Avodah Mailing List

Volume 05 : Number 005

Saturday, April 8 2000

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:01:49 -0400
From: remt@juno.com
re:hanach lahem l'yisrael

Re the story cited by Carl Sherer of the mikveh lady's husband who would
say mazel tov to the husband on the morning after his wife's t'vilah, the
story is in Maimon's Sarei HaMeah.  In his version, it was the minhag in
Cracow. When the Ramo became Rav, he stopped it on grounds of tznius. A
few days later, when a husband criticized the man for failing to say
mz"t, the response was that (a) the Rav ended the minhag and (b) his wife
had not come to the mikveh. When the Ramo heard of it, he reinstituted
the minhag, saying, "Stiras z'keinim binyan, uvinyan n'arim stirah."

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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 18:21:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jonathan Schwartz <jschwrtz@ymail.yu.edu>
RYBS comparing irreligious Jews to Esav

> Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:12:23 EDT
> From: Tobrr111@aol.com

> virtually every single year at the Mizrachi convention compared irreligious 
> Israelis leaders to Esav, Pharoa, Amolek etc.. This is a historical fact. So 
> ROY is doing nothing the RAV didn't do.

I am a bit lost as to your sources for the "so called error" on Harav
Blau's part. After reading your assertions that Rabbi Blau's comments were
not vintage "Rov" who made comparisons of irreligious Jews to Pharoh, and
Esav, I rushed to check my copy of 5 Derashos all of which were presented
to the Mizrachi. While the Rov notes that "Arab bullet and the Arab knife
didn't distinguish between the Hebron Yeshiva students and  leftwing
kibbutzniks" (p. 22) and that "the alter of cone, traverse the land does
not relate exclusively to us religious Jews. All Jews who took part in
building the land, erected it. (p. 23). He notes that the Rov broke with
his family and joined the Mizrachi simply because of his view that secular
Jews are employed "as instruments to bring to fruition His great plans
regarding the land of Israel."(p. 36) none of these comments seem to
support this assertion of the Rov's comparison of Secular Jewry to Esav

	While the Rov ztl. does note the need to have Torah and Ruchnius
as the core of a true Eretz Yisroel and that the secular Jews who fight
this idea will not rise to the alter of the Akeida fully, I am yet to find
the comparisons that you assert. 

	While not judging HaGaon Harav Ovadiah Yosef's comments, their
comparisons to those of the Rov ztl. deserve a reminder :
"Let us speak openly. Some people claim that there is religious
persecution in Israel. No, this is false. A government that supports
religiuos schools, that has brought Kasruth into the army, that has
empowered Rabbinic courts to decide family law and so on, can on no
account be considered as a persecutor of religion. This charge is to be
thrust aside by any right-thinking person...What disturbs us? The answer
plain. The official ideology of the secular parties refuses to recognize
the second side of the river and seeks to establish the ideal of the State
as the highest good before which all, even as it were, the God of Israel
must bend the knee." (The Rov Speaks, p. 118).


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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 23:48:28 +0200 (IST)
From: Shaul Wallach <wallach@mail.biu.ac.il>
Re: Charedi Chiloni, and Dati, United or Divided?

Harry Maryles writes:

> Isn't it often the case that the Dati community sides
> with the Chiloni community (and therefore against the
> Charedi community) on various issues? 

     I find myself somewhat pressed to find good examples. That of 
military service is no longer valid, since many Haredim now serve 
in the Israeli army - the number enlisting in the Nahal Haredi is
growing, with the blessing of some Gedolim. Perhaps the Dati support
of the Heter Mekhira for the Shemitta year might be cited, but this
also is not clear cut since R. Ovadia Yosef approves of the Heter, 
so we cannot say that the Haredim are united in opposing it. 

> Certainly the lifestyle of a Dati has a lot more in
> common with the Chilonim than the Charedim except for
> the Halachic parts of his life. 

     On the contrary, I see the Datiim in Israel going more in the 
direction of the Haredim in recent years and the Haredim becoming more
influenced by secular values. For example, the fact that Haredi
Rabbanim object so strongly to the use of video, CDROM's and Internet 
shows how much they have penetrated into the Haredi world.

> For example the Dati has a similar work ethic as does
> the Chiloni.

     But the Haredim are working too. With the blessing of some
well known Rabbanim, the Haredim now have very popular evening schools
for occupational training. And I see more Haredim here at Bar-Ilan in
recent years, too.

>              He has generally served in the Military
> (at least in Hesder). 

     Besides the Nahal Haredi, Haredim also do more or less regular 
army service. The Tal Commission, on which Benei Beraq mayor R. 
Mordechai Karelitz has served, just finished its work and is
recommending that military service options be given to all Haredi men 
wishing to enter the work force after the age of 25. Both Rabbi
Elyoshiv and Rabbi Steinman have endorsed these recommendations.

>                       He will dress about the same as
> the Chiloni the only difference being the Kipa,

     The number of Dati men growing beards and displaying the Sisiot
of the Tallit Qatan has increased greatly in recent years. So has the
number of Dati women dressing modestly with a bona fide hair covering
(hat or scarf), in contrast to the wig customary among the Haredi
women which is now being discouraged by leading Haredi Rabbanim.

>                          ... Both the Dati and the
> Chiloni send their children to Mamlachti schools
> (Mamlachti Dati schools for the Dati). 

     But these are worlds apart. And the Datiim also have their high 
school Yeshivot for boys and Ulpanot for girls. These have both become
very popular in recent years.

>                           ... And, his observance of
> Mitzvos is on entirely different level than that of
> the Dati. 

     I think many Datiim would object to this. Here at Bar-Ilan I see
the Dati religious observance approaching and even surpassing that of
the Haredim in some areas. I have already mentioned beards for men and
hair covering for women as examples. And here at Bar-Ilan, the
Minyanim for Minha are complete with Hazara and Tahanun. On the Yamim
ha-Nora'im, I see Dati men wearing the Kittel at the Machon ha-Gavoah 
> So even if there is a commonality of purpose in trying
> to establish a Torah society, aren't the visions of 
> what a Torah society should be drasticly different?

     No. If anything, I see them rapidly converging towards each other 
and both diverging from the secular, assimilationist vision.

Shaul Wallach

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