Avodah Mailing List

Volume 05 : Number 021

Sunday, April 16 2000

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 00:03:18 -0400
From: sambo@charm.net
Re: Article

"Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" wrote:

> all those who requested it in Word or WP format. I guess I can also send it
> in HTML, if someone wants. But you must ask me soon, as we are leaving IY"H
> to EY right after Shabbos.

Shavuah Tove.

Assuming I missed him after Shabbat, Would someone be kind enough to
send me an HTML version if you got one?

Thank you.


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Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:51:41 +1000
From: SBA <sba@blaze.net.au>
Dor Revi'i on relations with reshaim (aka secular Zionists)

>David Glasner     Subject: Dor Revi'i on relations with reshaim (aka
secular Zionists)

>>>>...Herewith the Dor Revi'i:

>Or perhaps you intend to say, with this slogan of Hirsch ("the nation
of the Torah")
>that the Orthodox organization, Agudat Yisrael, has
>become the essence of the Jewish people, even though it only
>within it a minority, because all the rest does not belong to the
>Nonsense such as this I do not want to attribute to his honor, because
>doctrine of isolation, as it is understood and interpreted in practice
in a country
>that has both Orthodoxy and Neologism (Reform) cannot be compared to
>doctrine of isolationism from the entire Jewish nation.

I can't understand why he accepted doctrine of isolation in an
entire country (Hungary) - but cannot accept it for Klall Yisroel.

And what would the DR have said about the Yossi Sarids and the
Tommy Lapids? Was he so tolerant only on passive secular Zionists
or would he have accepted Meharsei Hadass as well?
Is there anything about that in his writings?


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Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:54:14 +1000
From: SBA <sba@blaze.net.au>
Interesting to note!

Shalom Carmy wrote:                       Subject: Interesting to note!

>> BTW it's interesting to note that the first 3 letters of Sarid's name

>> in Hebew are RT for "Shem Reshoim Yirkov."

>I had never before noticed this, perhaps because Sarid is
>spelled with a "sin" ....

"Sin" seems pretty apt - when referring to Sarid...

>...rather than a "shin."

As in Velamal"shin"im...?

I understand that with some older Litvaks Shin and Sin do the same job.

>...Rav Yosi Sarid, who is...not identical with the politician with the
name. I wonder if anyone is interested in sharing with him...

The first half of that Posuk is Zecher Tzaddik L'vrocho.
Maybe the Rav qualifies?

>As Iyyov says (chapter 6): "Ma nimretsu imrei yosher ve-gomer."

And as Shlomo Hamelech says (in Mishlei):
"Matzdik Rosho uMarshia Tzaddik, To'ahvas Hashem Gam Shneyhem".

A Guteh Voch


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Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:37:50 +0200
From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
RE: Dor Revi'i on relations with reshaim (aka secular Zionists)

> Even if the whole nation, G-d forbid, were to forget itself
> to such an
> extent that it worships idols - as long as it guards its
> unity, it is certain
> that it will return to itself.

But today the secular/Reform segments *do not* guard our unity -- they
encourage intermarriage. Furthermore, they deny any uniqueness to the Jewish
people or our heritage.

*They* are the ones splitting the nation. How open-minded and forgiving does
the Dor Revii expect us to be? Even HKBH had limits (80% of the Jews were
killed in mitzrayim, more after the Chet haEgel, more still after Zimri,

(There was an excellent article in Jewish Action a few years ago by R' Chaim
Eisen where he compares Reform to Christianity, as an example of a new
religion arising out of Judaism.)


A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

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Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 10:30:51 +0200
From: Yehuda & Rebecca Poch <butrfly@actcom.co.il>
Tal Commission report

>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:39:00 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: Tal Commission
>- --- Eli Turkel <turkel@post.tau.ac.il> wrote:
>> it
>> is reported that Rav Eliyashiv, Rav Steinman and
>> other gedolim are in favor of
>> the compromise it also reported that many other
>> rabbonim oppose the compromise.
>> Their position is that no one should leave the
>> yeshiva, ever, for any reason.
>> It certainly has nothing to do with manual labor
>> versus university learning.
>> It particular some of the Brisker robbanim wanted to
>> prevent anyone from
>> talking to the givernment about any compromises.
>I know of at least one Brisker, R. Aaron Soloveichik.
>He would support such a compromise.  His Grandson, R.
>Yitzchok Zev HaLevi Soloveichik, is presently in the
>Hesder program at KBY.
>It would be nice to be Mefarsem this information to
>the Israeli branch of the Family.
Rav Aaron's son, Rav Chaim, is the rav of our shul in Ramat Beit Shemesh,
and someone I have known personally for 20 years.
He also supports the idea that there should be some sort of compromise.
I don't know who these briskers in Israel are, who are against it, but my
contact with the immediate dynasty indicates that the brisker position is
not against the report.
   ____ \/ ____					   ____ \/ ____
   \ o \||/ o /       Chag Kasher Vesameach        \ o \||/ o /
    \ ^ || ^ /       Yehuda and Rebecca Poch	    \ ^ || ^ /
     >--||--<       Ramat Beit Shemesh, Israel	     >--||--<
    / v || v \         butrfly@actcom.co.il	    / v || v \
   /___/  \___\  				   /___/  \___\


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Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 10:33:29 +0200
From: Yehuda & Rebecca Poch <butrfly@actcom.co.il>
MO are Orthodox

With apologies to Jeff Zuckerman and others on the list and off who might
have been slighted by my first posting.  I, too, am MO, and I certainly did
not mean to imply that MO are not religious.  It was my mistake not to
include the prefix "ultra" before the term religious, or not to replace it
with the word "haredi".  Excuse me for not using the proper labels.

Perhaps it is my presence in Israel, where the term "dati'im" is often used
interchangeably with "haredim", often to the exclusion of the MO.
   ____ \/ ____					   ____ \/ ____
   \ o \||/ o /       Chag Kasher Vesameach        \ o \||/ o /
    \ ^ || ^ /       Yehuda and Rebecca Poch	    \ ^ || ^ /
     >--||--<       Ramat Beit Shemesh, Israel	     >--||--<
    / v || v \         butrfly@actcom.co.il	    / v || v \
   /___/  \___\  				   /___/  \___\


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Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 21:50:56 +0100
From: Chana/Heather Luntz <Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk>
Re: The "Children at Risk" issues of the Jewish Observer

In message , Carl M. Sherer <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> writes
>I had a guest at my house last month from the US (who is on this 
>list) who IIRC said that one of the things they are now finding is 
>that kids are maintaining the outer entrapments of being Charedi in 
>the US, but are still descending into drugs and promiscuity. 
>Someone anonymously sent me emails telling me about kids being 
>arrested for drug dealing in shuls in Boro Park and Monsey. 
>Hashem Yerachem! I don't know of any such incidents here, 
>certainly among teenagers. 

I have heard reports about this occurring in Israel (although i do not
have the tools to ascertain their veracity).  If anything, my informants
claim that the situation is worse, because, without going into the army,
they can't work, and most of them don't (and maybe even don't want) to
go into the army (it is a bit too socially responsible) and tend to hang
around street corners - and of course drugs (and promiscuity) are the
obvious ways of a) killing time and b) earning money when legitimate
means are barred.  Again the claim is that the trappings (eg the
clothing etc) are being maintained, as there is a large enough group
that one can get sufficient peer support without abandoning the dress.

>- -- Carl

Shavuah tov


>Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
>Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
>Telephone 972-2-625-7751
>Fax 972-2-625-0461
>Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
>Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
>Thank you very much.

Chana/Heather Luntz

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Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:31:49 EDT
From: MIKE38CT@aol.com
Sefardic/Ashkenazic marriage and pesach

When a Sephardic woman marries an Ashkenazic man, she is halachically 
required to follow his minhagim regarding pesach (no kitniyot, etc.).  Ditto 
for the reverse--it's the husband's customs that are followed.  However, I 
was just told that if a Sephardic wife is eating in her parents' house during 
Pesach, she is allowed to eat kitniyot--even though she has adapted her 
husband's customs.  This seems strange (althogh it does stress the importance 
of kibud av v'aim in our religion).  Has anyone heard of this rule?  Is it 
brought down in any codification of Jewish law?  Does this rule apply only if 
she is alone with her parents, or even when she is with her husband at her 

Any responses would be appreciated.  Thank you.

Michael Feldstein
Stamford, CT

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Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:06:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: jjbaker@panix.com

More on RSL as mover or as ornament:

If RSL was the head of the Committee on Jewish Law and Standards,
he may have been a mover as far as retarding the progress of 
egalitarianism.  The Driving Responsum, the Lieberman Clause (in
the ketubah), and the permission for women to receive aliyot passed
in the 1950s, when RSL was active.  Nothing else egalitarian happened
until after RSL's death.  Significantly, women counting in the minyan
was not passed until 1973, the year RSL died.  I would guess that it
could not have passed while Lieberman exerted his conservative in-
fluence.  After that, the innovations came thick and fast for ten
years, leading to the present state of affairs.

If he was such an influential leader, why was he not cited once in
the collection on the ordination of women as rabbis?  It contains 
responsa both pro and con.

Jonathan Baker

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Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 22:23:36 +0300
From: D & E-H Bannett <dbnet@barak-online.net>
Re: RSL and CJ

The following anecdote is, I believe, an interesting sidelight on the RSL and CJ thread 
and the comment made in Avodah:

<He (R' D. Weiss Halivni) writes (in "The Book and the Sword" - his <memoirs) having 
seen Dr. Finkelstein crying over the direction that JTS <was going.  RDWH moved a 
bit to the left of RSL and he left the seminary <over the reforms. Had RSL been alive it 
can be assumed that he too would <have left.

Over 30 years ago, my brother-in-law (z"l) moved into Nayot, a new neighborhood in 
Jerusalem. As usual in those days, the city planners allotted space for shopping areas 
and public buildings but left no space for a synagogue.  At that time, the CJ 
movement had a JTS building in the area used by them as an office.  As this was 
before their attempt at acceptance as legitimate in Israel, they did not use it as a 

Having no other place, my brother-in-law requested permission to use one of the 
rooms in the CJ building to hold Shabbat services for the new neighbors.  Dr. 
Finkelstein happened to be their at the time and the matter was referred to him.

He spoke to my brother-in-law and agreed that the neighbors could hold Shabbat 
services in the building on one condition.  The condition was that there NOT be mixed 

CJ has gone a long way since then.

Chag kasher ve-sameach le-khol 'Am Yisrael, 


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Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:00:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
We are here!

We rented a cell phone (best deal was Access Plus in Yerushalayim). Since
incoming calls are free, please do not hesitate to call!

053 479 365.



Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

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Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:20:46 +0300
From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toramada@zahav.net.il>
Re: Avodah V5 #19

----- Original Message ----- > Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:32:31 -0500
> From: BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il
> Subject: Email file (RICE.TXT)
>    3) before cooking, the rice is checked grain by grain for
>       of any of the 5 forbidden grains [for anyone who has ever
>       a wholesale grain market and has seen 200 pound sacks of rice
>       burlap bags, knows what I'm referring to].

I must say that checking rice grain by grain isn't so bad.  Women do
it regularly <g>.
Anyway, before Pesah, we take out a white table cloth and spread the
rice on it, then my daughters check for grain - 7 times.   It's time
consuming, but not so improbable -- many families do this.

Shoshana L. Boublil

>      Marei mekomot: Chatam Sofer OC 122; Sdei Chemed Maarechet
>                     u'Matza 6 # 10; Chayei Adam Klal 127 #6; Maharam
>                     Shick OC 241; Melamed l'Ho'il OC 98; Kaf
>                     453 # 27.
> Josh

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Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:07:09 +0200
From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
Rice for Pesach

On 17 Apr 00, at 1:20, Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:

> I must say that checking rice grain by grain isn't so bad.  Women do
> it regularly <g>.
> Anyway, before Pesah, we take out a white table cloth and spread the
> rice on it, then my daughters check for grain - 7 times.   It's time
> consuming, but not so improbable -- many families do this.

And my wife is always telling me how much more normal things 
look across the hall where our neighbor can give her kids chicken 
and rice for supper during Pesach. Just think if she had to spend 
all that time checking.... I think I will leave this one open for her :-) 

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer

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