
• Midrash About Birds
• RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Shaleshudos and: K'SheChal Erev Pesach B'Shabbos.
• Re: RYBS on Piutim of RH and YK
• Erev Pesach sheHal beShabbat
• Re: Erev Pesach sheHal beShabbat

In a message dated 2/10/01 8:10:44pm EST, sherer@actcom.co.il writes:
>> Certainly when Adam and Chava were in Gan Eden they were brachos and
>>  existential imperatives. The mitzva of pirya v'rivya was given only
>>  after the Mabul.

On 11 Feb 01, at 12:03, Yzkd@aol.com wrote:
> Bpashtus by Noach it was to undo the Issur, the Mitzvah (which by B"N (After 
> Matan Torah) is Losheves vs. Pirya Vrivya) was Bpashtus the same thruout, and 
> see Rambam Hil. Mlochim 9:1 who makes no distinction in the MItzvohs between 
> Odom and Noach.

See Rashi Breishis 9:7 s"v v'Atem, Gmara Ksuvos 5a and Rashi there s"v
Ho'Eel v'Ne'emra Bo (that "pru urvu" in Breishis was a bracha). The
Chinuch in Mitzva 1 holds like you that the mitzva comes from the pasuk
in Breishis.

>>  They are existential imperatives. "B'Zeas Apecha Tochal Lechem" is
>>  a punishment. I once heard it explained thus. When man was supposed
>>  to be immortal, he didn't need to work.

> What's Pshat in "Lavda Ulishamra" (Breishis 2:15)?

The Rav I heard it from didn't explain it. My guess is that "l'avda
ul'shamra" was not existential for Adam HaRishon or that it was not a
daily routine of having to get up every day and do something (he obviously
did not have to physically tend to the Gan the way we go to work today).

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
>> Does anyone know the source for the minhag of davening mincha without
>> tachanun, every day? (My father keeps this minhag, but I do not.)

> There's a custom not to say tachanun on a tzaddik's yartzeit. Since there's
> at least one tzaddik who was niftar each day...

The Minchas Elozor z'l has very strong words to say about this minhag.

SBA

Eli Linas wrote:
> Anyone have a source for the expression: "u'teshu'as (or "teshu'as) Hashem
> k'heref eyin"? ...

From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
> Isn't it *Y*shuas Hashem k'heref ayin?

As far back as I can remember, we have sung it as part of the song Leshono
Habo'oh Beyerusholayim (..and BTW what's the source for that?) but it
seems that neither yeshuas or teshuas have any mekor in T'nach or Chazal.

From: Eli Linas <linaseli@netvision.net.il>
> Someone responded off line:
>> It's in the Michlol -- but the expression is "y'shuas," not "t'shuas."
>> He does not quote a true source, but says "Ayain Mincha LiY'hudah, pp.
>> 27-28.           .... It occurs to me that if there is no exact source,
>> then it's eilu v'eilu

I checked up the Bar Ilan - both seem to be popular - especially in
recent Tshuvah sforim - when signing off. So as you write - eilu v'eilu.

I don't think that there is a machlokeh on this - Klall Yisroel is ready
to accept Yeshuas Hashem or Teshuas Hashem...whatever.

SBA

On 11 Feb 01, at 11:33, Harry Maryles wrote:
>                                     The procedure is as follows: one
> seperates the first meal (Second Shabbos meal), into two distinct meals
> with a slight break between them. One washes, eats, Bentches (says the
> Grace after meals), waits, and then washes again and then eats the third
> meal. This procedure enables one to eat the third meal with bread (with
> Lechem Mishneh) which is the most ideal way of performing the Mitzvah.

Daven Mincha in between? (I seem to remember al pi Kabbala (though I'm
not at Roseanne Barr's madreiga yet :-) that shalosh seudot was to be
after mincha

KT
Joel

On 11 Feb 01, at 11:33, Harry Maryles wrote:
>                                     The procedure is as follows...

While lecehm mishan might be ideal given that this seudah is before zman
mincha how can THAT aspect be ideal?

Why not just frely upon the Remo and minei targima bizman and therefore
1) Be yotzei s'eudah shlishis bizman
2) Eat the Seder be'teiavon
3) Not scramble around trying to avoid extra brachos??>

If shechitas korban Pesach is docheh shabbos, why can't our seder be
enough of an impetus to forfeit the inyan of lechem Mishan for Se'uadah
Shlishis?

Kol Tuv
Richard Wolpoe
Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com (at Information Builders)
Richard_Wolpoe@alumnimail.yu.edu

Thank you, RHM, for your great summary:

I have a question regarding a different minhag/halacha(?) on this:

It is my understanding that R Shimon bar Yochai would substitute Torah
study for the Shaleshudos on erev Pesach.  (I have been told, but have not
looked up: Zohar 3:95a; M"A 444:2 in the name of Shaloh)  I also understand
that some have used this analysis to do the same on other shabboses.

Can anyone elaborate?

-- Eric

I recall it being stated that the reason for minhag being compulsory is
mtam neder. I always assumed that this was based on doing something "good"
3 times becoming a neder (does anyone know the source of this concept?).
How then did it work for case of an individual coming to a place (makom
shenahagu) if he articulated a desire not to take on the concept(ie what
is the binding mechanism?) It would seem more natural to say that it's
al tifrosh but this would seem to have halachik nafka minas(eg how is
it applicable to a family minhag in current times?)

KT
Joel

In a message dated 2/12/01 1:54:30am EST, sherer@actcom.co.il writes:
>> Bpashtus by Noach it was to undo the Issur, the Mitzvah (which by B"N (After 
>> Matan Torah) is Losheves vs. Pirya Vrivya) was Bpashtus the same thruout, and
>> see Rambam Hil. Mlochim 9:1 who makes no distinction in the MItzvohs between 
>> Odom and Noach.

>  See Rashi Breishis 9:7 s"v v'Atem, Gmara Ksuvos 5a and Rashi 
>  there s"v Ho'Eel v'Ne'emra Bo (that "pru urvu" in Breishis was a 
>  bracha). The Chinuch in Mitzva 1 holds like you that the mitzva 
>  comes from the pasuk in Breishis.

I am aware of the Tos Yevomos 65b, however there is Machlokes in this
issue (see MaHARShA Sanhedrin 59b). LAN"D the "Rishono Lvracha" in Rashi
is refering to 9:1 (Where it continues (9:2) UMora'achem Vchitchem),
and Lav Davka to Parshas Breishis (I think I wrote about this on Avodah
a while back), my point was that in Pashtus Haksuvim Rashi (Breishis
1:28) holds (as the RE"M points out, vs. the above mentioned MaHaRShA)
that Odom was Mtzuveh (and it being Bracha is no contradiction), also
see Mishna Yevomos 61b and following Sugia.
In addition I brought the Mashmous from the Rambam, who doesn't say that
another difference between Odom and Noach is in Pirya Vrivya (however
he doesn't mention there P"V Bichlal (only Hazhoros)).

>>>  They are existential imperatives. "B'Zeas Apecha Tochal Lechem" is
>>>  a punishment. I once heard it explained thus. When man was supposed
>>>  to be immortal, he didn't need to work.

>> What's Pshat in "Lavda Ulishamra" (Breishis 2:15)?

>  The Rav I heard it from didn't explain it. My guess is that "l'avda 
>  ul'shamra" was not existential for Adam HaRishon or that it was 
>  not a daily routine of having to get up every day and do something 

And what is Teitch in Breishis 2:5 "La'avoid Es Hoadamah"?   And see Rashi on 
Bzeias Apecha (3:19) which AIUI is saying, that even thou he was told Vkotz 
Vdardar Tazmiac, none-the-less thru a "great TIrche" you will get food, (but 
that even before some Avoda was needed).

Kol Tuv, 
Yitzchok Zirkind

Shmirat Shabbat Kehilchata (Chapter 1, Rule 26) permits placing cooked food
before shabbat on a plata, even if the plata is not yet on and will only
come on later with a time clock.  On shabbat itself a non-Jew may, but a Jew
may not, put the food on the plata.  (These restrictions do not apply at all
to Sephardim as ROY makes clear.)
It appears that it would therefore be possible to place a pot of chicken
soup on the plata before shabbat and have a time clock come on in the
morning so as to have hot soup for lunch.  But it would not be possible to
remove the soup from the fridge on shabbat morning and place it on the
plata.  The problem is that the soup may spoil if left out of the fridge
overnight, even in winter.
Is anyone aware of other opinions that would permit placing the soup on the
plata on shabbat whilst it is not yet on?

From: David J Havin <djhavin@alphalink.com.au>
> Shmirat Shabbat Kehilchata (Chapter 1, Rule 26) permits placing cooked food
> before shabbat on a plata, even if the plata is not yet on and will only
> come on later with a time clock....

Query: if one has a plata with only one temperature and it would not be
derech bishul to cook on that surface, is the plata considered similar to
cooking on a radiator (not al gabei ha'aish)?  If yes, then arguably
hachzara should be muttar.  Add to this that RYBS was mekil for the baalei
batim in Boston to allow hachzara onto a blech so long as the food was on
the fire bein hashmashos, even if in the interim the food was nitztanen
l'gamrei (based on the Ran which is semi-endorsed by the Ramo). (RHS was not
happy with this heter.)

Kol tuv,
Moshe

De Sola Poole brings the following sources to show that Kaddish was
originally associated with limud Torah. In particular, that Kaddish was
a formalized aftarta (closing) to a seder in aggadita. Much like the
way many try to end every shi'ur with some mention of bi'as hamashiach.

a) Sota 49a: Where Raba asks and answers, "The world, on what does it
   rest? On the qedusha disidra and the 'yehei sh'mei raba' of addadita".

b) Ber' 3a: A bas qol cries to R' Yose b Chalafta, "At the time when
   Yisrael do the will of the Omnipresent and enter batei kinesios and
   batei midrashos and anster 'yehei sh'mei raba mevarach', HKBH nods
   His head and says... 'Happy is the King to Whom such praises are
   offered in His house.'"

c) Merash Mishlei 14:28: R' Yismael says that HKBH is truly florified
   in the world "when Yisrael assemble in batei medrashos and hear an
   aggadah from a chacham and afterward answer, 'Amein YSR"M'"

d) Medrash Koheles 9:14: "When the zakein sits and is doreish, and they
   answer after him 'AYSR"M', even if he has a writ of gezeiros of 100
   years, HKBH is mocheil all his avonos".

e) A"B d'R' Akiva, Yalkut Yesh' 26:2 (besheim Reish Lakish): "And when
   he finishes adada, Zeubavel b She'alti'el stands on his feet and says
   'Yisgadal viYiskadash'... and all ba'ei olam answer 'amein'."

f) Pirke d'R' Eliezer: "David says aggadah before HKBH, and the tzaddikim
   answer after him 'AYSR"M' from within gan eden. And posh'ei Yisrael
   answer 'amein' from within gehennom."

g) Sefer haYuchasin 123c (R' Abraham b Sh'mu'el Zucato 1504): When the
   reish galusa of ga'onic times was elected, he would give a shi'ur
   in aggaita, followed by the statement that the rest you must learn
   on your own. "One zakein stands, a chacham viragil, and is meishiv
   k'inyan and sits. And the chazan stands and says qaddish."

I don't see (b) as a ra'ayah, as RDSP seems to assume that the mention
of batei midrashos indicates learning rather than davening, but it's
not muchrach at all. After all, one may daven in a beis medrash, but
may one learn in a beis k'nesses?

It would seem that (d) provides a connection between Qaddish and aveilus.
With the added idea, borrowed from R' Akiva, that a son's tefillos could
help the g'zar din of a father who is niftar. Perhaps that explains the
shift from "bor'chu" to qaddish -- the story is only being brought to
show that the son's tefillos help, not which tefillah. It is possible that
that niftar's chata'im in particular called for bor'chu as a takkanah.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

This past week, both of my school-age children came home with arts &
crafts having to do with birds and parashah sheets saying that Dosson
and Avirom spread out "mun" on Shabbos to trick the Yidden but birds
came and ate up the "mun". I looked around a bit for this midrash but
could not find it. Anyone have a source?

Gil Student

> Daven Mincha in between? (I seem to remember al pi Kabbala (though I'm
> not at Roseanne Barr's madreiga yet :-) that shalosh seudot was to be
> after mincha

Only if you're ashkenaz. The sefardim around here eat seudah shlishit
and then go off to mincha on Shabbos.

I remember that the last time Pesach "fell" on Motzei Shabbos about 7
years ago, this is what we did. We ate the seudah in the morning pretty
early, bentched, waited a short bit, and then washed and ate the next
seudah in time to finish before we turned into pumpkins.

What I don't remember was if we used egg matzo for lechem mishna so
as not to risk having a chance of an accidental crumb of actual real
chametz come in contact with our rug/floor.

---Rena

On 12 Feb 01, at 10:26, Yzkd@aol.com wrote:
> I am aware of the Tos Yevomos 65b, 

Thanks. The makor I had said 62b and I couldn't find the Tosfos....

> ever there is Machlokes in this issue (see MaHARShA Sanhedrin 59b).  

Yes.

> And what is Teitch in Breishis 2:5 "La'avoid Es Hoadamah"?   And see
> Rashi on Bzeias Apecha (3:19) which AIUI is saying, that even thou he
> was told Vkotz Vdardar Tazmiac, none-the-less thru a "great TIrche"
> you will get food, (but that even before some Avoda was needed).

Maybe not a daily routine....

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

    With Tu beShvat behind us, Purim Meshulash is around the corner,
followed by Erev pesach sheHal be-Shabbat.  Attached below is a sheet
I've drawn up for our local shul in Rehovot, to help our balabatim
through the morass.  As noted below, times are for Rehovot Israel, and
following the general custom in Israel, are le-humra: Magen Avraham
before noon and Gra after noon.   I'd appreciate any feedback.
                                                            Aryeh

--
Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer
Ethel and David Resnick Professor
   of Active Oxygen Chemistry
E-mail: FrimeA@mail.biu.ac.il
------------------

    What to Do when Erev Pesach Falls on Shabbat (5761): A Short Guide
                                            by Rabbi Aryeh A. Frimer

(Note: For clarity, references have been kept to an absolute minimum.
Abbreviations - OH: Shulkhan Arukh Orah Hayyim; MB: Mishnah Berurah; IM:
Resp. Igrot Moshe.  Times are for Rehovot Israel, and following the
general custom in Israel, are le-humra: Magen Avraham before noon and
Gra after noon.)

I. General: Ta'anit bechorot is pushed up to Thursday morning. Bedikat
hametz is performed Thursday evening.  All hametz, not needed for
Shabbat meals, should be sold, removed or burned before Friday morning
10:23 AM.  By Friday afternoon, the house should be entirely Pesachdig
and only kasher le-Pesach foods and utensils should be used - with
perhaps the only exception, bread for lehem mishneh.  All preparations
for the Seder (removing challah from the matzot, preparing the maror,
haroset, salt water, roasting the shankbone and egg) should have been
completed.  No preparations for the Seder or Yom Tov may be done on
Shabbat.

II. Basic Principles:
     A) Matzah
        1) It is Rabbinically forbidden to eat matzah on erev pesach (OH
471:2).  The majority of Poskim maintain that this prohibition starts
only from the morning [alot ha-shahar] (ibid., MB no. 13).  The minority
view maintains that one should be stringent from the night before. (IM,
OH, I, 154).  Some have the custom of not eating matzah from Purim or
Rosh Hodesh.
        2) According to most authorities, this prohibition includes
items baked with matzah mehl (e.g., cakes and cookies), but not those
cooked (e.g., Kneidelach - kufta'ot) [OH 444, MB no. 8] or fried (matzah
brei, chremzelach) [Erev Pesach she-Hal be-Shabbat, R. Zvi Cohen, chap.
21, parag. 5 and note 10].
        3) In order to assure that matzah will be eaten with a zest
Seder night, Haza"l forbad eating cooked or fried matzah or matzah
ashira (see section II.C below) products starting from mid-afternoon
(samuch le-mincha ketanah), which is 2:53 PM.

    B) Bread (Hametz)
        1) Rabbinically, it is forbidden to consume hametz on erev
Pesach (which this year falls on Shabbat) after 9:04 AM.
        2) All hametz must be removed and "Kol Chamira" recited by 10:23
AM.
        3) Hametz may be removed by flushing it down the toilet.

    C) Matzah Ashirah (Matzah made without water using fruit juice or
eggs)
        1) Sefaradim use matzah ashirah on Pesach.  The custom of
Ashkenazic Jewry is to refrain from eating it, unless one is elderly or
ill (OH 462:4).  Matzah ashirah is not hametz, and may be stored in the
house (ibid., MB no. 16).
        2) There are three views regarding the time from which this
Ashkenazic stringency begins:  a) From the same time as it is
Rabbinically forbidden to eat Hametz [i.e., 9:04 AM] (IM, OH, I, 154);
b) from noontime [11:42 AM], which is the time it is Biblically
forbidden to eat Hametz (Resp. Nodah be-Yehudah 28);  c) from samuch
le-mincha ketanah [i.e., 2:53 PM; sec. II.A.3] (Derekh ha-Chaim, Hilkhot
Pesah; Arukh ha-Shulkhan OH 444:5; Yehaveh Da'at, I sec. 91, no. 12).
d) Children may eat it all erev pesach. (R. M. Feinstein quoted by R. S.
Weissman)
        3) Normally one makes a mezonot before and al ha-Mihyah after
eating matzah ashirah.  However, when it is used as bread - particularly
for a seudat mitzvah (like a Shabbat meal) - and is eaten together with
other foods, one recites ha-motzi and birkhat ha-mazon. [IM, OH, I, 154;
Yehaveh Da'at, I sec. 91, no. 12; Erev Pesach she-chal be-Shabbat, chap.
15, note 17].  A minimum of a kezayit (~29.6 cc or approximately 1/3 of
a Matzah) is required for birkat ha-Mazon [OH 184:6]; however, one
should preferably eat at least the volume of a ke-beitzah (~59 cc or
approximately 2/3 matzah) to fulfill the obligation of seudat shabbat
[OH 291:1, MB no. 2; Shiurim de-Rabbanan based on "Halachos of Pesach"
R. S. Eider, sec. XXI.D.7].

III. Options for Three Meals:
        A) Friday Night: use Bread (Challah), Matzah (if your custom
permits it) or matzah ashirah.  If bread is used: Make ha-Motzi over two
hametz challot AWAY from the table.  Eat the Challot over a paper towel
or hametz plate, collect all crumbs and dispose of them by flushing them
down the toilet.  Wash plate in bathroom sink and put it with the hametz
dishes.  Wash out your mouth and hands and continue with your Kasher
le-Pesach meal.

     B) Shabbat Morning: use bread or matzah ashirah.
        1) If you intend to use bread (Challot) - daven at the early
minyan (6:30 AM) Shabbat morning and finish eating your challot and
washing out your mouth before 9:04 AM.  Continue with you Kasher
le-Pesach meal.  Finish the clean up and recite kol chamira before 10:23
AM.
        2) If you intend to use matzah ashirah:  a) If you follow the
most stringent position (see section II.C.2.a) then attend the first
minyan (6:30 AM), and finish eating the matzah ashirah before 9:04 AM.
b) If you hold like either of the two more lenient positions (section
II.C.2.b or c), you can attend the regular minyan (8:15 AM) and finish
eating the matzah ashirah by 11:42 AM or 2:53 PM, respectively.  c) In
all cases, BE SURE TO SAY KOL CHAMIRA BEFORE 10:23 AM.  It can be said
Shabbat morning before Shul.  If you have no intention of using hametz
at all on Shabbat, kol chamira can be said already on Friday after you
have removed all your hametz.

    C) Seudah Shlishit:
        1) One approach is to eat two meals in the morning, separated by
a period of interruption (go for a walk, read a book etc.).  If you are
using hametz or matzah ashirah [and you follow the most stringent
position (sec. II.C.2.a)], then both meals must be finished before 9:04
AM.  If you hold the middle position in matzah ashirah (section
II.C.2.b) you have to 11:42 AM.
        2) A second approach is to eat products made from cooked or
fried matzah pieces or matzah mehl (section II.A.2) or matzah ashirah
[if you hold the most lenient position (section II.C.2.c)].  Make
mezonot and al ha-michyah - unless you eat ~236 cc (ca 2.7 matzot), in
which case you make ha-Motzi.  Use them before 2:53 PM. (Yehaveh Da'at,
I, sec. 91, no. 12)
        3) Use fruit, meat, fish or potato starch cakes and macaroons,
even after 2:53 PM.  Be sure not to fill yourself up, so you will have
an appetite by the evening.

IV. Shul Policy: As in previous years, the general Shul policy (for a
kiddush, brit, ta'anit bechorot etc.) is to permit use of matzah ashira
until 2:53 PM on Erev Pesach.

On 13 Feb 2001, at 9:54, Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer wrote:
> B) Shabbat Morning: use bread or matzah ashirah.
> 1) If you intend to use bread (Challot) - daven at the early
> minyan (6:30 AM) Shabbat morning and finish eating your challot and
> washing out your mouth before 9:04 AM.  Continue with you Kasher
> le-Pesach meal.  Finish the clean up and recite kol chamira before 10:23 AM.

You can daven a LOT earlier than this. Hanetz on Erev Pesach is 
around 5:20 (assuming we don't go on daylight savings time until 
after Leil HaSeder this year), which means atifas talis is about 
4:30, and you can FINISH davening by 6:30. This will actually be a 
lot easier than I thought it would be.

-- Carl

mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

*********************


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