Avodah Mailing List

Volume 05 : Number 014

Wednesday, April 12 2000

• The "Children at Risk" issues of the Jewish Observer
• Why do we have to empty our garbage cans before Pesach?
• Re: The "Children at Risk" issues of the Jewish Observer
• JTS and R. Eliezer Silver, ZTL
• Re: names of the 13 Iranian Jews (was "Helping those in Iran")
• Re: names of the 13 Iranian Jews (was "Helping those in Iran")
• Why are beards so significant?
• Re: RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership
• Re: Why are beards so significant?
• Re: RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership
• Re: Why are beards so significant?
• Re: RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership
• Re: Why are beards so significant?
• Re: RSL
• Re: RSL
• Re: RSL
• Re: RSL

Introduction

In an unprecedented series of articles, the November 1999 and March 2000
issues were devoted entirely to the problem of what has been generally
called "Children at Risk", teenagers who drop out of Yeshiva, cease all
Jewish observance, and often spiral into a pattern of drugs and promiscuity.
Having spoken to a local psychologist who specializes in treating "Children
at Risk", the numbers of teens affected today in the NY area exceeds 1000.
Although there is a danger of oversimplifying a very complex issue, I would
like to use this post to buttress the following points:
1) to a significant extent, the problem is a direct result of RW Yeshiva
education 
2) R. Eliyahu Dessler himself suggested that the the "dropout" phenomenon
was a necessary price that must be paid to maintain this type of education.

R. Eliyahu Dessler's Teshuva

In 1951, R. Eliyahu Dessler (Mikhtav Me'Eliyahu, V. 3, pgs 355-60) wrote a
sharply worded teshuva regarding the inadvisability of establishing a
teacher's seminary which would issue academic degrees. Within that teshuva,
he  wrote  the following:

"...the philosophy of Yeshiva education is directed towards one objective
alone, to nurture Gedolei Torah and Yirei Shamayim in tandem. For this
reason university was prohibited to their students, because [the Gedolim]
could not see how to nurture Gedolei Torah unless they directed all
education towards Torah exclusively. However, do not think that they did not
know in advance that through this approach, G-d forbid, many (students) will
be ruined, since they will be unable to survive such an extreme position,
and [therefore] separate from the path of Torah. However, this is the price
that must be paid for [producing] Gedolei Torah."

"Of course, [the Gedolim] must keep watch to do what is possible to maintain
those who cannot be Bnei Torah, but not through means that will influence
those who remain [in Yeshiva]. For example, those who must leave... [should
become] storekeepers or other jobs that are not professional careers, which
require no [educational] preparation and do not attract the [other] students."

R. Shimon Schwab's Response

R. Dessler's philosophy of Yeshiva education was apparently not universally
held. R. Shimon Schwab, in a response to R. Dessler's teshuva, wrote the
following (translated by Dr. Shnayer Leiman in Tradition. Vol. 31, Spring
1997, pgs. 71-77):

"Those remanants of Jewry who, touched by G-d , wish to devote their lives
to the sudy of Torah alone...come under the category of "the tribe of
Levi".... But I worry about all the tribes of Israel...they too are
obligated to study and live by the Torah, making it primary and all else
secondary. The approach of R. Samson Raphael Hirsch enables us to educate
and produce G-d fearing men, and righteous and valiant young women. ...It is
a tried and tested method." ...since R. Samson Raphael Hirsch merited
producing several generations (indeed, over one hundred years) of observant
Jews in Western Europe...all who follow this path walk in a well-trodden
path and drink from a well dug by experts."

It should be mentioned that despite R. Schwab's response, the Torah Im
Derekh Eretz educational approach, has waned, even within Breuer's. The
number of Yeshiva High School graduates learning during the day and going to
Brooklyn College at night, de rigeur at Breuer's approximately 25 hears ago,
is rare today. The degradation of secular studies in RW Yeshivos today is
similarly well known. Over the last few decades, R. Dessler's philosophy has
clearly been ascendant.
 
Passages from The November 1999 Jewish Observer

By far, the most poignant article in this issue was the introductory
"Thoughts of a Mother" who describes in excruciating detail her son's spiral
into drugs and her own responses as she watched it happening (I subsequently
learned that the article was written by the wife of a Rebbe in a RW
Yeshiva). There was an interesting passage in the article that I would like
to highlight:

"My husband still tells him gently that he wants him to be a tzaddik and
true talmid chascham. So now we argue, my husband and I, late at night...I
want him to change what he hopes for our son...Just tell him that you hope
he will be an ehrlicher yid. Please - that would be the right thing to say.
And my husband won't budge. No, he says. But I counter - fighting back tears
- an ehrlicher yid is so much. And my husband just looks at me sadly -
doesn't answer - and continues to tell him how much he hopes he will be a
talmid chacham and a tzaddik."

Perhaps coincidentally, the very next article in the JO is a summary of
excerpts from the Chazon Ish on this issue. He writes the following:

"Chanoch lenaar al pi darko, the Chazon Ish insisted, does not mean to
withhold the possibility of becoming a gadol baTorah from one who seemingly
lacks that capability. We have to ensure that every child has the
opportunity to be that "one out of a thousand" however improbable that seems."

Clearly, the Rebbe in the previous passage has absorbed the Chazon Ish's
message. 

The article continues:

"A talmid who felt he was not cut out for learning [full time] once informed
the Chazon Ish of his plans to master a trade. The gadol hador invited the
young man to learn with him, and they spent a long time together. When they
were finished, the Chazon Ish asked the young man, "Don't you see that you
are capable of learning?"

According to the Chazon Is, the inadmissability of "learning a trade" for
anyone with even a basic ability to learn Torah is a given.

Passages from the March Jewish Observer

Two views apparently conflicting with the Chazon Ish/ R. Dessler appear.
Most significantly, is a brief quote from R. Aharon Leib Shteinman, who
along with R. Elyashiv, has assumed the mantle of gadlus after R. Shach. 

From R. Aharon Leib Shteinman:

"Clearly, there are hundreds of young men today who are not capable of
sitting and learning the entire day, and therefore, there is a need to
create working and learning environments - not yeshivos - from where they
will come out good Jews"

Expanding on this theme, Rabbi Jerucham Shapiro, Administrator of Bais
Yaakov of Boro Park:

"Are we guiding our students who cannot for whatever reason become Roshei
Yeshiva to some vocational studies after reaching the age of twenty, twenty
one, so that he remains a frum balabos who will always be kove'a ittim laTorah?"

It is important not to oversimplify a very complex problem. Article after
article, both in the Jewish Observers as well as in the 1999 Nefesh/Ohel
conference proceedings on children in crisis, emphasize that lack of
self-esteem is a key indicator of children who "go off the derekh". The
possible sources for such a self-perception are numerous, and the lack of
professional options,.or inability to compete on the "gadol track" are
perhaps only contributors to the problem. Yet, when R. Dessler himself
points to the Yeshiva education system as a prime reason for the dropout
phenomenon, we must at the very least take note.

Arnie Lustiger

P.S. It is very important to note that the "moridim Kippa" phenomenon among
the Israeli Modern Orthodox , a phenomenon that I understand afflicts 5-10%
of religious Zionist homes, clearly cannot be included in this rubric -
professional careers and study are encouraged in Israel. In America, Modern
Orthodox parents have more often glorified professional careers at the
expense of striving to be a gadol baTorah.

Hi all,

Forgive me if this is perhaps off-topic, but why do we have to empty our 
garbage cans before Pesach?

Rabbi Blumenkrantz writes that one should not have chometz in their garbage 
cans on Pesach.   For that reason, many communities have arranged special 
garbage pickups on erev-Pesach.  But is this really necessary?

I do not understand why this is.  Even if there is chometz gomur in the 
garbage can, it should not be a problem for any of the following:

- It was sold before Pesach
- It was included in the bittul
- The fact that it is in the garbage can shows that you consider it 
ownerless

Aviva

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

On 12 Apr 00, at 12:47, Arnold Lustiger wrote:

> 1) to a significant extent, the problem is a direct result of RW Yeshiva
> education 

Maybe to a significant extent, but definitely not exclusively (as is 
implicit in the rest of your post). I would not expect JO to deal with 
the problem in MO circles, as MO is not JO's audience.

> P.S. It is very important to note that the "moridim Kippa" phenomenon among
> the Israeli Modern Orthodox , a phenomenon that I understand afflicts 5-10%
> of religious Zionist homes, 

The numbers are much higher than that. A survey done in Israel ten 
years ago showed that one student in five in Yeshiva 
Tichonit/Ulpana would become not fruhm after graduation. If 
anything, the numbers now are only worse.

WE have a problem - not just one segment of us. 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

--- "Daniel B. Schwartz"
<SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET> wrote:
> 
> > "Daniel B. Schwartz" wrote:
> >
> >
> > > is of great importance to thie discussion
> however is ROY's relationship
> with
> > > RSL.  It seems that ROY was machshiv RSL to a
> great degree and actively
> > > sought out dialogue with him.  I reject that ROY
> wasn unaware of JTS's
> "true
> > > nature" 

Although, I agree that ROY probably knew about the
nature of the Conservative movement when he was having
his interaction with RSL, I'm not sure he knew of the
political implications of interacting with an
"official" of the movement.  It wasn't until well
after that time that all the pronouncements forbiding
formal or even informal co-operation with the
Conservative Movement was made.

As one goes further back in the history of the C
movement it becomes less and less clear as to where
they stood religiously.  Indeed the movement was
founded as a reaction to the Reform Movement rather
than as a reaction to Orthodoxy.

In the earliest years of the movement, the Schecther
years, I don't think any one knew where the movement
was going.  

A case in point was related clearly by R. Rakeffet's
excellent bio on R. Eliezer Silver, ZTL (RES).  When
RES was first in this country looking for a position
he actually applied to JTS.  It was only upon meeting
Dr. Schechter himself, noticing that he was bare
headed that he realized that this was not the place
for him.

The C movement has evolved so far away from Orthodoxy
now that it seems incredible that anyone, especially
ROY or RES ever had anything to do with it.  But it
was an evolutionary proccess not a sudden break.  

HM

__________________________________________________
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Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites.
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Request from MBerger:
> If anyone can email me their halachic names,
I would appreciate it. <
From PG Cholim:
Asher ben Shaltnat
Nasser ben Poren
Yaakov ben Mohatram
Farhad ben Hamdam
Shahroch ben Shahnaz
Paramaz ben Aseret
Farzad ben Aseret
Arash ben Zolkah
Negat ben Nosrat
Daniel ben Suryah
Omid ben Suryah
Ramon Farzam
Ramon Namati

Let us pray that the Mattir Asurim will cause their transfer
from shibud to g'ulah bimhairah b'yomainu.

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

On Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 01:26:55PM -0400, MPoppers@kayescholer.com wrote:
: Request from MBerger:
: > If anyone can email me their halachic names,
: I would appreciate it. <
: >From PG Cholim: [names deleted]...

Thanks! I found five of the 5 Hebrew names you gave on the (U) website, on a
page their search engine index didn't have covered yet. They are already on
the web site, to be joined by the 6 more you provide.

Also, both the (U) and the Agudah list the following perakim of tehillim:
130, 121, 20, 120, and 142.

BiNisan nig'alu, ubiNisan asidin lihisga'el,
-mi

For time immemorial, the beard has been valued.  Just one example is where 
the shulchan orcuh writes that a shaliach tzibur for yomin noraim should 
have a zaken (Beard).

But how can we place meaning with something that is a consequence of 
inactivity.  If my beard is longer than your beard, it simply means that 
either I have not shaved for a longer amount of time or my beard simply 
grows quicker.

I just find it odd that given the importance of lefum tzara agra, al 
tisktakel be’kankan, etc., and other klaalim, that the beard has gained such 
prominence.


Aviva

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Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

"Daniel B. Schwartz" wrote:


>     The importance lies in trying to understand the obvious inconsistency.


Forgive me, but the inconsistency is not so obvious to me. RSL has been
described here as a scholar of some note, with amazing beki'ut, and
encyclopedic knowledge, which, I must admit, is all I know of him. Plus
the fact that if R' Ovadiah felt he was worth the time, he probably was.

Yossi Sarid does not have that value.


> At no time has organized Orthodoxy ever expressed anything other than
> contempt bordering on revulsion for organized Conservatism. 


A very basic fact that you seem to have missed is that the Sefardi world
is not divided along the lines you seem to take for granted. Until
*very* recently, mainstream Sefardi thought could not conceive of having
different Batei Kenissiot for people of different levels of religious
observance. 



> Yet, ROY at one time was willing to seek out RSL, go to JTS and speak with
> him.  He did so when he was Chief Rabbi.  He must have realized that such a
> gesture in some way built a bridge between himself, a representative of
> Orthodoxy and CJ.


See above. R' Ovadiah is not and was not a representative of an
"organized Orthodoxy" that doesn't include him. Why do you suppose there
are two Councils of Torah Sages? When was the last time he spoke at an
Agudah convention? I can't recall. 



>  Why then does he adopt a very inconsistent attitude
> towards Sarid?  The obvious answers based upon the relative personalities of
> RSL and Sarid do not fully overcome the problem.  Appearences created by
> people of this magnitude transcend personalities.


I still don't understand what's inconsistent about learning Torah
(that's what folks here said they were doing) with RSL, who, by the
list's admission, knew how to learn on a level most of us aspire to, and
expressing that HKB"H should take care of a rasha on the level of Haman?
How are the two even related?




> > Whose move to the right do you refer to?
> 
> ROY's


When did he move? Thos on the left always called him "right", whether
for religious or political reasons. He hasn't changed.


---sam

On 12 Apr 00, at 11:13, aviva fee wrote:

> But how can we place meaning with something that is a consequence of 
> inactivity.  If my beard is longer than your beard, it simply means that 
> either I have not shaved for a longer amount of time or my beard simply 
> grows quicker.

A Chabadnik once claimed to me that the beard reflects one's 
hadras panim. I don't have a source for that.

-- Carl (bearded for a long time now, but usually neatly trimmed)


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

----- Original Message -----
From: Sammy Ominsky <sambo@charm.net>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership


> "Daniel B. Schwartz" wrote:
>
>
> >     The importance lies in trying to understand the obvious
inconsistency.
>
>
> Forgive me, but the inconsistency is not so obvious to me. RSL has been
> described here as a scholar of some note, with amazing beki'ut, and
> encyclopedic knowledge, which, I must admit, is all I know of him. Plus
> the fact that if R' Ovadiah felt he was worth the time, he probably was.

    On an individual level he most certain was worthe the time.  I'm sure it
behooved ROY tremendously to have met with RSL.  But what of the appearence?

>
> Yossi Sarid does not have that value.
>
>
> > At no time has organized Orthodoxy ever expressed anything other than
> > contempt bordering on revulsion for organized Conservatism.
>
>
> A very basic fact that you seem to have missed is that the Sefardi world
> is not divided along the lines you seem to take for granted.

    Considreing that ROY did not ever live in a vacume, that he spent
ocnsiderable time studying among Ashkenazim (IIRC Rav Duschinsky was his
rebbe for a period), and that he certainly encountered issues that exist
historically among Ashkenazim, I find that suggestion to be untenable.  I
simply don't belive it.  I do believe that ROY very correctly recognized RSL
to be the brilliant scholar he was, and wanted to meet him out of respect
for him.  I think that ROY chose to ignore the controversy surrounding JTS
and went there to meet this most illustrious figure.  That is what raises an
inconsistency in my mind.  Does anyone believe that ROY thinks Sarid is more
abhorent than Conservative Judaism?  Is there proof for that position?

On Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 11:13:57AM -0700, aviva fee wrote:
: But how can we place meaning with something that is a consequence of 
: inactivity.  If my beard is longer than your beard, it simply means that 
: either I have not shaved for a longer amount of time or my beard simply 
: grows quicker.

This sounded really strange coming from an "Aviva". ("If my beard is
longer...")

As someone who can't physically grow a full beard (read: as a nogei'ah
bidavar), I assume that people who have longer beards due to genetics
don't count.

I'm missing the question, though. It would seem that your question would
apply to any lav -- why did you ask about a beard and not peiyos, or not
stealing? There's no act in any shave vi'al ta'aseh. <groan>

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 12-Apr-00: Revi'i, Metzora
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 23b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 25

On Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 03:15:12PM -0400, Daniel B. Schwartz wrote:
:>>     The importance lies in trying to understand the obvious inconsistency.

:     On an individual level he most certain was worthe the time.  I'm sure it
: behooved ROY tremendously to have met with RSL.  But what of the appearence?

It would seem that contrary to your earlier email, he is being very consistent.
In both cases he is paying more attention to the message than the impression
left by how he conveyed it.

:                            Does anyone believe that ROY thinks Sarid is more
: abhorent than Conservative Judaism?  Is there proof for that position?

I do. And the fact that he spoke out against one and not the other is proof.

I also personally think that Sarid is more abhorent. JTSA broke from adas
Yisrael by denying the eidus of ma'amud Har Sinai. Sarid not only isn't in
Adas Yisrael, he has no faith in Am Yisrael either. Post-Zionism is the
ugliest neveilah our people have ever come up with. Al eileh ani bochiyah.

-mi

PS: Could someone in Chicago who has R' Aharon's ear please relay for me the
following question (as stated):
    What do we do now that even the watch-fob is unimportant to them?

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 12-Apr-00: Revi'i, Metzora
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 23b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 25

Beards in Kabbla represent middas ha'rachamim. hair of the head middas
ha'din. You can understand several of the kabbalistic attitudes towards both
forms of hair, and the distinct masculine and feminine attributes based on
that dichotomy.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: aviva fee <aviva613@hotmail.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 1:13 PM
Subject: Why are beards so significant?


> For time immemorial, the beard has been valued.  Just one example is where
> the shulchan orcuh writes that a shaliach tzibur for yomin noraim should
> have a zaken (Beard).
>
> But how can we place meaning with something that is a consequence of
> inactivity.  If my beard is longer than your beard, it simply means that
> either I have not shaved for a longer amount of time or my beard simply
> grows quicker.
>
> I just find it odd that given the importance of lefum tzara agra, al
> tisktakel be'kankan, etc., and other klaalim, that the beard has gained
such
> prominence.

The following is an excerpt from the Tradition Renewed, a history of JTS.  I
took this from theie Web Site, so I assume it is "official"  CJ material

Finkelstein's administrative team was strengthened by one other individual,
Saul Lieberman, who in the late 1950's and throughout the 1960's came to
exercise significant influence on the conduct of the administration,
particularly on the academic side. He came to the Seminary from Palestine in
1940. An outstanding Talmudic scholar, he would in time fill the void left
by the death of Louis Ginsberg in 1953. Lieberman held the title of Dean of
the Rabbinical School in 1948 but with his assumption of the post of Rector
in 1958, his influence in the academic and religious affairs of the Seminary
grew significantly. Virtually any decision regarding academic or religious
matters had to be cleared with him or it could not be implemented.
Finkelstein knew that he and Lieberman shared similar intellectual and
religious values and that he could, therefore, rely on him to share some of
the administrative burden. Finkelstein saw Lieberman as the embodiment of
all that the Seminary stood for as an academy of Jewish learning. He once
remarked that the purpose of much of his external affairs work was to raise
the necessary funds to enable Lieberman to concentrate on his research and
learning.94

It seems than that RSL was hardly at JTS to lend it prestige, but was a
major force in shaping CJ


----- Original Message -----
From: <Gil.Student@citicorp.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>; <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>;
<SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: RSL


> I solicited the opinion of R. Eli Clark, a former Avodah subscriber, who
> generally has knowledgeable opinions on these matters.  The following is a
> private e-mail he sent me (posted with permission) about how RS Lieberman
fit
> into the Conservative movement:

On Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 04:00:57PM -0400, Daniel B. Schwartz wrote:
: The following is an excerpt from the Tradition Renewed, a history of JTS....

This tangent has gone WAY afield from Avodas Hashem.

For that matter, the parent discussion, that of whether or not we have a
right to condemn R' Ovadia seems to have completed a couple of circles lately.
New material only, and only on the actual Avodah issues please. Those who
desired to distance themselves from R' Ovadia's statements have aleady done
so.

-mi

"Daniel B. Schwartz" wrote:

> The following is an excerpt from the Tradition Renewed, a history of JTS.  I
> took this from theie Web Site, so I assume it is "official"  CJ material
>
> Finkelstein's administrative team was strengthened by one other individual,
> Saul Lieberman, who in the late 1950's and throughout the 1960's came to
> exercise significant influence on the conduct of the administration,
> particularly on the academic side.

Do yoou believe everything you read? all the PR put out by JTS? did you expect
them not to put RSL's position in the best light? After all they had noone like
him before or after.
Chag Kasher V'someach
steve

To put it delicately, the paragraph is hogwash.

For those still offended by that relatively mild term, we can use "self
serving drivel".

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel B. Schwartz <SCHWARTZESQ@worldnet.att.net>
To: <Gil.Student@citicorp.com>; <avodah@aishdas.org>;
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: RSL


> The following is an excerpt from the Tradition Renewed, a history of JTS.
I
> took this from theie Web Site, so I assume it is "official"  CJ material
>
> Finkelstein's administrative team was strengthened by one other
individual,
> Saul Lieberman, who in the late 1950's and throughout the 1960's came to
> exercise significant influence on the conduct of the administration,
> particularly on the academic side. He came to the Seminary from Palestine
in
> 1940. An outstanding Talmudic scholar, he would in time fill the void left
> by the death of Louis Ginsberg in 1953. Lieberman held the title of Dean
of
> the Rabbinical School in 1948 but with his assumption of the post of
Rector
> in 1958, his influence in the academic and religious affairs of the
Seminary
> grew significantly. Virtually any decision regarding academic or religious
> matters had to be cleared with him or it could not be implemented.
> Finkelstein knew that he and Lieberman shared similar intellectual and
> religious values and that he could, therefore, rely on him to share some
of
> the administrative burden. Finkelstein saw Lieberman as the embodiment of
> all that the Seminary stood for as an academy of Jewish learning. He once
> remarked that the purpose of much of his external affairs work was to
raise
> the necessary funds to enable Lieberman to concentrate on his research and
> learning.94
>

********************


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