Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 458

Wednesday, March 22 2000

• Re: ve-laharog
• Re: Takanos Redux
• Re: Takanos Redux
• Re: Takanos Redux
• RE: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to atleastthe same s...
• Blame, etc.
• Pope and holocaust
• Lack of Response
• Re: Lack of Response
• Jennings and Eisner
• Re[2]: how can we condemn etc.
• Re[2]: Takanos Redux
• How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at least the same standard
• Re[2]: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to
• Re: Bnai Torah and Parshat Zakhor
• Chareidi Press
• Re: how can we condemn etc.
• Re[2]: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to
• ve-laharog bifneihme etc.
• Re: Avodah V4 #456
• Re[2]: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to
• Re: how can we condemn etc.
• Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at least the same standard

Since there will IY"H be a Purim next year,I assume there is still interest.
thanks.


Micha Berger wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 02:21:48PM -0500, Ari Z. Zivotofsky wrote:
> : can you post your dvar torah?
>
> As I didn't see your request until Shushan Purim I'm not sure there's interest
> anymore. But in the interest of vanity, here it is.
>
> -mi
>
> --
> Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 20-Mar-00: Levi, Tzav
> micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H
> http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 12a
> For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
>
> Rava said, "A person is obligated to get drunk on Purim until he does not
> know between 'cursed is Haman' and 'blessed is Mordechai.'" - Tr. Megillah 7a

In a message dated 3/22/00 9:28:37 AM US Central Standard Time, 
gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:

<< My point is that not being aware of the fine points of Thoreau's
 philosophy is not how the Torah defines dumb.  The Torah's definition
 should be fine for us. >>

No, Torah doesn't require us to know anything about Thoreau. But Torah also 
doesn't permit us defiantly to equate Thoreau with Eldridge Cleaver on 
grounds that a Goy is Goy. Torah doesn't consider such sentiments to be 
particularly smart -- or particularly halachic, either. Torah permits us to 
turn our attention to some subjects (i.e., the study of the wonders of 
HaShem) in lieu of other subjects. It does not, however, permit us to make 
embarrassingly uninformed pronouncements on subjects about which we've chosen 
to remain ignorant, on the theory that nothing a Jew says about the Goyishe 
Velt can be held against him.

David Finch

In a message dated 3/22/00 11:19:15 AM US Central Standard Time, 
TROMBAEDU@aol.com writes:

<< I take my marching orders from Ward Cleaver.
 
 Shushan Purim Samayach
  >>

Yes, Mr. Cleaver. That's a very nice tie you're wearing today! Can I help 
Mrs. Cleaver bring in the groceries?

Eddie Haskell

In a message dated 3/22/00 12:39:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
DFinchPC@aol.com writes:

<< Yes, Mr. Cleaver. That's a very nice tie you're wearing today! Can I help 
 Mrs. Cleaver bring in the groceries?
 
 Eddie Haskell >>

Just so long as we are keeping things in perspective.

Jordan

> Farkert, I don't remember who I heard it from but he pointed out that:
> Italian- American
> African-American
> Polish-American

Exactly my point -- these ethnic groups *maintain* their ethnic
heritage/pride

> American Jew

"American" comes first.

Akiva

A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

fwiw As soon as I saw that artificially sweetened soda's prices rose to the same
level as the sugared variety, I immediately realized that this was nothing but a
scam.

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
 The sugar shortages during that time were coincidentally, but, artificially 
created by Amstar, to make more money, but, once again, Jews were blamed for 
goyim having to pay more for their XMAS cookies. 
Barry Schwarz

In a message dated 3/22/00 12:42:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, Aviva Fee 
writes:

<< Funny, I think Pope Pius said the same thing.  I am the father of a 
billion 
 Catholics.  Way too busy to help some Jews.
 
 Carl, be careful what you wish for.
  >>
Aviva still has not responded to the most basic difference between the two 
situations. The Pope and church did not only sit back and not help, they were 
actively part of the problem. Priests all over preached Jew hatred. Therefore 
the Pope had a moral obligation to speak out. In other cases Jews may not be 
part of the solution, but they are hardly ever part of the problem. 
Therefore, is it not clear that the two situations are not remotely analogous?

Another difference is the fact that the Pope had it in his power 
single-handedly and directly to make a difference. Jews today while they may 
be able to make somewhat of a difference, have nowhere near the same clout. 
Is this not also a basic difference between the two situations?

Aviva, you may be right that we should speak out, but wouldn't you agree that 
the comparison is unfair?

TR

My mother in sick in a hospital in NY (complications from surgery), so I
am flying in soon to NY, where I may not have e-mail access for some time.
Please, therefore, excuse my absence from virtual communications for the
next few days.

My mother's name is Shulamis bas Sarah Sasha.

Thanks, and may we hear besuros tovos, 

KT,
YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

In a message dated 3/22/00 1:03:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

> My mother's name is Shulamis bas Sarah Sasha.

May HKB"H send her a Refua Shleima BToch SHaar CHolei Yisroel

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

reductio ad absurdum - in the spirit of Shushan Purim...

Does this imply that Jews are SO powerful they even control the anti-semites?! 
<ha ha>

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #456 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    3/22/2000 11:59 AM


In a message dated 3/22/00 9:03:16 AM Central Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< And anyone watching Peter Jennings realizes that Jews do not control the 
media -
 as far as I'm concerned.

.... and, who do you think pays Mr. Jennings' salary? None other than 
Michael Eisner, Chairman of Disney / Capital Cities, who wholly owns ABC TV!

I was taught the following:

We are supposed to give a yasher koach to kohanim even though they are mechuyav 
to bench us. 

As I understand it, we are to acknowledge with apprecation for the positive 
outcome regardless of the underlying motives...

richard_wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: re:how can we condemn etc. 

As for Roosevelt, if he is considered to have "helped Jews" by virtue of his 
conducting war on behalf of the US and its allies, 
Sadya N. Targum

Mr. Cleaver to Eddie: let's wait for June!

-Wally


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Takanos Redux 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    3/22/2000 12:37 PM


In a message dated 3/22/00 11:19:15 AM US Central Standard Time, 
TROMBAEDU@aol.com writes:

<< I take my marching orders from Ward Cleaver.

 Shushan Purim Samayach
  >>

Yes, Mr. Cleaver. That's a very nice tie you're wearing today! Can I help 
Mrs. Cleaver bring in the groceries?

Eddie Haskell

Carl wrote:

>>>
>I think the church did a lot more than just shev v'al taaseh. Nazi
>Germany relied specifically on church doctrine.
>
>Moreover, the Jews were right under the Pope's nose. The pope is
>in Italy, which was part of the Axis. If the Pope had spoken out,
>Italy could have become a safe haven for the Jews. Instead, the
>Jews in Italy suffered the same fate as the Jews in other countries.
><<

Aviva wrote:

>Your description of the facts are fine, but my point is thus…..
>
>Your repeatedly state reasons why the Pope should have done more, while 
>simultaneously stating that the Jews are powerless and stating “I am going 
>to worry about them before I worry about Sudan or Afghanistan or Bosnia or 
>anyplace else, which is not my people and where my potential impact is 
>minimal”.  You can not have it both ways.  If we tyna that the Pope should 
>do more, then we as a nation, no matter how powerless must do our 
>hishtadlus.  If not, we are all hypocrites.
>
>Your posts are seemingly full of chutzpah.  We want the Pope to save us yet 
>we are too busy in our own neighborhoods to help anyone else.

Aviva,

I'm afraid you're deeply mistaken.  Jewish organizations indeed _do_ help
in all those places.  Do you recall aid to children in Chernobyl?
Airlifting out children in Bosnia?  

We can start with the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee, which
is also supported by UJA/Federation.  Go to there web site (www.ajd.org),
and you can read about:

- how the group was first on the scene helping with the Earthquake in Turkey

- how they founded the Jewish Coalition for Rwanda Relief

- JDC Venezuela Flood Relief 

- caring for the elderly in Eastern Europe and other formerly Communist
countries

- JDC established one of the few winterized refugee camps in Albania

- JDC re-opened an elementary school in Kosovo, and the founding of the
Jewish Coalition for Kosovo Relief

- founded the JDC/IRC (International Rescue Committee) Community Health
Project in Macedonia

- founded the Jewish Coalition for Hurricane Mitch Relief to help in
Central America

I could go on, but I think you get my point.

Further, this is just _one_ Jewish organization.  There are plenty of
others (ORT, etc) that also help all over the world.

So.  

Now that we've established that Jews _do_ help all over the world, is it
too much to have asked Pope Pius to, just once, during one Sunday sermon,
to have mentioned that the slaughtering of people based on the sole reason
of their religion was un-Christian-like?

-- Eric

venahapoch hu

Italian is an adjective the noun the IDENTITY is American

An American Jew is a JEW who is modified by being an American

Like:
Sefardic   JEW
Russian    JEW
Ashkenazic JEW
Tall       JEW
Short      JEW

etc.

Italian-American is like
Italian Car 
Italian Pizza
Italian Shoes

Get it?

-Wally Cleaver



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RE: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    3/22/2000 12:46 PM


> Farkert, I don't remember who I heard it from but he pointed out that: 
> Italian- American
> African-American
> Polish-American

Exactly my point -- these ethnic groups *maintain* their ethnic 
heritage/pride

> American Jew

"American" comes first.

Akiva

A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

At the risk of reopening the whole issue of army service, I couldn't
resist commenting of Prof. Frimer's post:

> A few days ago, Eli Turkel posted what he believed to be Purim Torah,
> namely that Bnai Torah were Patur from Parshat Zakhor (and hence can't
> be motsi the tsibbur) because they are freed from army service. 
> 	My brother Dov pointed out that this is not as "Purimy" as it would
> seem. HaRav Shlomo HaKohen (author of the Heshek Shlomo on Shas) raises
> this very svara with regards to Kohanim. It is found in his Shu"t Binyan
> Shelomo, Maftehot to siman 37 (it's an addition to the teshuvah which
> appears in the Maftehot). I assume that the leap from Shevet levi to
> bnai torah (based on the Rambam) is known to all...

Perhaps known to all, but not agreed on by all. Rabbi Yosef Qafih, on
the Rambam (Shemita we-Yovel 13:13) objects to this "leap", saying it
has no halakhic significance because the Rambam here is not laying down
a halakha at all, but rather giving a Derash on the value of sanctifying
oneself by learning Torah and serving G-d. Note his language "kol ba'ei
`olam" which includes non-Jews as well. The exemption from army
service comes from elsewhere we-ein kan maqom le-ha'arikh...

Just as a footnote, others have also remarked that from time to time
the Rambam gives expression to his feelings which are usually quite 
concealed (another example is his Derash on Shalom Bayit at the end of
Hilkot Hanukka). Rabbi Meir Mazuz (Rosh Yeshivat Kisse Rahamim in
Benei Beraq) once wrote on the interesting interplay between
rationality and emotion in the Torah, but unfortunately I don't have
his article at the moment.

Shaul Wallach

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Shalom

I search for Chareidi press (weekly or mensually) in English or Hebrew - =
in France we have nothing.

I knew alos     - Yated Neeman
                           - Hamodia
                        - Jewish Observer

Could you send me bach the name, phone et fax nulbers ?=20

Thank you

Shlomo Ouaknien, Paris - FRANCE

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Shalom</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>I search for Chareidi press (weekly or =
mensually) in=20
English or Hebrew - in France we have nothing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>I knew alos &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - Yated =
Neeman</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
face=3DArial>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
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Hamodia</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - Jewish=20
Observer</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Could you send me bach the name, phone et fax =
nulbers ?=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Thank you</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Shlomo Ouaknien, Paris - =
FRANCE</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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How does this jive with her honorary degree from YU?
Best wishes for a froelichen shushan purim
steve

Harry Maryles wrote:

> --- DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > Roosevelt(His wife, however,
> > occasionally exploded in
> > anti-Jewish invective in private conversation and
> > correspondence throughout
> > her life.)
>
> This is a complete and total shock to me. I have
> always believed that Eleanor Roosevelt was one of the
> most altruistic people in American history. And I
> thought that there was virtually universal acceptance
> of that view. Do you have any proof of this
> "anti-Jewish invective"?
>
> HM
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com

What about the other reality, i.e. that Jews control the world? <smile>

-Wally Cleaver



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at


No, we are not. We are acknowledging reality. We are a small nation that has 
been persecuted throughout the ages. No one of us has the individual wherewithal
to make an impact on a large number of people. 

fwiw
My old Encyclopedia leKor'im by Sharfstein/KTAV has the printed text with 
nekuddos one way and the *Tikkun* text the other way, for BOTH 
lifneihm/bifneihem and laharog/v'laharog.  I just noticed this Monday night when
doing last mintue cramming for the laining.

This seems to *hint*  - w/o actually stating it al pi mesorah - that there is a 
form of ksiv/krei involved here.  Or perhaps Sharfstein was just covering both 
ways; one on one side and one on the other...

-Wally Cleaver


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: ve-laharog 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    3/19/2000 4:39 PM


R'H Ainspan requested data on the repetition of le-hashmid ve-laharog/laharog as
well as lifneihem/bifneihem, stating that, "There's no k'ri/k'siv there, just v'
laharog and 
lifneihem.


"Burim Sameach".

David

Why does anyone think debating who controls the media has anything to do with
advancing one's Avodas Hashem?

-mi

I read recently that once upon a time armed Jews killed 75,000 enemies in one 
day! <smile>

-Wally Cleaver 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

There's a fundamental difference. We as a people have never 
(AFAIK) carried out a pogrom against anyone. The Church called 
for the Crusades. Most of the pogroms against Jews that have been 
carried out since then have been carried out in the name of the 
Church in one form or another.

-- Carl

In a message dated 3/22/00 12:28:27 PM US Central Standard Time, 
katzco@sprintmail.com writes:

<< How does this jive with her honorary degree from YU?
 Best wishes for a froelichen shushan purim >>

It jives plenty, as in "all the jive" or "don't give me that jive" or "you're 
full of jive."

David Finch

AF wrote (V4#457)
"Funny, I think Pope Pius said the same thing.  I am the father of a billion 
Catholics.  Way too busy to help some Jews."

No. Part of his responsibility is to see that his "children" act morally.
That being the case shouldn't he speak out against such acts regardless 
of who they are commited against? 

kol tuv
Sender Baruch

*********************


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