Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 279

Wednesday, January 12 2000

• Re: Conservative
• Re: Modern Orthodox
• Re: Haredim and Internet
• Re: Gadol Hametsuva veoseh
• Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox?
• slander
• Re: Haredim and Internet
• Re: Regular Shul Attendance and Talking
• Re: Regular Shul Attendance and Talking
• Re: Avodah V4 #278-meameach chasan v'kallah
• Re: Regular Shul Attendance and Talking
• Re[4]: Regular Shul Attendance and Talking
• Re[2]: Modern Orthodox
• Re: Women Davening
• Re: Avodah V4 #277
• Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox?
• standing for chasuna
• Re: Sadigora
• Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox?
• Re: Sadigora
• Re: Women and Avodah -- sweeping
• "How to justify talking in shul as a means of encouraging attendance?" (was Re: Regular Shul Attendance and Talking )

In a message dated 1/11/00 4:32:31 PM US Central Standard Time, 
katzco@sprintmail.com writes:

<< What would you guess is the ratio of women to men at a Conservative
 Shabbos Shacharis? >>

Half and half.

David Finch

In a message dated 1/11/00 11:11:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< asn't it Dr. Lamm who objected to the phrase MO? 
 Didn't he want to redfine it as "Centrism"?
 
 If Dr. Lamm and YU are defined as Centrist, what
 defines MO? Actually how WOULD one difine Centrism?
 
 HM >>
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet

KT
Joel Rich

In a message dated 1/11/00 11:51:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< 
 Seriously, though, I can understand banning TV. It's not just the medium,
 but the truth is there is next-to-nothing actually on it anymore that
 wouldn't have been censored 20 years ago. The same can not be said here.
 Tzaruch iyun, and I'd appreciate any help you people can offer. Albeit anyone
 here is clearly giving an outsider's view...
 
 -mi
  >>
Nothing is good nor bad, only thinking makes it so

KT
Joel Rich

Another explanation is that the sheno metzuveh must be getting some psychic 
reward or they wouldn't be doing the mitzvah

KT,
Joel Rich

--- "Stein, Aryeh E." <aes@ll-f.com> wrote:

> 
> I have heard
> (and I have witnessed on
> one occasion) that R' Aaron Shechter won't stay for
> the meal at a wedding if
> there is mixed seating.  

I find this so upsetting!
 
Especially when the Previous RY of Chaim Berlin, R
Yitzchak Hutner, ZTL did not act that way. Why does R.
Aharon Schechter do this?  Is he saying that mixed
seating is Assur? Is he saying that he is Frummer than
R. Hutner?  There are Photos of R. Moshe Fienstien and
R. Yaakov Kaminetsky sitting mixed. Rav  Aaron
Soloveitchik actually requests sitting next to his
wife even at a seperate seating affair. So it can't be
Assur.  I DON'T GET IT!!!  R. Rogov ZTL, when asked
about mixed seating by one of his brightest talmidim,
Rabbi Erwin Giffen ZL, whose wedding was mixed,
answered, "In Lita zennen mir nit geven makpid" (In
Lithuania we weren't Makpid)  

I know the Teshuvos pro and con. Chasidim were always
Machmir because of their tendancy to go Lifnim
Meshuras Hadin in matters of public Tznius (as opposed
to being mekil in matters of Ervah in private.  But
Misnagdim are not like that!  But with what's going on
now in the Yeshiva world, you could have fooled me!

Pretty soon people like me will be so marginalized by
the Right Wing that we will be written off as Bnei
Torah. Perhaps I already am written off.  

Can I still apply for the Registry?

HM
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In a message dated 1/11/00 6:06:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,Mechy Frankel 
writes:
<< yilamdeinu
 rabbeinu, do you feel that people with such disabilities, say severe
 dyslexia (as seems to be the case here), are shameful, so that the mere
 suggestion that someone may be suffering from such a dyslexia- even naniach
 an incorrect assumption- would be to "slander" him?  >>

Lets not get ridiculously politically correct here. I don't think it is any 
insult to the handicapped to say that, yes, any healthy person would be 
extremely upset to be labeled handicapped or for people to claim that they 
have even a minor disability. And yes many would consider it to be slander. ( 
For the record I have an older brother with a severe handicap, whom I love, 
adore, and think he is a superior human being.) Its like many gedolim say 
that it is a zechus for a parent to have a handicapped child because his soul 
is from a higher source and his limited tools show that he has less to 
accomplish in this world. This does not change the fact that all expectant 
mothers pray very hard for a perfectly "Normal" child. In fact this wish is 
in many of the tefilos written by even the rishonim. It is not an insult to 
those with disabilities to say that we would rather not have them, and rather 
not have others make the claim that we do.

In a message dated 1/11/00 5:05:40 PM US Central Standard Time, 
Joelirich@aol.com writes:

<< 
 << 
  Seriously, though, I can understand banning TV. It's not just the medium,
  but the truth is there is next-to-nothing actually on it anymore that
  wouldn't have been censored 20 years ago. The same can not be said here.
  Tzaruch iyun, and I'd appreciate any help you people can offer. Albeit 
anyone
  here is clearly giving an outsider's view...
  
  -mi
   >>
 Nothing is good nor bad, only thinking makes it so
 
 KT
 Joel Rich
  >>

Perhaps. But its hard to think while you're watching TV. 

Anyhow, the AOL-Times Warner merger points to the continuing acceleration of 
digital communications. In fifteen years, no one will be watching TV as we 
think of it now. Digitalized, fully-animated versions of all sorts of visual 
information will be sent via super-Internet to ubitquitous terminals in every 
house, school, workplace . . . and synagogue. This will include text 
repositories as well as e-mail, instant "video" conferencing as well as 
entertainment, sports, etc. It will include almost everything, really, and 
take over lives. (Who really thinks that in fifteen years the mailman will 
still be stopping by to give us a stack of paper envelopes every day? Or that 
we'll still buy printed-pulp newspapers in the morning? Or that people will 
study Talmud only by opening big books with little words printed inside them?)

This is as inevitable as gravity. It's going to happen even if a few aged 
Ashkenazi Gedolim in Israel think it's a bad idea. If Judaism doesn't adapt, 
it'll die. That's why it'll adapt.

David Finch

--- Kenneth Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com> wrote:
> R' Harry Maryles wrote <<< ... one can theoretically
> never set foot in a
> synagogue and be a completely observant Jew. So, we
> don't have the type of
> reverence that Goyim and 3 day a year Jews have ...
> >>>
> 
> BUT WE SHOULD !!!
> 
> Es Mikdashi Tira'oo !!!

We should have respect, reverence and awe but not
gothic silence.

HM
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In a message dated 1/11/00 5:55:51 PM US Central Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< We should have respect, reverence and awe but not
 gothic silence.
  >>

To whom should we direct our utterances? Or should I ask, to Whom should we 
direct them?

David Finch

In a message dated 00-01-11 18:01:49 EST, you write:

<< R' Aaron Shechter
 won't stay for the meal at a wedding if there is mixed seating.  (He'll
 come for the chupa but will leave before the
 seuda.)  Of course, there is a halachic distinction between an annual
 dinner and a wedding seuda, but..."
 
 Didn't the Rov zt'l say that to be someach chason v'kalloh one had to
 stay for bentching?
  >>
I think that the Rov zt'l quoted from R.Chaim Brisker that when the gemara 
says 'kol hanehaneh misuedas chasan v'kallah v'aino mesamcham oveir al 
chamisha kolos' it refers to someone who ate the meal but did  not stay for 
the sheva berachos.This would not have application to someone who did not 
stay for the meal altogether.

--- DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 1/11/00 5:55:51 PM US Central
> Standard Time, 
> hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:
> 
> << We should have respect, reverence and awe but not
>  gothic silence.
>   >>
> 
> To whom should we direct our utterances? Or should I
> ask, to Whom should we 
> direct them?

The Shul experience is multi-faceted. When you are in
the midst of prayer, your concentration should be to
the Holy One, Blessed be He. When one is listening to
Krias HaTorah, one should be following the text.  When
one listens to the Rabbi's sermon,  one should be
taking a nap.  It is very helpful if the Rabbi's
sermon is droning on and on in a monotonous fashion.
This enables one to catch up on sleep that may have
been missed out on during a busy week.  One should be
careful not to snore as this can be very disruptive to
the decorum.

Shuls are not Churches. Shuls are vibrant places of
worship where one should feel comfortable and at home
while at the same time having a sense of reverance for
where one is .  One of the differences between an O
shul and a C shul is that in a O shul, most people
know why they are there and don't look at it as the
"Synogogue" but as the place where one goes so that he
can Daven with a minyan.  In a C shul most people look
at it as the "Synogogue", sort of like "this is where
G-d lives". Rabbis of most Orthodox shuls understand
this and some have occasionally been seen to carry on
a conversation or 2 with a bal Habos themselves. 
Those Rabbis for the most part realize that their
members will not misconstrue this as not having
respect.  But in C shuls, the Rabbi kind of encourages
this "High Awe" attitude in his congregants.  I
suspect that, at least in some cases, this kind of awe
transfers over to the Rabbi himself and this can be
very ego boosting.

HM

HM
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Agreed, yet it isn't it nice to be melamed zechus on those people who lack awe 
despite the fact we disagree with them?

Rich Wolpoe 


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
 During a minyan, the shul is a place of Awe (literally, not in  the Roman 
Catholic sense). No one should feel too comfortable in a place of Awe.

David Finch

How about a HEDGE of ROSES?

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Modern Orthodox 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< asn't it Dr. Lamm who objected to the phrase MO? 
 Didn't he want to redfine it as "Centrism"?

 If Dr. Lamm and YU are defined as Centrist, what 
 defines MO? Actually how WOULD one difine Centrism?

 HM >>
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet

KT
Joel Rich

On Tue, Jan 11, 2000 at 02:58:19PM -0800, Harry Maryles wrote:
> Women are required to Daven but it isn't exactly clear
> what they are required to daven.  There is one opinion
> that says that they are Yotze with just Brachos and
> don't have to daven Shmone Esreh.  

Does anyone say that this is ideal, to do only brachot and not do
shmoneh esrei?

janaet

Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:05:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Modern Orthodox

- --- Eli Turkel <turkel@post.tau.ac.il> wrote:

Didn't he want to redfine it as "Centrism"?
 I think Rav Gifter in his  haskafa  tape "Stormn Normn" he said R' Lamm
misinterpreted the Rambam that really the centrist view is really with
all the chumras and being modern is not in the middle but it is actually
below.

________________________________________________________________
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If you find it upsetting, then it is assur al pi din for you to believe it,
as it is then either Lashon Ho'Ra or Motzi Shem Ra.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org


----- Original Message -----
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox?


>
>
> --- "Stein, Aryeh E." <aes@ll-f.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > I have heard
> > (and I have witnessed on
> > one occasion) that R' Aaron Shechter won't stay for
> > the meal at a wedding if
> > there is mixed seating.
>
> I find this so upsetting!
>

Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:31:51 -0800
From: "Newman,Saul Z" <Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org>
Subject: standing for chatuna

<<I thought one needed a minyan for chupa-kidushin; and therefore, one
would stand as one would [if one does?] for kadish,barche etc.>>

	As you stand for birchas hamazon or for sheva brochos,  please be
careful not to spill the wine <g>.

	Requiring a minyan does not require standing,  vid. the two examples
above,  tekios demeyushav,  krias hamegila if not for kavod hatzibur, 
etc.

Gershon

In a message dated 1/11/00 3:05:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Michael.Frankel@dtra.mil writes:

>  it's a free country, and you are free to take whatever exception you wish,

Actually IMHO in Bei Gazoh Drachmonoh (Chulin 139a etc.), the freedom 
requires Uvochartoh Bachayim.

>   yet you took my passing mention of his inability
>  to read and write as a "slander" even after I specifically attributed it,
>  despite his unquestioned intelligence, to a learning disability. 

The fact that one attributes greatness where due, does not lesssen the 
slander of the negative, (Vadiraboh Kyodua in the Sugia of Hakol Lfi 
Hamivayeish Vihamisbayeish).

> yilamdeinu
>  rabbeinu, do you feel that people with such disabilities, say severe
>  dyslexia (as seems to be the case here), are shameful, so that the mere
>  suggestion that someone may be suffering from such a dyslexia- even naniach
>  an incorrect assumption- would be to "slander" him?

This reminds me (at least Bderech Remez) to the earlier discussion on this 
list about Yitzchok Avinu (Yishtaku Hadvorim).

Ksav Veloshon are very important as we see in the sugia of Umoh Hogenes 
(Gitin 80a), many Mitzvohs are dependent on reading and writing.
 
>  to start with some kosher li'mihadrin eidus from within the chasidic camp,
>  you might check out the Ohalei Yaacov written by R. Yitzchoq Friedman - the
>  rebbe's direct descendent and a Husitener - who acknowledges that the rebbe
>  got his job very early in life (he became admor about the age of 15) and
>  thus never really had much opportunity to acquire an education before being
>  swept up into the daily grind of the admorate.

What does this have to do with dyslexia, and there are many stories of 
questions and answers that he gave his Mlamdim.

  The Tiferes Yisroel (a
>  modern series of Rhyziner publications) acknowledges that the rebbe's
>  preference for "hiding" his torah greatness brought many outsiders to
>  question its existence, though as we see from the ohelei yaacov, it was
>  questioned internally as well.

Again no mention of dyslexia, (BTW I am sure that you are aware of another 
great Rebbe that actualy wrote Seforim and Leitzonei Hador said that he had a 
shadow writer).

>  the rebbe himself is quoted in chasidic
>  sources - check out the shaar ho'oasios - as remarking that the time to
>  learn to write was when one is a na'ar, but that he himself had never been 
a
>  na'ar and the accompanying comment in the same source that it was known 
that
>  the rebbe haqodosh mirhyzin was barely able to write the correct tsuros
>  ho'oasios.

So never being a Naar is the code word for dyslexia?

> There are other contemporary accounts from people with no axes at
>  all to grind testifying, in accounts highly flattering to the intelligence
>  and greatly positive impression made by the rebbe, to the curious anomaly 
of
>  the rebbe's evident difficulty signing his own name - check out the recent
>  book by Asaf. there is of course a vast maskilish literature including
>  contemporary press accounts, even theater plays, which seized on this fact
>  to ridicule the larger than life target of the greatest of the contemporary
>  rebbes, which might be dismissable as just more anti-chasidic propaganda
>  except for the corroboration on this point offered by both unbiased and
>  internal sources. 

Reminds me of another great Rebbe, who people formed ideas about, which is 
nothing more then conjecture (and since it involves an Odom Godol it touches 
on Es Has-hem E-lokecho Tiroh,) Umadua Lo Yereisem Ldabeir Bavde Bmoshe.

>  
>  these are all rather non-controversial facts.  if one wanted to start a
>  controversy it would rather center on the well trod issues connected to the
>  rebbe's wealth, and, subsequently, the "curse of the ainiklech" which
>  plagued all chasidus, but i have specifically not gone there.

As you also mentioned about the murder implication, I assume that in 
discussing Moshe Rabbeinu one would bring up the Vayatminehu Bachoil, and 
would question the Loi Chamor Echod etc Rachmonoh Litzlan.

>  
>  Also, question for you, what/who is the "ARi Hachai", i.e. who is chai in
>  that phrase?

Gdolim Tzadikim Sheaf Bmisosom Kruyim Chayim.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 1/11/00 6:21:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

> Chasidim were always
>  Machmir because of their tendancy to go Lifnim
>  Meshuras Hadin in matters of public Tznius (as opposed
>  to being mekil in matters of Ervah in private.

???

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 1/12/00 12:56:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, Yzkd@aol.com 
writes:

> Reminds me of another great Rebbe, who people formed ideas about, which is 
>  nothing more then conjecture (and since it involves an Odom Godol it 
touches 
>  on Es Has-hem E-lokecho Tiroh,) Umadua Lo Yereisem Ldabeir Bavde Bmoshe.
>  

To correct my bad choice of words it is not just conjecture but slander

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

Okay, sorry for nudging.  I'm not as patient as Hashem -- He
waited 3 days at Sinai for the Israelites to prepare for
Matan Torah.  Thanks to the lone person who responded to my
note saying that it has given him  some food for thought.

Sweeping.
=======

Here is a very mundane action.  It is not forbidden on
Shabbat (at least I haven't heard so) -- so it's a "no
brainer" (assuming Melacha has something to do with an
action requiring Thought) yet it's part of a woman's
everyday life.

How many times a day does one sweep?

We say Sh'ma morning and evening -- that's 2.
We daven Shmoneh Esrei 3 times a day.

No, both these numbers won't work:   An average mother of
kids keeps the broom (or mop) close at hand to the extent
that one might even consider it to be an extention of her
arm -- every time she turns around someone has dumped
something, especially our lovely children who are at that
age where feeding the floor is just as important as feeding
oneself .... <g>

100 times a day, like the number of B'rachot many try to
make?  I hope not, but from some reports I've heard - I'm
not so sure.  <g>

So, let's move on to the broom -  it is jewish tradition to
use the best for a Mitzvah.  We call it Hidur Mitzvah.  Is
this the attitude towards the home broom?

Next, we spend a lot of time in Judaism on the methodology
of a Mitzvah:  we move the Lulav in X directions in a
specific order.  We light  Chanuka candles according to Beit
Hillel, again in a specific order.   Is there a
halachic/mussar element in deciding how to sweep?  Should we
gather from all 4 corners to the center?  (In which case is
Pe'ah relevant and we shouldn't comment when the kid helping
to sweep leaves what s/he "missed" in the corners?)  Or
should we start from one side of the room, across it till we
finish?  (besides the many local sweep-up jobs run
throughout the day)  What does it say about a woman's Midot
if she choses one way and not the other?

And then the gathering up.  Do we bend our back?  our knees?
use a long-handled pan to collect the dirt?  What can we
learn from this?

Do you think that sweeping is now over?  If yes, you are
mistaken.  As any mother will tell you, now you have to sort
the dirt (problematic on Shabbat) taking out those parts of
toys, paper clips and whatever else someone "accidently"
dropped and waited for mommy to pick up.  What can we learn
from this? - besides patience?  <g>

===============================

If you think I'm joking or writing a Purim Torah -- please,
think again.  I just don't have the knowledge in Torat
HaMussar etc. to truly delve deeply into all the above and
find the path of Hashem.  Perhaps it's information from
another sphere of Torah that can be learned/taught during
sweeping.

So, please -- comments ?

(to be continued)

Shoshana L. Boublil

> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:41:46 -0500
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> Subject: Re[2]: Regular Shul Attendance and Talking
[del for bw]

> (If so, can we re-dub this thread  "How to justify talking
in shul as a means of
> encouraging attendance?"  <big smile>
>
> Rich Wolpoe

(humour alert!)

A few weeks ago someone handed out in Shul a flyer (they
should have waited for Purim), in questionnaire format,
headed with the information that a computer company has been
hired to sort the seating arrangments so that every person
can sit according to the topic they wish to discuss.

They allowed 2 options, so that a person can have one
neighbour for Tefilla and another choice for Kri'at
Ha'Torah.

Then there was a list with boxes where you could mark an X.

Anyone know the origin or where I can get another copy?

Shoshana L. Boublil

*********************


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