Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 422

Wednesday, March 8 2000

• Article on Ruth Blau z"l
• Re: Bombing those railroad tracks
• Re[4]: Livin' in the USA
• Re: Bombing those railroad tracks
• Re[2]: Bombing those railroad tracks
• Yissachor-Zevulun Learning Arrangement
• Re[2]: Dat U'Medina
• Re: Re[4]: Livin' in the USA
• Re: Re[4]: Livin' in the USA
• Re: Re[2]: Dat U'Medina
• Re[6]: Livin' in the USA
• Re[4]: Dat U'Medina
• Re[6]: Livin' in the USA
• RE: Dat U'Medina
• Status of Galus (was Re: Re[4]: Dat U'Medina)
• Are Krispy Kreme donuts kosher? {OFF TOPIC}
• Hanetz/netz-humor alert
• For those who missed it
• Re: Avodah V4 #415

There was a fascinating article on Ruth Blau z"l, the widow of R. 
Amram Blau z"l of Neturei Karta, in this past Friday's Post 
Magazine. The article has now been reproduced on the web site. 
You can find it at:
 
http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2000/03/05/Features/Features.3576.
html

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

In a message dated 3/8/00 7:38:31 AM US Central Standard Time, 
mechyfrankel@zdnetonebox.com writes:

<< when military leaders like eisenhower made the kind of decisions that
 he did, he at least was aware of such facts. (not that i don't wish that
 he'd tried.  my own grandparents a"h might not have perished when they
 did if the allies had gotten lucky.  but no one should think that it
 was a simple matter of the military leadership - or somehow the state
 dept - deciding not to do something that they could easily have done
 if only they had different priorities).
  >>

Mechy Frankel's analysis of the tactical realities of the air war over Europe 
sums up the best counterargument against complaints that the Allies didn't do 
enough to shut down the concentration camps by air strikes before actually 
conquering the adjoining territory.

I think Mechy's analysis makes sense. Precision nighttime bombing techniques 
weren't developed until after the Korean War. By the time Vietnam rolled 
around, pilots could (and did) hit small targets at low and medium altitude 
*if* Vietcong or NVA air defenses weren't deeply in place. But where the air 
defenses were strong, such as Khe Sanh, not even the small, sophisticated 
bomb-equipped fighters of that era could find a safe target. American 
soldiers and marines, like the Jews in the camps 25 years earlier, were 
stranded. 

The Germans had heavy anti-aircraft emplacements all around most of the 
camps. And as is well known, toward the end the Germans cared more about 
keeping the camps in operation than they did about protecting their own 
secondary military positions.

Another point: As the European war was winding down, Roosevelt and Marshall 
remained deeply fearful of what they'd have to do next in the Pacific. 
Surviving American aircrews that were worn to the bone after flying 20 or 30 
missions over Germany were slated for duty in what most feared would be an 
extraordinarily brutal fight over the island of Japan. American Marines were 
getting slaughtered as they picked their way atoll by atoll toward the 
Japanese mainland, and the Japanese, unlike the Germans, really were prepared 
to fight to the finish. Even those who knew about it were skeptical in 1944 
and early 1945 that the atom bomb would be sufficiently developed as an 
invasion substitute. So American air resources were expended very carefully. 

Roosevelt was a sick old man at this point -- his death really would be a 
casualty of the war -- and he just wanted to get it over with. So did 
everyone else who'd been fighting it. The very least we owe them is enough 
humility to withhold hostile judgment such as charges of anti-Semitism and 
the like.

David Finch

The comparisoin is: "Isn't the eventual demise of the baby Gavriel Moshe halevy 
as inevitable as the advent of the Moshiach?"

Isn't there an aggedito on this very same story line?  I'm Sure RYGB of R 
Yizchok Zirkind will know the daf

Richrad_wolpoe@ibi.com 
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Livin' in the USA  
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    3/8/2000 12:51 AM


On 7 Mar 00, at 20:59, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> And when I attend the bris tomorrow BEH of my firen's son, I will start mourni
ng
> that someday this baby too will die?  So we might as well gloss over th simcha
> and get to the tachlis immediately, let's all feel bad NOW for the impending 
> doom?

I'm not sure I get this. You regard Mashiach coming as impending 
doom? 

-- Carl

> 
> ______________________________ Reply Separator _______________________________
__
> 
> I'll go a step further. To me, the problem is that too many Jews, 
> even fruhm Jews (especially in America) think America IS home. If 
> Mashiach came tomorrow, one of the biggest problems he would 
> face is convincing them that they should come NOW, and not wait 
> for them to close down their businesses, sell off their houses, or 
> worse. Not directed at this specific poster - just a general comment. 
> 
> -- Carl
> 
> 
> 


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son, 
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel. 
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 8 Mar 00, at 10:21, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> I think Mechy's analysis makes sense. 

I suppose it does. I don't hold myself out as a military history 
expert.

The very least we owe them
> is enough humility to withhold hostile judgment such as charges of
> anti-Semitism and the like.

Given the immigration quotas that were instituted and enforced in 
the US in the 40's and what we now know that they knew during 
the war? No way. As far as I am concerned, that puts it right back 
on Roosevelt's and the State Department's doorstep.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

I agree with Mechy {there goes the netiquette! <smile} andI ahd drafted 
something seimliar but not nearly as articulate.

Remeber that Ike, FDR and Churchill all {optomistically} thought the war would 
be over by XMAS 1944.  The Battle of the Bulge had something to do with delaying
that ETA.

In hindsight, bombing the RR tracks would have saved lives, but at that time the
trade-offs were not so clear-cut.

As far as ths state dep't anti-Semitism goes, one should distinguish between the
country club anti-Semite and the virulent European Anti-semite.  Selznick's 
Movie Gentleman's Agreement (circa 1948) is a portrait of the coutnry-club 
variety and one scene makes clear the dsitinction between the 2 (ayein shom) 
<smile>

richard_wolpoe@ibi.com.




______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Bombing those railroad tracks 

Mechy Frankel's analysis of the tactical realities of the air war over Europe 
sums up the best counterargument against complaints that the Allies didn't do 
enough to shut down the concentration camps by air strikes before actually 
conquering the adjoining territory.

I think Mechy's analysis makes sense. 
David Finch

I heard several years ago from a talmid chochom that Yissochor does not
lose or give up half of his schar in exchange for Zevulun's financial
support but rather that they both enter Yissachar's portion of olam
haboh.  Does anyone know of a mkor for this?  Thanks

Avrohom Weidberg

w/o debating mitzvas yishuv ho'oretz...

The pre-supposition here is that EY w/o a beis hamikdash is considered 
non-galus.  This pre-suipposition is debatable.  There is not doubt in the time 
of a BhM that EY would not be conidered golus, but until that time arrives the 
status is not so clear cut.

Furthermore one might recall that during bayis sheini, most Jews remained in 
Bavel for at least most of that era; and  I would venture to say that the USA 
today is highly parallel to the Bavel of the Bayis Sheini era. {Even the name 
Bavel suggests a melting pot of cultures simliar to the USA.}

re: bzeias apecha, didn't the Rambam telle us to exercize before eating based 
upon this possuk? <smile>

richard_wolpoe@ibi.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Dat U'Medina 




Even if it were true that giving money to tzedaka is "k'neged kulam" *earning* 
the money would at best be a machsirei mitzva and not the mitzva itself. Staying
in golus to spend more time doing a macshir mitzva doesn't strike me as correct.
At the least, I think it requires a cheshbon hanefesh and a she'elas chacham. 
Keep in mind also something I wrote on mail jewish a while back - "b'zeas apecha
tochal lechem" is not a mitzva, it's a punishment.
-- Carl

On 8 Mar 00, at 10:41, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> The comparisoin is: "Isn't the eventual demise of the baby Gavriel
> Moshe halevy as inevitable as the advent of the Moshiach?"

I think you missed my original point. My original point was not that 
R"L there is a holocaust coming to America. It was that American 
Jewry is so wrapped up with their lives and wealth in the galus that 
even if Mashiach came tomorrow (Halevay!) American Jewry 
wouldn't be able to make up its collective mind to leave.

-- Carl

> ______________________________ Reply Separator
> _________________________________ Subject: Re: Re[2]: Livin' in the
> USA  Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate Date:    3/8/2000 12:51
> AM
> 
> 
> On 7 Mar 00, at 20:59, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
> 
> > And when I attend the bris tomorrow BEH of my firen's son, I will
> > start mourni
> ng
> > that someday this baby too will die?  So we might as well gloss over
> > th simcha and get to the tachlis immediately, let's all feel bad NOW
> > for the impending doom?
> 
> I'm not sure I get this. You regard Mashiach coming as impending doom?
> 
> 
> -- Carl
> 
> > 
> > ______________________________ Reply Separator
> > _______________________________
> __
> > 
> > I'll go a step further. To me, the problem is that too many Jews,
> > even fruhm Jews (especially in America) think America IS home. If
> > Mashiach came tomorrow, one of the biggest problems he would face is
> > convincing them that they should come NOW, and not wait for them to
> > close down their businesses, sell off their houses, or worse. Not
> > directed at this specific poster - just a general comment. 
> > 
> > -- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

What is a "firen"?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message ----- >
> On 7 Mar 00, at 20:59, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
>
> > And when I attend the bris tomorrow BEH of my firen's son, I will start
mourni
> ng
> > that someday this baby too will die?  So we might as well gloss over th
simcha
> > and get to the tachlis immediately, let's all feel bad NOW for the
impending
> > doom?

On 8 Mar 00, at 11:00, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> w/o debating mitzvas yishuv ho'oretz...
> 
> The pre-supposition here is that EY w/o a beis hamikdash is considered
> non-galus.  This pre-suipposition is debatable.  There is not doubt in
> the time of a BhM that EY would not be conidered golus, but until that
> time arrives the status is not so clear cut.

Huh? I think we pasken that kdusha shniya kidsha le'shaata 
v'kidsha l'osid lavo. EY without the BhM may not be on the same 
level, but it's still on a level well beyond chutz la'aretz in terms of 
kdusha.

> Furthermore one might recall that during bayis sheini, most Jews
> remained in Bavel for at least most of that era; and  I would venture
> to say that the USA today is highly parallel to the Bavel of the Bayis
> Sheini era. {Even the name Bavel suggests a melting pot of cultures
> simliar to the USA.}

I think the parallels go well beyond the name. And Ezra haSofer 
wasn't exactly pleased with the behavior of the Jews who stayed in 
Bavel, was he? See the Gemaras about the Leviyim losing their 
(exclusive - depends on who we pasken like) rights to Maaser 
Rishon.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

And my point is why worry about what Americans will do WHEN moshiach comes.  
Let's worry about NOW not the future, or iow the issue isn't how Americans will 
behave come event X but how they are doing in the present set of circumstances?

The question then becomes WHAT is the avoda the task, the mission,the asignemnt 
of American Jewry and how well are they living up to that goal?

You can ask the same re: the Jews in Israel, what is their mission? AAnd how 
well are they doing in fullfiling that mission?




Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[4]: Livin' in the USA   
Author:  <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> at tcpgate
Date:    3/8/2000 11:18 AM


On 8 Mar 00, at 10:41, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> The comparisoin is: "Isn't the eventual demise of the baby Gavriel 
> Moshe halevy as inevitable as the advent of the Moshiach?"

I think you missed my original point. My original point was not that 
R"L there is a holocaust coming to America. It was that American 
Jewry is so wrapped up with their lives and wealth in the galus that 
even if Mashiach came tomorrow (Halevay!) American Jewry 
wouldn't be able to make up its collective mind to leave.

-- Carl

Indeed, Ezra's criteria {icho'ora} was the paultry participatoin in mikdash 
shieni.  It is debatable whether EY today is non-Galus.  We are not debating 
kedushah here, we are debating the status of Golah

If the BhM is NOT the criterian, then the events of 9 Av 70 CE did not throw 
Jews into Golus, because they were still living in EY and were poweful enough to
mount a partially succesful reovle about 60 years later.  So then 9 Av 70 CE is 
not such a critical date or is it?

Certainly legabei YT sheinei EY is qualitatively different than chutz la'aretz. 
However, absent a BhM it is not so clear that making aliya escapes Golus in 
toto.

Obvioulsy Carl holds that way, but other might hold differently, that the medina
is simply another secular non-Torah government etc.

And recall I specifically excluded in line 1 of my post mitzvas yishuv EY.

Nu Carl, aoccording to you, what pervented RYBS from making aliya?

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


Huh? I think we pasken that kdusha shniya kidsha le'shaata 
v'kidsha l'osid lavo. EY without the BhM may not be on the same 
level, but it's still on a level well beyond chutz la'aretz in terms of 
kdusha.


I think the parallels go well beyond the name. And Ezra haSofer 
wasn't exactly pleased with the behavior of the Jews who stayed in 
Bavel, was he? See the Gemaras about the Leviyim losing their 
(exclusive - depends on who we pasken like) rights to Maaser 
Rishon.

-- Carl

friend's son.

sorry

RW


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[4]: Livin' in the USA   
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    3/8/2000 11:27 AM


What is a "firen"?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message ----- >
> On 7 Mar 00, at 20:59, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote: 
>
> > And when I attend the bris tomorrow BEH of my firen's son, I will start 
mourni
> ng
> > that someday this baby too will die?  So we might as well gloss over th 
simcha
> > and get to the tachlis immediately, let's all feel bad NOW for the 
impending
> > doom?

> Ironically, I heard a snippet on the news this morning that said that 
> the Israeli Supreme Court ruled today that the government may not 
> discriminate based on religion or nationality. I have no idea what 
> the context was, and I wouldn't go getting all riled up about this 
> yet, but the implications - if that's what they said and the Knesset 
> doesn't overturn it - are quite far-reaching.

1. COURT FORBIDS JEWISH-ONLY COMMUNITIES
The Supreme Court this morning issued a precedent-setting decision, which
Chief Justice Aharon Barak called "one of the hardest that I have ever
encountered."  The Court ruled that a Jewish community association may not
refuse an Arab citizen permission to buy land on its property and live on
it.



A reality check a day keeps 
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274  

On 8 Mar 00, at 12:05, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> Indeed, Ezra's criteria {icho'ora} was the paultry participatoin in
> mikdash shieni.  It is debatable whether EY today is non-Galus.  We
> are not debating kedushah here, we are debating the status of Golah

What does the status of Galus v. Non-Galus mean? 

To me, galus is the lack of intrinsic kdusha, and from that arise a 
whole host of land-related (trumos, maaseros, shmitta) and non-
land related (Yom Tov Sheini) issues. (Hey - finally something that 
sounds like a real Avodah thread :-) While we are unfortunately in 
galus from the Beis HaMikdash - something I appreciate every time 
I drive home along the North wall of the Old City and see the golden 
sheketz on the Har HaBayis out the windshield - I don't think you 
can extend that to say that people who live in Eretz Yisrael are in 
galus in the same sense that people who live in the US (for 
example) are in galus. 

> If the BhM is NOT the criterian, then the events of 9 Av 70 CE did not
> throw Jews into Golus, because they were still living in EY and were
> poweful enough to mount a partially succesful reovle about 60 years
> later.  So then 9 Av 70 CE is not such a critical date or is it?

I think it is. I think there are three different aspects of galus:

1. Not having a Beis HaMikdash and all that goes with that.
2. Not being in Eretz Yisrael and all that goes with that.
3. Not having all of Am Yisrael in Eretz Yisrael.

So that while I feel the absence of the Beis HaMikdash (and if 
anything, being here and seeing what is now on the Har HaBayis 
makes you feel it more, not less), I don't feel that I am in galus. I 
still feel that we as a nation are in galus, but that's because I can't 
get you guys to get on a plane and come here :-) (I always tell 
people that the two hardest parts of making aliya are leaving behind 
your friends and Sundays. If enough of you got on a plane and 
came here one of those problems could be solved :-).

> Certainly legabei YT sheinei EY is qualitatively different than chutz
> la'aretz. 

So is Yom Tov itself, but that's a different type of qualitative 
difference. It is highly unlikely that we will have snow - or rain for 
that matter - on Pesach this year :-) 

However, absent a BhM it is not so clear that making aliya
> escapes Golus in toto.

I don't think it escapes it in toto. I think it escapes one aspect of it. 
After all, we still don't have yovel here (thanks to you guys :-).

> Obvioulsy Carl holds that way, but other might hold differently, that
> the medina is simply another secular non-Torah government etc.

I wasn't trying to defend the Medina. As far as I am concerned, the 
Medina is a preliminary that will BE"H lead up to a true Jewish 
state based on Torah. I didn't make aliya because of the Medina 
(much as I believe it has done a lot of good, and even those of us 
who are disappointed with its lack of Torah content have to be 
makir tov for all the learning that is able to go on here because of 
it). I made aliya because it's a mitzva to live in Eretz Yisrael. To 
borrow from a different (VERY different) context, it's G-d's country!

> And recall I specifically excluded in line 1 of my post mitzvas yishuv
> EY.

Which to me is the principal argument for making aliya today.

> Nu Carl, aoccording to you, what pervented RYBS from making aliya?

Private discussion.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

I know this is way way off topic, but important nonetheless, are Krispy 
Kreme donuts kosher? I know it has a hecksher, but is it realiable?

/af

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 15:13:01 +0200
> From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
> Subject: Re: Dat U'Medina

<<Hanetz (that was for you RMP>>

	Actually it was for me;   "eagle-eye" spotted it <g>!

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

1. COURT FORBIDS JEWISH-ONLY COMMUNITIES
The Supreme Court this morning issued a precedent-setting decision, which
Chief Justice Aharon Barak called "one of the hardest that I have ever
encountered." The Court ruled that a Jewish community association may not
refuse an Arab citizen permission to buy land on its property and live on
it. 

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

In a message dated 3/6/00 11:50:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< 
 Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:50:57 +0000
 From: sadya n targum <targum1@juno.com>
 Subject: re:secular degrees
 
 Mentioning Rav Gifter's attendance at YU in a discussion of secular
 degrees held by gdolim is a raya listor. He attended for a semester,
 decided there was no value to him in it, and left.
 Sadya N. Targum
 ________________________________________________________________ >>

*********************


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