Avodah Mailing List

Volume 06 : Number 021

Tuesday, October 24 2000

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 17:00:29 -0400
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Subject:
Re: Levayasan


On Thu, Oct 19, 2000 at 02:32:31PM -0400, YFel912928@aol.com wrote:
:                                             Avraham Ben HaRambam asserts
: that the Levayasan is the yetzer harah, "eating" it implies destroying
: (i.e., "devouring") it, and the general implication is that in Olam Habah
: the yetzer will be undone, and we'll thusby be able to unite with the
: Ribbono Shel Olam since all impediments to that will have been removed.

A point that hit me (which for all I know was just ellided out of RYF's
summary) is that achilah isn't only destroying the food, it is nourishing
the person. Ties in well with the notion of needing the yeitzer hara for
arayos in order to have piryah virivyah, not to mention eggs; the Chazal
on "bechol levavecha", etc...

The problem in this is what about the skin of the leviasan. In this
mashal, it would imply that some kelipah of leviasan remains between man
and HKBH.

On a similar inyan to my first point, we noted that Yuma 69a describes
the yeitzer hara laavodah zara (immediately before its imprisonment
by Anshei K'nesses haGdolah) as a lion of fire that emerged from the
Kodesh haKadashim.

We also find in Kiddushin 81a, a story where R' Amram Chasida felt
tempted by the yeitzer hara la'arayos and he embarasses himself by
yelling "fire", thereby causing the Chachamim to run in on him. (Why
the chachamim? Didn't the hamon am also come to put out the fire? What
is this telling us? Please see the gemara in full.) At the end of the
story, R' Amram casts away the yeitzer hara, and it leaves looking
like an amud ha'eish. (Note that R' Amaram really was being plagued by
"fire".) But to get basck to my point, the yeitzer hara is again described
as something kadosh, whose appearance is that of something associated
with the Shechinah.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:31:23 +0200
From: Eli Linas <linaseli@mail.netvision.net.il>
Subject:
Re: Avodah V6 #20


R' Carl commented:
>Despite the fact that many yungerleit here in Eretz Yisrael smoke, 
>as we have noted on this list in the past, almost no yungerleit 
>smoke on Yom Tov. ...                 This is based, at least in 
>part, on the Korban Nesanel Os Yud in the Rosh in Beitza Perek 2 
>Siman 22. Ayen sham.

I thought it was because HaRav Elyashiv came out with a well publicized
p'sak a few years ago that smoking was no longer shaveh l'kol nefesh, and
therefore usser on Yom Tov. I know that's when I stopped...

Kol Tuv, Eli


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:00:53 -0400
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
Subject:
Midrash on Yishmael


<<maybe I can show them that traditional sources have accurately
predicted the fact that Yishmael will be allowed (by Hashem) to have the
Har Habayis and that we will undergo a period of "fleeing from the enemy"
before the final Geulah.>>

        Clearly,  traditional sources predicted a rise to power of
Yishmael where up to a hundred years or so that was considered
unthinkable.

        In this connection,  I heard quoted in a shiur over Yom Tov that
by the mechanism of ma'aseh avos siman labanim,  it is only through Sara
Imenu throwing Yishmael out of her house and out of Eretz Yisrael,  that
we will have the ability to throw them out likewise from E"Y,  bekarov.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 19:44:35 +0000
From: yidubitsky@JTSA.EDU
Subject:
Sukkah on Shemini Atseret


RGS had stated that:
>BTW, there is a long history of not eating in the sukkah on Shemini
>Atzeres, dating back to the rishonim.  I think Dr. Chaim Soloveitchik
>has taught classes on that topic (using it as a backdrop for the
history).

In ha-Rav Prof. H. Soloveitchik's review of Yitshak Zimmer's *Olam
ke-minhago noheg* (Jerusalem, 1996) which appeared in the *AJS Review* 23,
no. 2 (1998), he writes that:

"I would suggest that sukkah-sitting on Shemini Azeret was established on
an original fault line, and its observance ultimately cracked under the
joint pressure of colder climate and the change in religious calendar that
occurred in eastern Europe as the Safedian kabbalah made ever greater
inroads, especially among Hasidim...."
He suggests [ve-ayen sham...] that once Hashana Rabba became the
"religious climax" of the High Holydays season, its "motsaei .hag" [i.e.
Shemini Azeret] became the eve of Hasidic celebration and, with the cold
climate, this inevitably took place inside as opposed to out in the
Sukkah. But no mention of such a custom [?] in times of the Rishonim.

And, to respond to an earlier response to RGS' post, historians of
halakhah do not suggest/recommend any particular halakhic stance, they
merely [in ideal circumstances] report the whats and [their opinions
of the] whys of history. 

Bi-tefilah le-Shomer Yisrael, kumah be-`ezrat Yisrael, u-fedeh ki-neumekha
Yehudah, Shomron ve-Yisrael,

Yisrael Dubitsky


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 22:55:59 -0400
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
Subject:
Sukka on Shemini Atzeres


From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
> I asked a posek where I should go to sleep if I chose to go to sleep
> around licht bentching time and sleep until Maariv (total of about 70-75
> minutes here). IIRC he said I should sleep in the Succa, but be mechaven
> that I am not sleeping in the Succa before shkiya l'shem mitzvas Succa.

        I heard beshem Rav Eliashiv that sleeping in the sukka is not the
mitzvah, only going to sleep in the sukka. He gave an etza for a
yeshiva with insufficient space in the sukka for all the bochurim,
that the first shift go to sleep on rolling cots, and once they fell
asleep they could be rolled out.

        Did your posek advise making a shehecheyanu?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com


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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 07:44:41 +0200
From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
Subject:
Re: Sukka on Shemini Atzeres


On 23 Oct 00, at 22:55, Gershon Dubin wrote:
>         Did your posek advise making a shehecheyanu?

No, since I went to sleep before shkiya.

--- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 22:37:10 -0500
From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject:
Re: sukkah b'shemini


>My grandfather suggested that the source for the minhag is the targum
>yonatan ben uziel on the pasuk bayom ha-shemini atzeret tihiyeh lakhem,
>which goes something like the following: b'yoma t'mina'a tehevun knishin
>b'hedva l'bateikhon min matilkhon.
...
>                               my grandfather referred to a p'lugta in
>the Yerushalmi between Rav and R. Yehoshua b. Levi on what one must do,
>in Israel if one wishes to eat in the sukkah on Shemini Atzeret. One of
>them says that you have to make the sukkah unkosher, the other says you
>just have to make kiddush inside your house. So whether and how one may
>eat in the sukkah on Simhat Torah would seem to depend on this p'lugta.

Baruch she'kivanti 'da'as Gedolim. I actually learned the Yerushalmi like 
the DR when first having learnt it - albeit not knowing about the TYBU at 
the time.

I should note that it is a Bavarian custom - that was the minhag in the 
Bechhofer family (no longer kept) - to eat inside SA night and outside SA 
day - I assumed, as a variation on the pshat below, because of the tartei 
d'sasrei of saying in Kiddush "Shemini Chag Ho'Atzeres" yet eating in the 
Sukkah, and linked to the Y-mi. The TYBU adds a dimension.

KT,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb


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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 01:52:42 +1000
From: SBA <sba@blaze.net.au>
Subject:
HOSHANA RABBA & SHMINI ATZERES


First of all a Yasher Koach to RHM for telling us about the beautiful
minhag of his father and grandfather when 'gezegening' from the Sukkah.
(I have sent it on to your cousin here.)

However, I was quite surprised to hear that anyone (outside of Eretz
Yisroel of course) does it on Hoshana Rabba. I was always under the
impression that everyone leaves it till Shmini Atzeres - late in the
afternoon.

I have done a bit of researching and found that besides Minhag Sanz to
gezegen on Shabbos Breshis - only Shmini Atzeres is mentioned. It would
be interesting to hear if anyone else has heard of the HR minhag.

Regarding eating in the Sukkah in SA, I was quite surprised at the
initial posts which seemed to expect those of us who follow the Halocho
as is clearly stated in Shulchan Oruch to explain ourselves.

(In fact I just checked up the KSA who writes - even regarding sleeping -
that even though 'yesh makilin - avol hanochon l'hachmir'.)

So I don't think, that those who stick to the SA 'darfen zich farentfern',
the question is to those who DON'T follow this halocho.

AS mentioned by some posters, the Shu't Minchas Elozer (V4, 31) has a
lengthy tshuva explaining minhag chassidim (which, as pointed out by
RDG is really a much earlier minhag - it is mentioned in sefer Hapardes
leRashi and Machzor Vitri).

I am, however, surprised that no one mentioned that the most popular
Rebbe on Avoda/Areivim (that's the impression I get get ) Rav Tzodok
Hakohen z'l has a complete sefer 'Meshiv Tzedek" explaining this minhag.

L'maan ho'emes, I admit that I also didn't know about this sefer, but
read about it and the Satmar Rebbe's complete agreement of his words,
whilst browsing through the Machzor Divrei Yoel - Sukkos (2) which
bring the various minhogim in Sighet/Satmar on this matter (which seem
quite confusing to me...the Yetev Lev z'l did eat in the Sukkah until
large crowds of chassidim came and made it impossible whilst the late
Stamar Rebbe z'l did the opposite - the public Sukkah was larger than
the Bes Hamedrash...

(I once heard (no guarantees for authenticity) that the SR was asked why
in Europe on SA he ate inside and later in America he ate in the Sukkah?
He answered: "Oifen eleter darf men zich shoyn firn lauten Shulchan
Oruch...")

The Nitei Gavriel - which is an excellent likut of minhogim and sources
brings a source for almost every possible type of minhag: even one where
you eat in the Sukkah but have the 'shlak' closed while making Kiddush...

He also has a lengthy birur on this whole subject and brings the names of
dozens of Rishonim and Achronim who write about it or had this minhag -
followed by a "list" of Gedolim who did and another of those who didn't...

SHLOMO B ABELES


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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 00:11:36 EDT
From: Yitzi777@aol.com
Subject:
Sukkah on Shemini Atseres


>  Which rishonim? Obviously not Tosfos unless there was an issue of
> mitztaer, which would be a heter during Succos itself as well. Is this
> history documented anywhere?

Rav Ettlinger in his Bikurei Yaakov writes that in his time there where those 
who had the custom not to eat in the Sukkah on Shemini Atseres. He writes 
they were called "Mishpachas Dreyfuss." (I am not sure what the relevance of 
that is.)

Rav Yeruchim Fishel Perlow in his haga'os on Bikurei Yaakov writes that it is 
a very old machlokes Rishonim whether or not to eat in the Sukkah on Shemini 
Atseres. He lists the following: Sefer Pardes liRashi siman 189, Machzor 
Vitri siman 384, and Maasey Geonim siman 52. 

Also, the sefer Nitay Gavriel brings down many rishonim and achronim on this 
topic.

Also, my brother in law, R. Akiva Leiman, told me that his father
(Dr. Shneur Leiman) has seen a manuscript of the Gemorah which does not
the words "hilchisa yesuvi yasvinan, bruchei lo mvarchinan" but rather
this was added in later by (I think) the Behag. (I hope and think I am
quoting this correctly but no gaurantee.)You do find other places in
Shas that Tosfos mentions places where the Gemorah says "Vihilchisa"
that it was really not part of the Gemora but was added later (I don't
remember the places offhand but I know they exist. If anybody remembers
I would appreciate if he could let me know.)

Still, the Shulchan Aruch does say you must eat in the Sukkah, and none of 
the above would change anything for a pure "halachic man."

Yitzi Oratz  


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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 02:27:45 +1000
From: SBA <sba@blaze.net.au>
Subject:
Sukka on Shemini Atzeret


From: "Carl M. Sherer"
>> I would love to see ONE major poseik say in a Tshuva that it's ok to
>> not eat in the sukkah on Shmini Atzrees, but I have not found one.

> My long standing challenge to my wife and brothers in law is to find
> one posek before the 18th century who says it.

I received this Areivim just after my earlier post on this subject to
Avodah. I took another look at the birur in Nitei Gavriel to find you
a few pre-18th century names. Here's just a few: (I don't know if any
qualify as Poskim, but it does prove that the minhag pre-dates Chassidim.)

Sefer Hapardes leRashi quotes the brothers R' Yaakov, R' Eliezer and R'
Shmuel (sons of Rabbenu Yiztchok Halevi) (and giving as their reason
Yerushalmi Sukka (4:5)

Machzor Vitri bring Rav Yosef m'Kinon who didn't eat in the Sukkah.

The Orchos Chaim (R'A m'Lunil) says that there are places in Tzorfas
where they eat by day and not at night (and adds 'v'ein taam l'divrehem).
(Tur 668 - similar).

Yosef Ometz - Minhagei Frankfurt (and also Minhogei Worms) writes about
a family who ate chutz lesukkah and adds 'yesh lohem al mi sh'yismechu'.

V'od...

SBA


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 17:47:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Succa on Shmini Atzeres


--- Carl and Adina Sherer <sherer@actcom.co.il> wrote:
>  the Taz (OH 668:1): why do we leave the 
> Succa on Yom Tov acharon? On all seven days of Succos we 
> daven for clouds, but on Shmini Atzeres, we daven for rain, and 
> therefore we leave the Succa so that we should daven for rain b'lev 
> shalem.


The Sefer Tammei Haminhagim, pp 822 cites the Gemmarah in Sukah 47A:
    Mesiv Yasvinan, Bruchi Lo Mavarchinan.

The question about eating in the Sukkah stems from the distinguishing
characteristic of Shemini Atzeres vs Sukkos, that of leaving the
Diras Arai and returning to your Diras Keva, which the gemarrah
itself states. Either it is Shmeni Atzeres, or it is Sukkos. It can't
be both. It is only because of the Sfeka Deyoma issue that we have a
problem (and today, with established calanders there really is no sofek,
we are Noheg Yom Tov Sheni shel Galius because of the concept of Minhag
Avosenu BeYadenu). The Gemarah gives three alternatives:
    1. Not eating in the Sukkah at all
    2. Eating with a Bracha and
    3. Eating without a bracha.
The Gemarah Paskins like the third alternative.

There are some whose Minhag is not to eat in the Sukkah at all on
the Night of Shmini Atzeres. This is because of the fact that we are
required to be Mevarech Zman . So if you then eat in a Sukkah you are
in effect contradicting the Birchas Zman. So it is therefore thought
that when the Gemarrah Paskins Mesiv Yasvinan, Bruchi Lo Mavarchinan
(eating without a bracha), it is reffering only to the daytime where
Zman is not recited.(Bais Yosef, Siman 668).

As for not eating in the Sukkah at all (except for Kiddush and a partial
Seudah (e.g. Mezonos etc.) and the rest of the Seudah in the House (my
Minhag) Carl's explanation above is cited in the name of the Medrash
Tanchuma, Parshas Pinchas as cited by the Taz.

Namely:

On all seven days of Succos we daven for clouds, but on Shmini Atzeres,
we daven for rain, and therefore we leave the Succa so that we should
daven for rain b'lev shalem.

HM


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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:09:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: jjbaker@panix.com
Subject:
Re: Sukkah Sensitivity on Shmini Atzeres


Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com> writes:
>> But even though the SA Paskins this way, it seems to me that ultimately
>> Bal Tosef is indeed violated. ...  So it perplexes me that the D'Rabbonan
>> of Sfeka D'Yoma overrides the D'Oraisa of Bal Tosef when it is not a
>> Shev V'Al Taseh. 
 
From: sadya n targum <targum1@juno.com>
> 	Why aren't you equally bothered by the blowing of Shofar on the second
> day of Rosh Hashana, or the brachos of al achilas matza and al achilas
> maror at the second seder?

Well, 2nd day RH isn't exactly sfeka d'yoma, is it?  At least, not in the
sense of people in galut keeping minhag avoteihem.

RRW:  
> WRT to mimetics or minhagim, it is my impression that this "kulah of the
> cooler climates" is a late-comer and therfore does not have the same
> authority of more ancient minhaggin.

Carl Sherer: 
> The baalei ha'tosfos lived in France and Germany IIRC. Are you trying
> to tell me that it was so much colder in Munkatch than in France and
> Germany as to justify saying that if one ate in the Succa in Munkatch
> that would be bal tosif, yet the Tosfos living in France and Germany
> didn't see it that way? Seems kind of far fetched....

Maharil writes (and IIRC Aruch Hashulchan follows his language) that 
one doesn't *sleep* in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeret because of bal tosif,
but that one does eat there.  Why?  There's no bracha on sleep, so there's
no visible difference between sleeping on Shmini vs. sleeping the other
days - that would be bal tosif.  But by eating, one clearly doesn't make
the bracha, per the Gemara, so there is a visible difference between Shmini
and the rest of the days.  So why do they hurry out of the sukkah after
the meal?  Because on other days, it would be proper to sit & shmooze
in the sukkah.  If they sat around and swapped stories and news after
the meal, they might be under suspicion of bal tosif, again because it's
just like what they do on the other days.  But when they bring the table
and keilim inside, they should just leave them stacked by the door, else
it would be hachanah for motzi yom tov.


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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:17:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Daniel A HaLevi Yolkut <yolkut@ymail.yu.edu>
Subject:
Sukkah on Shmini Atzeres


I haven't been following closely, but I had two brief he'arois which,
if they have already been made, I apologize in advance:

1.) The Rav apparently remarked that the practice of those who do
not sit in the Sukkah shows the power of the bracha, in that a clear
halacha in the gemara seems to have become neglected due to the sense
that since there's no bracha, it can't be that important. (I have also
heard that some poskim will not tell women to tovel again without a
bracha at times when by the book that would be the appropriate p'sak,
but instead to make the bracha again, since there is a popular tendancy
to equate bracha and chiyuv.

2.) R. Tzadok wrote a sefer, which is in one of the volume of his
Kol Kisvei, which tries to defend those Chasidim who eat in the house,
(which by the way is not a universal chasidic practice, chabad does eat
in the Sukkah on SHmini).

KT,
Daniel


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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:27:31 -0400
From: Gil.Student@citicorp.com
Subject:
Re: Sukkah on Shemini Atseres


Yitzi Oratz wrote:

> You do find other places in Shas that Tosfos mentions places where the Gemorah
> says "Vihilchisa" that it was really not part of the Gemora but was added 
> later (I don't remember the places offhand but I know they exist. If anybody 
> remembers I would appreciate if he could let me know.)
     
Dr. Elazar Hurvitz told me that almost every time the gemara says vehilchisa it 
is an addition by savoraim.  Granted, he tends to be among those who are marbeh 
additions and who point to a much later for the chasimas hatalmud.

Gil Student


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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:39:52 -0400
From: Gil.Student@citicorp.com
Subject:
Re: Sukkah on Shmini Atzeres


Daniel wrote:
> 1.) The Rav apparently remarked that the practice of those who do 
> not sit in the Sukkah shows the power of the bracha, in that a clear
> halacha in the gemara seems to have become neglected due to the sense 
> that since there's no bracha, it can't be that important. (I have also 
> heard that some poskim will not tell women to tovel again without a 
> bracha at times when by the book that would be the appropriate p'sak, 
> but instead to make the bracha again, since there is a popular tendancy 
> to equate bracha and chiyuv.
     
I think R. Moshe Feinstein used this sevara to require those who put tefillin on
before the zeman (and will reach birchos kerias shema after the zeman) to do it 
with a beracha so they don't stop putting it on altogether.  When I'm in that 
situation, I can't bring myself to say the berachah, RMF notwithstanding.

Gil Student


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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 10:35:01 -0700
From: Eric Simon <erics@radix.net>
Subject:
sukkah b'shemini


>The term Atzeres seems to imply a chag w/o any speical mistva (such as
>chometz or sukkah).

I recently heard a vort, and the speaker told us that "atzeres" seems to
imply "stop"

And so: Shavuos as atzeres means that the progression from metzias mitzraim
to sinai had come to an end; shemeni atzeres comes to tell us that sukkos
(and, actually, the entire Tishrei process of RH/YK/Sukkah -- making
plans/making atonement for ourselves/making atonement for the world/one
'last' day) is at an end.  

(There are other obvious parallels vis-a-vis sukkos and pesach and tishrei
and nisan: creation of the world, a 7-day chag beginning on the 15th of the
month, the month being so filled with joy that we dispence with tachnun for
the entire month, and so forth).

- Eric


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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 16:33:03 +0200
From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
Subject:
Re: Sukkah on Shemini Atseres


On 24 Oct 2000, at 0:11, Yitzi777@aol.com wrote:
> Rav Ettlinger in his Bikurei Yaakov writes that in his time there where those 
> who had the custom not to eat in the Sukkah on Shemini Atseres. He writes 
> they were called "Mishpachas Dreyfuss." (I am not sure what the relevance of 
> that is.)

IIRC, Rav Ettlinger (Bikurei Yaakov, Aruch LaNer), lived in the first 
half of the 19th century. IIRC, he was one of the Rebbeim of RSRH. 
Not exactly a rishon....

> Rav Yeruchim Fishel Perlow in his haga'os on Bikurei Yaakov writes that it is 
> a very old machlokes Rishonim whether or not to eat in the Sukkah on Shemini 
> Atseres. He lists the following: Sefer Pardes liRashi siman 189, Machzor 
> Vitri siman 384, and Maasey Geonim siman 52. 

I wasn't aware of these until I saw Reb Shlomo's post earlier. Has 
anyone seen any of those rishonim inside? Do they deal with the 
issue of why they are seemingly holding against an explicit 
Gemara? Do any of them just have a different girsa in the gemara 
as you imply?

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.


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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 16:35:07 +0200
From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
Subject:
Smoking on Yom Tov (was Re: Avodah V6 #20)


On 23 Oct 2000, at 23:31, Eli Linas wrote:
> I thought it was because HaRav Elyashiv came out with a well publicized
> p'sak a few years ago that smoking was no longer shaveh l'kol nefesh, and
> therefore usser on Yom Tov. I know that's when I stopped...

Could be. But the Korban Nesanel said it before RYSE did....

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.


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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 10:51:18 -0400
From: "Wolpoe, Richard" <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com>
Subject:
RE: Succa on Shmini Atzeres


Harry Maryles
>                Either it is Shmeni Atzeres, or it is Sukkos. It can't
> be both. It is only because of the Sfeka Deyoma issue that we have a
> problem ...        The Gemarah gives three alternatives:
>     1. Not eating in the Sukkah at all
>     2. Eating with a Bracha and
>     3. Eating without a bracha.
> The Gemarah Paskins like the third alternative.

It seems pashut that merely sitting in the sukkah W/O a bracha is NOT ipso
facto sosier the zman of shmini atzeres because w/o a bracha that sitting
constitutes an optional sitting re:	shmini atazeres, it's as if one is
sitting on one's porch, etc.  IOW there is no intrinsic stira so long as
there is no bracha on the sukkah and that is brought down in several
places...

However, my educated <smile> guess is that in the cooler climates, eating
out in the sukkah during shmini atzeres became or evolved into a de facto
contradiction because sitting in the sukka hat that time of year was simply
not done, unless one was compelled by a mitzva.

The Yersushalmi bugs me in one aspect, how would EY yehudim be dealing with
the golah's sfeika deyoma? 

Shalom and Regards,
Rich Wolpoe
Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com  


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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:15:31 -0400
From: "Wolpoe, Richard" <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com>
Subject:
RE: HOSHANA RABBA & SHMINI ATZERES


The Breuer KAJ kehilla does not recite Ledavid. BUT there are German
communities that do, and all of those I know stop on Hoshana Rabba NOT
on Shmini Atzeres.

I don't know if R. Hamburger address this, but my impression is that the
passuk "ki yitzpeneini besukko" ends with hoshana rabba, even in Golah.
Now this does not preclude sitting in the Sukkah misafeik, but it
hints that the final sitting min hadin is after all on hoshana rabba,
even in golah. I get the feeling that even amongst those "yekkes" who
sit in the Sukkah on Shmini Atzeres, that this is a more lenient case.
Rav Gelley hosted his "Matnas Yad" reception in his parlor on Shmini
Azteres afternoon and NOT in his Sukkah. I get the impression that
even those that are kovei'a all seudos in the Sukkah on Shmini Atzeres,
are more meikel about snacks than they would be during Sukkos mamash.
And it seems widely excepted that those who sleep in the Sukkah on Sukkos
refrain from doing so on Shmini Atzeres, though the KSA leans to being
machmir on sleep too.

The hefsek between eating in the Sukkah on Sukkos and those who eat
partially on Shmini Atzeres is analogous to me to the hefsek of tekios
reshus and chova. IOW, if we leave the Sukkah on the eve of Shmini
Atzeres we are indicating the hefsek between the real din of Sukkah and
the "reshus" of Sukkah, or more properly the sfeika dyoma of Sukkah

Shalom and Regards,
Rich Wolpoe
Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com  


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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:24:50 -0400
From: "Wolpoe, Richard" <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com>
Subject:
RE: Sukkah Sensitivity on Shmini Atzeres


> Maharil writes (and IIRC Aruch Hashulchan follows his language) that 
> one doesn't *sleep* in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeret because of bal tosif,
> but that one does eat there.  Why?  There's no bracha on sleep, so there's
> no visible difference between sleeping on Shmini vs. sleeping the other
> days - that would be bal tosif.  But by eating, one clearly doesn't make
> the bracha, per the Gemara, so there is a visible difference...

This dovetails well with my previous post that on Shimni Atzeres "snacking"
is not done in the Sukkah, Sinceuse even on Sukkos there is no bracha on
many/most snacks therefore on Shmini Atzeres it would be indistinguishable
from Sukkos...

And FWIW, the German communities generally follow the Maharil...

Shalom and Regards,
Rich Wolpoe
Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com  


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:15:15 +0200
From: "S. Goldstein" <goldstin@netvision.net.il>
Subject:
[none]


In Sanhed. 104 "Dorshei Rshumos" darshen a pasuk to give olam haba to
the Jewish kings and others against the Mishnah. However, they don't
argue with the entire Mishnah. Apikorsim are still out.

The cited R Zadok (p122 in Yisroel Kdoshim) agrees with this understanding.
He expands that apikorsim are different because they derive (spiritually,
I think) from the "erev rav".


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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 12:17:19 -0400
From: "Wolpoe, Richard" <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com>
Subject:
RE: Sukkah on Shemini Atseres


-- Carl
> Do they deal with the issue of why {the Rishonim} are seemingly holding
> against an explicit Gemara? 

As I've posted before, this can happen at times with Minhag Ashkenaz, E.G.
Kitniyos

Rich Wolpoe


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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 19:08:49 +0200
From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
Subject:
RE: Sukkah Sensitivity on Shmini Atzeres


On 24 Oct 2000, at 11:24, Wolpoe, Richard wrote:
>>                                  But by eating, one clearly doesn't make
>> the bracha, per the Gemara, so there is a visible difference...

> This dovetails well with my previous post that on Shimni Atzeres "snacking"
> is not done in the Sukkah

Yes, but see the Chaye Adam (I think it's 137:13, but I don't have 
one at work...), who seems to say that even when one is going to 
sleep in the Succa one should find a reason to say a bracha (with 
thanks to REMT who helped me to clarify my understanding of the 
Chaye Adam last week).

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.


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