Avodah Mailing List

Volume 06 : Number 005

Thursday, October 5 2000

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 18:00:45 EDT
From: C1A1Brown@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Fish on Rosh Hashanah/simcha


We discussed this at Pesach time, see avodah vol 4 #474.

Whether you need real meat is also in Sha'agas Arye, see Beitza 10b 'asi
l'imnuyei m'simchas Y"T' referring to not being able to shecht birds.
R' Ovadya Yosef collects some more sources in Yechave Da'as on this.

Certainly those who take simcha to mean parallel to korbanos would object
to chicken, fish, or venison. However, whether that is the majority
view of Rishonim or achronim is debatable.


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Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 17:35:45 EDT
From: Richard Wolpoe <PMSRXW@IBIVM.IBI.COM>
Subject:
Thoughts on Yom Kippur Viduy (nusach)


It was noted in a lecture by a cantoral student from the Belz School, that
all the popular melodies to Ashamnu are in a major key.
Why?

This motif actually suggests that the process of unburdening ourselves is
actually a cause for joy!

How does this work?

  Imagine a King who offers complete amnesty for all crimes on one
  condition, that on one day all subjects gather and confess any and all
  misdeeds; and that as soon as the confession is complete we are granted
  amnesty. Wouldn't this bring tremendous relief?

So too with the viduy/confession.  As soon as we acknowledge what we have
done, G-d pardons.  What a concept! What a Relief!

"Gmar Chasima Tova"
Regards,
Rich Wolpoe
pmsrxw@ibivm.ibi.com


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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:50:51 EDT
From: YFel912928@aol.com
Subject:
"Shaarei Tshuvah" 6


    We come now to the last of the sixth instances in which you're likely to 
be moved to tshuvah:
    Upon recognizing that you might "greet G-d" (i.e., pass away) at any 
moment
    Unlike the previous entry, this last one is rather lengthy, and 
challenges us to do our best to encapsulate its essence.
    Rabbeinu Yonah points out that we'd do well to scrutinize our ways, 
confess, and fear Hashem all the time, because one never knows when his end 
will come (∂15). Apparently that's RY's advice for avoiding aveiros, since he 
then underscores the fact that we're to be even more *proactive* as well, by 
doing new mitzvot every day (∂16). 
    The truth be known, RY continues, some people are as oblivious to death 
as animals are, and do nothing to prepare for it (∂17). He then elaborates on 
the character of such individuals. Some of them live only to satisfy their 
earthly cravings rather than to serve Hashem. They're said to stay rooted to 
the earth after death (∂18). And others of them are hidden sinners who 
descend to the nether world after death (when the secretly righteous join the 
angels above). 
    That having been considered we're thus counseled to be wise and to see 
this world as as short-lived as a bird's shadow flitting by. And to only use 
it in the service of Hashem (∂19). In fact, the whole point of Sefer Kohelet 
is to impress upon us the fact that the world is vacuous, and should only be 
used in the service of Hashem (∂20). 
    G-d sent us to this world, RY adds, to keep His watch and to observe His 
mitzvot. We're to obey our charge, and thus return to Him as His faithful, 
happy servant (∂21). So always remember the fact of death in order not to 
slacken off in your service to G-d (∂22). Forget the fact of death, though, 
and youíll think you have a lot of time to accomplish things, when you donít 
(∂23). Recall as well that as long as you're alive, you have a chance to do 
tshuvah and to grow (∂24). 
    Always remember that you're derived from a turgid drop and where you're 
destined to go, and you'll use this world to serve G-d. Remember as well that 
you'll be giving a reckoning to G-d someday, and you'll fear Him (∂25).
    RY's last point is that it's important to always take tochacha to heart, 
reflect and expand upon it on your own, to do as much as you can to improve 
yourself, and to study Torah as soon and as often as you can for a multitude 
of vital reasons (∂26-∂34).

    -- Yaakov Feldman
    This series was adapted from my original translation with comments to 
Shaarei Tshuva ("The Gates of Repentance", Jason Aronson Publishers).

    May all of Clal Yisrael be zoche to a g'mar chasima tovah!


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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:34:46 -0400
From: "Feldman, Mark" <MFeldman@CM-P.COM>
Subject:
Bar Mitzvah before Yom Kippur


The following are the various answers I received to the query I posed last
week (including my own response), both on and off-line:

----------

See very first parsha of Eliyahu Rabba dibbur hamaschil "davar achair
yamim": Loose translation:

Yom Kippur was is a great simcha before Hashem and was given to Israel with
great love.  This can compared ("mashal l'ma hadavar domeh") to a king of
flesh and blood whose servants and household were taking out the garbage and
throwing it near the entrance of the king's home.  When the king would go
out and see the garbage, he would be very happy ("sameach simcha gedolah").
Thus Yom Kippur is compared to this, as Hashem gave it with great love and
happiness.  And not only this, but when Hashem forgives the sins of Israel,
he is not sad in his heart but he is very happy and says to the hills and
valleys...come and be happy with me, as I am forgiving the sins of Israel.

---------

"Gilu b'Re'ada" - Tehillim

"Ani smachti mitoch yirasi v'yar'eisi mitoch simchasi" - Tanna D'Bei Eliyahu

I believe the Melamed l'Hoil was asked if you can get married during Aseres 
Yemei Teshuva and he responded that  he certainly hoped so because he 
(RDZH) was married during the Aseres Yemei Teshuva!
------------------

R' Ovadiah addresses such a minhag not to get married during the AYT.
He says lihefech -- it's a good z'chus to bring with you into Yom Kippur!

-----------------

Although I would strongly advise against it, since even if there is no
stirah it is still not the proper way to prepare for yom hadin (it is
certainly hesech hada'as, if nothing else), how about "gilu biradah"?
Or the lo hayu yamim tovim l'yisrael k'mo ... yom hakippurim ... bnos
Yisroel yotzos v'cholos bakramim [Mishnah Taanit 4:8]? (Although that was
basically after Neilah.)

----------------------

see the Rosh at the end of Meseches Rosh Hashana that Yom Kippur has a din
of Yom Tov according to the Geonim

-------------------

Moshe


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Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 18:54:40 EDT
From: Richard Wolpoe <PMSRXW@IBIVM.IBI.COM>
Subject:
Re: Fish on Rosh Hashanah/simcha (fwd)


>Certainly those who take simcha to mean parallel to korbanos would object
>to chicken, fish, or venison. However, whether that is the majority
>view of Rishonim or achronim is debatable.

ein hachi nami we can have different criteria...
lemoshol:
1) brought on the mizbeyach
2) requires shechita
3) fulfils taavo (otherwise just what was Moshe Rabbeinu's
hava amino to suggest fish instead of fowl?)

I did take a peak at Vol #474

My original query remains, i.e:
"Are there any sources stating that: 'yes, fish is yotzei'".

(and it is quite conceivable that chicken might have been a
"poor man's compromise for 'bossor'")

"Gmar Chasima Tova"
Regards,
Rich Wolpoe
pmsrxw@ibivm.ibi.com


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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 19:43:21 EDT
From: Zeliglaw@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Avodah V6 #4


> I have not looked up the mkoros other than the Zichron Shlomo, which I
> used many years ago to get my wife to serve "real" meat on Yom Tov :-)

Every meal? no chicken? I understand the shita of the Shaagas aryeh that 
holds that  aimcha means basar vyayin  but there are other shitos that learn 
that the drasha is doraisa when we have a Beis HaMikdash.
                                              Steven Brizel
                                               Zeliglaw@aol.com


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Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 01:47:46 -0400
From: Isaac A Zlochower <zlochoia@bellatlantic.net>
Subject:
Fish on Rosh Hashannah


I don't recall seeing the citation of an obvious reference in Tanach to
the obligation of dining well on Rosh Hashannah.  It can be found in
Nechemiah 8:, "Ezra brought the (sefer) Torah before the assemblage...on
the first day of the seventh month.  And he read from it.. from daylight
until noon..(Neh. 8: 2,3)... Nechemiah (the governor) and Ezra Hakohen,
the scribe..said to the people do not mourn and do not cry (after
hearing the Tochachah in Ki Tavo) for today is holy for Hashem your
G-D...He said to them, 'Go eat heartily, drink fine (wine), and send
portions to those who haven't prepared them.. All the people then went
to eat and drink, to send portions and to rejoice greatly..(ibid 9-12)."

If I remember correctly, these verses are the source for the obligation
of dining on meat and wine on Yom Tov as well as the talmudic aphorism
that Yom Tov is half for G-D and half for us.  If so, then the view of
those who do not consider Rosh Hashannah as a Yom Tov in this connection
requires an explanation.

Yitzchok Zlochower


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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 22:28:59 -0400
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
Subject:
simcha on R"H


From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@internet.il>
> I am still in the office, so I have nothing in front of me, but 
> IIRC, isn't there a pasuk somewhere in Navi that goes something like "Lech 
> echol b'simcha lachmecha..." from which we learn that there is 
> Simchas Yom Tov on Rosh haShanna? 

        Nechemia 8:10,  source of mishloach manos on Rosh Hashana <g>

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com


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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:29:00 +0200
From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
Subject:
Re: Fish on Rosh Hashanah/simcha


On 4 Oct 00, at 17:31, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
>> Says who?

> Mimetics?!
> Or are you saying all those who ate chicken only on Shabbos
> were never yotzei yedei simchas bossor?

Simchas bosor is an inyan of Yom Tov (v'samachta b'chagecha) 
and not Shabbos, the zemer (basar v'dagim v'chol mat'amim) 
notwithstanding.

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Gmar Chasima Tova (or Gmar Chatima Tova,
depending on your preference).
May you and yours be sealed in
the books of life, health and happiness.


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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:12:04 -0400
From: Gil.Student@citicorp.com
Subject:
Re: Fish on Rosh Hashanah/simcha


Rich Wolpoe wrote:
> Mimetics?!
> Or are you saying all those who ate chicken only on Shabbos 
> were never yotzei yedei simchas bossor?
     
Surprisingly, the gemara is very clear that eating meat was a kiyum of simchah 
only bizman habayis.  Bizman hazeh ein simchah ela beyayin.  The Rambam says 
that you still need meat, and the Beis Yosef says the Rambam is shver because of
the gemara.  See the Ein Mishpat in Pesachim 109a for the exact references.

Mimetics tells me that we follow the opinion of the Shulchan Aruch and the 
simple reading of the gemara that drinking wine on Yom Tov is a sufficient 
kiyum.

Gil Student


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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 19:39:32 EDT
From: Zeliglaw@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Avodah V6 #4


> If so, I would assume this is brought in Halichos Shlomo?

It is brought in Halichos Shlomo that RSZA and RSYA both had this kavavah.
                                           Steven Brizal
                                             Zeliglaw@aol.com


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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 20:52:08 +0000
From: sadya n targum <targum1@juno.com>
Subject:
re:redundancy in Rosh Hashana Musaf


I don't recall where I saw it (could it have been in the Tikutsinsky
luach?), but the suggestion was to say "ushnai s'midim khilchasam,
_kakasuv_ milvad olas hachodesh etc."

Sadya N. Targum


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Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 04:35:19 +1000
From: SBA <sba@blaze.net.au>
Subject:
Redundancy in R"H Mussaf


From: "Eliyohu Hoffmann"
> Now, how could the afformentioned be "Not including the Olas ha-tamid," if
> the Olas ha-tamid is indeed mentioned???...

Have a look at the Siddur Otzar Tefilos where - for the above reasons -
he brings several variations to the nusach - beshem various authorities.

SBA


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Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 08:54:07 -0500
From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject:
Gmar Tov


RSBA cited the Munkatcher earlier against this blessing - but even 
k'pshuto, doesn't the Gemara in the third perek of MK say a person is 
nikkar from his levaya and the hepsedim - so what greater blessing than to 
have a good ending?

KT,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb


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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 22:09:53 -0400
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
Subject:
morah av ve'em


> I would say that a parent's kavod is not equal to HKB"H's kavod because
> a parent can be mochel.

        All this machshava aside,  (and I do appreciate it) does anyone
have any idea about the halacha of this?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com


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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:37:50 -0400
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
Subject:
seforim niftachim


        We ask, in Avinu Malkenu,  to be written in many different
seforim.  What is the source of all these or is it just an idiomatic
expression?  The only seforim I am aware of are the shelosha seforim
niftachim,  tzadikim, resha'im and beinonim.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com


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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:24:25 +0300 (IDT)
From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
Subject:
yigdal


> Are you aware that some Hasidic siddurim omit Yigdal from Shaharit on
> the grounds that it does not portray correctly the 13 Ikkarim.

It is said that the Ari did not say yigdal while the Sheloh praised yigdal.
It is not clear what the objections to yigdal were.
R. David Cohen claims that yigdal was written by an Italian poet who also
wrote love poems and that was the objection. I personally have grave problems
with that approach. RYBS objected to yigdal in that it was to close to
Xtian ideas of listing ones beliefs.

KT
Eli Turkel


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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 16:33:00 +0200
From: D & E-H Bannett <dbnet@barak-online.net>
Subject:
Re: machnisei rahamim


R'RW wrote:
> those who do object to Machnisei Rachamim can rightfully
> cite that on a plain level, it is phrased as a request to being other than
> G-d and had no place in a Tefillah

Not every request is a tefilla. I request things all the time from human
beings. I can even ask them to pray to God on my behalf. And the old one:
I'm machmir with my wife. Mach mir a glos tei, mach mir a sendvich.

A request is a tefila only when addressed to a supernatural being.
So the question is: who or what are Makhnisei rahamim, midat harahamim,
bamarom yelamedu aleinu, barekhuni leshalom malakhei hashalom, etc.

As I believe I wrote in a previous posting, I usually skip them all but
sometimes say midat harahamim with the corrected text. Not only is a mida
not a being, supernatural or otherwise, but asking someone or something to
pray to God on my behalf sounds better to me than making it/him/her into
a shaliach. I believe in direct contact and have absolutely no knowledge
or understanding about the routing and bureaucracy of HKBH'S household.

Gemar Tov le-khulam,
David


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Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 09:45:20 -0400
From: "Allen Baruch" <Abaruch@lifebridgehealth.org>
Subject:
re:Machnisei Rachamim Apologetics


>My point, other than to share this vort, is to point out that asking for
>delivery is also a bakashah. ...
>So yes, you're asking them for delivery, not for the rachamim. But does it
>make the problem any less acute?

R'SY Weinberg ztl gave a very strong shmooze regarding this when 
the Artscroll Slichos came out.
In essence he said that 100% we are not making a bakosha to
the maloch. Rather, it's b'geder "Ana Melech Malchei haOlamim, 
tzavei l'malachecha..." in Ribon Kol HaOlamim.
(He said some *very* strong things, but as it's been several years, I'll
see if I can get hold of a tape before I quote from memory.)

kol tuv, gct
Sender Baruch


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Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 09:51:55 -0400
From: "Allen Baruch" <Abaruch@lifebridgehealth.org>
Subject:
re: Machnisei Rachamim Apologetics


>Similarly, we can expect that communication systems do their
>job w/o a miracle.  Would we say that a bakasha to a Chazzan/Shatz
>"please daven with extra kavvanah" violates the 5th Ikkar?
>I doubt it.  Similarly asking the conveyors of tefillos to
>pay special attention is not a Tefillah to the mal'achim
>rather it is simply a request
>that they don't fumble somthing in the process of delivery.

The Rosh HaYeshiva ztl dealt with this as well. 
( I still have not reviewed a tape, all mistakes are mine)
b'kiztur:
Tefila = bakosha (request)
A bakosha to a maloch is 100% assur.
A tefila (request) to basar v'dom is permitted (asking a favor is tefila)
The difference between a human and a maloch (or anything else)
is that a person has bechira. 
The maloch here has no bechira -if the tefila to HKBH is said properly,
the maloch *must* deliver properly...
Again, he was m'dama it to "...tzavai l'malochecha...ki hidlakti nairosai..."

kol tuv, gct
Sender Baruch


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Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 10:38:40 EDT
From: Richard Wolpoe <PMSRXW@IBIVM.IBI.COM>
Subject:
Re: re:Machnisei Rachamim Apologetics


On Thu, 5 Oct 2000 10:23:18 -0400 Allen Baruch said:
>R'SY Weinberg ztl ... said that 100% we are not making a bakosha to
>the maloch. Rather, it's b'geder "Ana Melech Malchei haOlamim,
>tzavei l'malachecha..." in Ribon Kol HaOlamim.

I tend to agree.  Although it is NOT phrased that way at all
I suspect the paytan was meaning it as a request that HKBH
make sure that His malachim preform their tasks enthusiastically...
I think that this is a case of poetic license.

After all does anyone think that
"Keil Melech Yosheiv al kisei Rachamim"
violates "ein lo dmus haguf"?
I doubt it, rather we are just USED to that metaphor and pay it no mind

I am suggesting the same benefit be given to "machnisei"

"Gmar Chasima Tova"
Regards,
Rich Wolpoe
pmsrxw@ibivm.ibi.com


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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:54:05 -0400
From: Gil.Student@citicorp.com
Subject:
Re: Visiting the Temple Mount


[I think this topic moved far enough from current events into a discussion
of halachah to warrant being on Avodah. -mi]

I wrote:

<<The gemara (Makkos 24a) says "keivan shehigiu lehar habayis" which 
could mean that they were on har habayis or almost on har habayis.>>

RG Dubin wrote:

> Isn't that exactly the issue-were they on or almost on?

My point was that there is no proof from the ma'aseh with R. Akiva.

RC Sherer wrote:

>> See above. There is also a Kappos Tmorim in Succa (daf 36?) who 
>> raises the possibility that we should be bringing Korban Pesach 
>> today.

> This is actually Succa 34b s"v Shel Maaser Sheini. It's pages 61-
> 63 in the edition of Sheimos BaAretz that I have. If you don't have 
> time for the whole thing, read the last two paragraphs. Anyone who 
> needs a fax of it, let me know. Fascinating stuff. BTW - that web 
> site discusses a shita of R. Akiva Eiger which allows the Korban 
> Pesach to be brought b'tuma (b'zman hazeh?). No cite given. 
> RYZD - can we coax you out of lurk mode briefly? My Shu"t R. 
> Akiva Eiger doesn't have a mafteach :-)

There are many poskim who discuss this.  IIRC, the Chasam Sofer agrees with his 
father-in-law on this.  The Netziv in his peirush al haTorah (on "velo ariach 
berei'ach nichochachem") agrees as well.  I think R. Moshe Shternbuch also 
discusses this in his Moadim Uzmanim.  R. Yechiel Michel Tukitchinsky has an 
excellent treatment of this topic in his Ir HaKodesh VeHamikdash.

IIRC, the main problem that everyone has is that we don't know where the 
mizbeach should be.

Gil Student


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Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 09:13:00 -0500
From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject:
Re: Visiting the Temple Mount


At 09:54 AM 10/5/00 -0400, Gil Student wrote:
>There are many poskim who discuss this. IIRC, the Chasam Sofer agrees with his
>father-in-law on this.  The Netziv in his peirush al haTorah (on "velo ariach
>berei'ach nichochachem") agrees as well.  I think R. Moshe Shternbuch also
>discusses this in his Moadim Uzmanim.  R. Yechiel Michel Tukitchinsky has an
>excellent treatment of this topic in his Ir HaKodesh VeHamikdash.

During R' Akiva's time, they still had Para Aduma ashes - no problem, then, 
ascending the HhB.

The definite exposition (upon which my shiur, available on tape, is based) 
of why we cannot resotre Avodas Ha'Korbonso, is in R' Dovid Friedman (the 
She'eilas Dovid)'s rebuttal or R' TZH Kalischer's Derishas Tziyon 
v'Yerushalayim.

KT,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb


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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 17:19:50 +0200
From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
Subject:
Re: Visiting the Temple Mount


On 5 Oct 2000, at 9:13, Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M wrote:
> During R' Akiva's time, they still had Para Aduma ashes - no problem,
> then, ascending the HhB.

Nicha. But how do you explain the shul which (apparently) existed 
on Har HaBayis from the 7th through the 11th centuries? Unless 
you argue that we actually did know which parts are more kadosh 
and which less kadosh at that time and have since forgotten (which 
seems to me to be far fetched), how were people allowed to go 
onto Har HaBayis to a shul (which at least at one time was 
apparently located where Al-Aqsa is today)?

-- Carl


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Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 10:44:27 EDT
From: Richard Wolpoe <PMSRXW@IBIVM.IBI.COM>
Subject:
Re: yigdal


On Thu, 5 Oct 2000 10:22:59 -0400 Eli Turkel said:
><snip> RYBS objected to yigdal in that it was to close to
>Xtian ideas of listing ones beliefs.

Well that is one of the main points of ikkarim in the first place.
i.e. to distinguish us from Xtians, Moslems, Karaites, Sadduccess, etc.

Now I'm curious if perhaps RYBS was speaking
in the context of a post-Reform era
when a "belief" system has often been falsely construed as a
substitute for observance?

I would also suggest that w/o Ikkarim the geirus process today
would be very difficult.  By outlining what Torah stands for
it implies what a "geir" is leaving.

"Gmar Chasima Tova"
Regards,
Rich Wolpoe
pmsrxw@ibivm.ibi.com


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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 11:05:57 -0400
From: Gil.Student@citicorp.com
Subject:
Re: Fish on Rosh Hashanah/simcha


> Do you have a cite for this? (Please tell me it's in the chelek I have and not
> in the chelek that is out of print :-) 

Shiurim LeZecher Aba Mori, Vol. II p. 189

It's also summarized in R. Hershel Schachter's Eretz HaTzvi pp. 19-20 n. 15

Gil Student


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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 11:17:59 -0400
From: Gil.Student@citicorp.com
Subject:
Re: yigdal


RE Turkel wrote:

> RYBS objected to yigdal in that it was to close to Xtian ideas of listing ones
> beliefs.
     
I thought the problem he had was *reciting* those beliefs during the prayer 
services.

Gil Student


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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 18:15:34 +0200
From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
Subject:
Simchas Yom Tov (was Re: Avodah V6 #4)


On 4 Oct 2000, at 19:43, Zeliglaw@aol.com wrote:
> I understand the shita of the Shaagas aryeh
> that holds that  aimcha means basar vyayin  but there are other shitos
> that learn that the drasha is doraisa when we have a Beis HaMikdash.

Look at the Biur in Zichron Shlomo....

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.


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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 18:13:29 +0200
From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
Subject:
Re: seforim niftachim


On 4 Oct 2000, at 23:37, Gershon Dubin wrote:

>         We ask, in Avinu Malkenu,  to be written in many different
> seforim.  What is the source of all these or is it just an idiomatic
> expression?  The only seforim I am aware of are the shelosha seforim
> niftachim,  tzadikim, resha'im and beinonim.

I was under the impression that each of those sforim in Avinu 
Malkeinu has three components (tzadikim, reshaim and beinonim), 
but I have no real basis for saying that.

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.


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Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 10:03:14 -0500
From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject:
Re: Visiting the Temple Mount


At 05:19 PM 10/5/00 +0200, you wrote:
>Nicha. But how do you explain the shul which (apparently) existed
>on Har HaBayis from the 7th through the 11th centuries? Unless
>you argue that we actually did know which parts are more kadosh
>and which less kadosh at that time and have since forgotten ...

We actually do know some part of the HhB - on the north side, where there 
is no original wall - that were definitely not part of the original HhB. 
The Shul was likely over there. Otherwise it was a gagin, aliyos or 
mechilin type structure.

KT,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb


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Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 10:45:56 -0500
From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject:
Re: Visiting the Temple Mount


At 06:27 PM 10/5/00 +0200, Carl M. Sherer wrote:
>The web page that RAA sent me to last night claims it was
>originally where Al-Aqsa is now. That would be the southeast
>corner of the Har HaBayis. Do we know for a fact that there were
>gagin, aliyos or mechilin back then? Or do we have to assume that ...

I have no idea. The walls there are definitely original. So far as I know, 
R' Mordechai Eliyahu's proposal was for the North Side. Tzarich iyun.

>                                                    I'm asking if R.
> Dovid Friedman's rebuttal is printed anywhere.

Shut She'eilas Dovid. The sefer is ba'nimtza, and, if not, it is on the Bar 
Ilan CD, I believe.

KT,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb


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