Avodah Mailing List
Volume 04 : Number 201
Monday, December 20 1999
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 23:33:54 +0200
From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
Subject: RE: Was re: Reb Shlomo Carlebach and Carlebach minyanim, Now R' Avrohom Elya Kaplan
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[Rav Kaplan writes:]
The average Chasid deludes himself into thinking that a nigun that he sings
wells up from his heart, and that the dveykus that he experiences has its
source in his soul, even though it is entirely possible that these are
transient moods, not associated with his true essence.
[Akiva Atwood:]
If the average Chasid is deluding himself, then doesn't it follow that the
moods MUST BE transient, and not associated with his true nature?
[Rav Kaplan writes:]
One should not judge hastily. We cannot say even to the simplest Chasid,
when he experiences dveykus, that he does not truly cleave to G-d. But that
constant self-critique: "Perhaps I am deluding myself;" the query that
should accompany every step in life: "Have I not strayed in this instance
from the path?"; and, finally, all that is encompassed in the thought that
serves as a necessary precondition for Shivisi Hashem l'negdi tamid ["I have
placed G-d before me always"], namely, the thought, "I have placed my "self"
before me always," - all this is more prevalent in Mussar than in
Chassidus...
[Akiva Atwood:]
With all due respect to Rav Kaplan, the idea of Chasidim singing nigunim and
pursuing Devekus at the expense of self-improvement is a stereotype that
anyone with even a basic knowledge of chassidic sources (or even simple
Rebbe/Chassidic stories) should know to be false. Breslov's Lekutei
Tephillot, for example, are full of prayers of self-critique, of
introspection, of knowledge of one's shortcomings. Or Hisbodedus, which is
not at attempt at devekus but rather an outpouring of the soul, expressing
one's fears, one's needs, one's shortcomings. The constant themes in
chassidic teachings of controlling ones Yetzer, of controlling ones desires,
of Tikun HaBris, of Emunah Peshutah. The typical Rebbe story is a mussar
shmooez aimed at the average Yid.
[Rav Bechhofer writes:]
The essay is of the type that may be described as "Why I am not a Chosid
despite it ma'alos". My statement about Breslov is similar. Breslov has many
ma'alos - but a Chassidus that deprives an adherent of Iyun, is impossible
for me to accept as a derech.
[Akiva Atwood:]
There is a large difference between "recommends Bekiyut" and "deprives an
adherent of Iyun". Breslov encourages it's members to develop a broad
knowledge of Torah rather that an in-depth knowledge of only a part of
Torah.
Both methods are valid, for different kinds of people. (In the same way that
not everyone who goes to university should be a math/physics major).
Akiva
===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274
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<BODY>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
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0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<DIR>
<DIR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><I>
<P align=3Djustify></I><FONT size=3D2>The average <I>Chasid =
</I>deludes himself=20
into thinking that a <I>nigun </I>that he sings wells up from his =
heart, and=20
that the <I>dveykus </I>that he experiences has its source in his =
soul, even=20
though it is entirely possible that these are transient moods, not =
associated=20
with his true essence.<FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial><SPAN=20
=
class=3D480070021-20121999> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P></DIR></DIR></B=
LOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D480070021-20121999>If the average Chasid is deluding himself, =
then doesn't=20
it follow that the moods MUST BE transient, and not associated with =
his=20
true nature? </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<DIR>
<DIR>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT size=3D2>One should not judge hastily. We =
cannot say even=20
to the simplest <I>Chasid</I>, when he experiences <I>dveykus</I>, =
that he=20
does not truly cleave to G-d. But that constant self-critique: =
"Perhaps I am=20
deluding myself;" the query that should accompany every step in life: =
"Have I=20
not strayed in this instance from the path?"; and, finally, all that =
is=20
encompassed in the thought that serves as a necessary precondition for =
<I>Shivisi Hashem l'negdi tamid </I>["I have placed G-d before me =
always"],=20
namely, the thought, "I have placed my "self" before me always," - all =
this is=20
more prevalent in <I>Mussar </I>than in=20
<I>Chassidus</I>...</FONT></P></DIR></DIR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D480070021-20121999>With=20
all due respect to Rav Kaplan, the idea of Chasidim singing nigunim =
and=20
pursuing Devekus at the expense of self-improvement is a stereotype that =
anyone=20
with even a basic knowledge of chassidic sources (or even simple =
Rebbe/Chassidic=20
stories) should know to be false. Breslov's Lekutei Tephillot, for=20
example, are full of prayers of self-critique, of introspection, of =
knowledge of one's shortcomings. Or Hisbodedus, which is not at attempt =
at=20
devekus but rather an outpouring of the soul, expressing one's fears, =
one's=20
needs, one's shortcomings. The constant themes in chassidic teachings of =
controlling ones Yetzer, of controlling ones desires, of Tikun HaBris, =
of Emunah=20
Peshutah.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D480070021-20121999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D480070021-20121999><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The essay is of =
the type that=20
may be described as "Why I am not a Chosid despite it ma'alos". My =
statement=20
about Breslov is similar. Breslov has many ma'alos - but a Chassidus =
that=20
deprives an adherent of Iyun, is impossible for me to accept as a=20
derech.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D480070021-20121999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D480070021-20121999>There=20
is a large difference between "recommends Bekiyut" and "deprives an =
adherent of=20
Iyun". Breslov encourages it's members to develop a broad knowledge of=20
Torah rather that an in-depth knowledge of only a part of Torah.=20
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D480070021-20121999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D480070021-20121999>Both=20
methods are valid, for different kinds of people. (In the same way that =
not=20
everyone who goes to university should be a math/physics=20
major).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D480070021-20121999>Akiva</SPAN></FONT></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>=
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Go to top.
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:40:18 -0500
From: "David Eisenman" <eisenman@umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Mechiras Chametz
RGS wrote:
<<What I saw in the Brisker Haggadah (in the section on halachos of
bedikas
chometz) is that the Griz would ONLY check the sefarim he intended to
use on
Pesach. He did not checki all of his other sefarim AND he also did
not cover
them or otherwise bar access to them. I would guess that he was not
worried
about the chovas bedikah or bal yera'eh but that the crumbs might
somehow fall
into his food. Personally, on Pesach I keep all sefarim away from the
table.
I could not find a source where the Griz explicitly states that there
is no
chovas bedikah for less than a kezayis. >>
In my copy of the haggadah it says that he covered up the seforim that
he was not planning on using.
I don't presume to know the significance of the ma'aseh; I was only
pointing it out. One could imagine at least three possible conclusions
to be drawn from the encounter of the psak and story:
1. The GRI"Z did not in fact pasken like that.
2. The story is inaccurate.
3. The GRI"Z, like they say about R. Chaim, was meikil for others and
machmir on himself (probably the most likely).
Sincerely,
David Eisenman
Go to top.
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:49:37 -0500 (EST)
From: jjbaker@panix.com
Subject: Re[2]: Lechaim - Humor Alert
Go to top.
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:02:19 -0500
From: "David Eisenman" <eisenman@umich.edu>
Subject: Mechiras Chometz
My apologies to R. Gil Student and the list. The reference to the
ma'aseh about the GRI"Z is, in fact, as he cited it. It says that the
GRI"Z did not cover up or otherwise bar access to the seforim which he
was not bodek. I misread it last time.
Sorry for the misinformation.
Sincerely,
David Eisenman
Go to top.
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 01:30:01 +0200
From: "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
Subject: Re: Was re: Reb Shlomo Carlebach and Carlebach minyanim, Now R' Avrohom Elya Kaplan
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Shalom RYGB and chevra,=20
First, please know that if I'm in the company of chassidim who ever =
engage in "misnaged bashing" , I'm the one who speaks up for the mailos =
of the misnaged! :-)I have already read over Akiva's letter in order to =
avoid any duplication- this is quite a long post however, and I hope =
you'll bear with me. I speak only from my personal experiences of these =
derachim and I hope that I do not offend any list members who see things =
very differently.=20
Rav A. E. Kaplan- One should not judge hastily. We cannot say even =
to the simplest Chasid, when he experiences dveykus, that he does not =
truly cleave to G-d. But that constant self-critique: "Perhaps I am =
deluding myself;" the query that should accompany every step in life:=20
I agree with this 100 %=20
Is it possible for a person to fool himself that he's in a state of =
dvekus? Certainly. I don't think that can be achieved from scratch in =
one dance unless the dancer is already pretty free of timtum halev and =
has already been in a state of dvekus before- he's already open enough =
and can more easily return to that state. I'd ask the chassid- "has =
that experience inspired you to be more particular in the way you keep =
mitzvos?" . If he answers- " I MUST be more particular!" I think you =
can believe him. I would characterize the state more as "expansion of =
consciousness" or "harchavas hada'as"/gadlus hamoach- various terms =
appear in the literature. (I'm not talking about something like an LSD =
high but I wouldn't know if it's similar :-) How this ranks in the =
echelons of "dvekus"- I don't know, but I expect it's on the spectrum =
somewhere. Just "feeling good" doesn't qualify.=20
Then he has to make it last. He can do that precisely by being =
particular in the mitzvos (thus clothing every aspect of his soul in the =
light of G-dliness) and by being shalom with everyone. The latter is =
accomplished mainly by ahava- . This is very much the chassidish derech =
in a nutshell. He must always be on guard against ga'ava and anything =
which may distract his avodah. That simple. <g>
I think the core problem here is how to remove that timtum halev- the =
bad midos & the general accumulation of negative stuff. Metaphorically =
speaking, the mussar schools send you in there with an archaeological =
hammer whereas chassidus tends to use the high powered laser approach. =
Both can work- both have their drawbacks. There is a great maala to the =
methodical mussar shitos. You are aware of every detail, you get into =
the psychology of it, you become deeply acquainted with your motives, =
you metaken one midah at a time for month till you get it down pat. It's =
painstaking, it takes a long time- it works. It's very effective. On =
the other hand it can bring a person to becoming so self engrossed and =
so self analytical that they can become immersed and affected negatively =
by the very stuff they have to shift. Many people - not all- become =
discouraged by this method. Many are simply not patient enough. Many are =
indeed successful and have become wonderful tzaddikim, but for many =
reasons it just doesn't suit everyone's psychic makeup. "chanech =
hana'ar al pi darco"=20
(Back in sem we had some really rousing mussar shmuessen from Rabbi =
Yaakov Rapoport- chumash iyun with much Rav Dessler and similar =
sources. I loved it. RYR was also as much likely to quote the ba'al =
haTanya liberally- made for some really interesting classes. On =
reflection I use a modified combined approach)
Chassidus on the other hand, does teach that awareness of our bad =
midos is important. We should have the appropriate charata of course, =
but that too much mental contact with this negativity is actually =
spiritually unhealthy. One shouldn't dwell on it. I can see why many =
people would dismiss this approach as superficial but that is simply a =
misunderstanding of our approach to our inner life.=20
Instead, we use music, dancing and a kind of learning which arouses =
love, awe and the ratzon to receive G-d's light. The light obliterates =
any remaining timtum halev. The main idea- of letting G-d into our =
hearts, is, of course, not unique to chassidus- I've heard it said by =
many gedolim in different words. It is not a chassidish chidush but it =
is a chassidish emphasis and a method of accepting ol malchus shamayim. =
"Where is Hashem's presence? Wherever you let it in." Who can place that =
for me? Let in G-dliness, not as an intellectual concept but as a =
reality. You want Hashem's light with all your ratzon and you simply =
invite it in.=20
This also has its drawbacks, of course- the first and major drawback =
is the one you have already mentioned. One can delude oneself into =
believing that you have let in the light because you have all the =
trappings and are surrounded by other chassidim talking in these terms. =
The second drawback is less common but more dangerous. Anyone who has =
significant psychological baggage can become very disturbed and =
destabilized by experiences of expanded consciousness. Too much =
turbulence in the system. This is probably the reason for the frequency =
of "space cadets" in Breslov. You don't see it as much in Chabad, =
probably because of the emphasis on chochma bina and da'as and because =
alcohol does keep one from flying out of control. :-) Alcohol is a =
depressant, but don't be fooled by the word. Alcohol depresses the =
intensity of higher cerebral functions but does not depress mood in most =
cases. Expansion of consciousness goes way beyond mood.=20
Ultimately one must marshal all ones attributes represented by the ten =
sefirot: the three intellectual sefirot and the seven =
emotional/character sefirot. All these should work as one harmonious =
unit. To accomplish this one has to be highly aware of ones inner life- =
you're operating from there. =20
Certainly, one can gain from a chassidic lifestyle and the study of =
chassidic texts without depriving oneself of iyun. Noone can make you do =
that- and that should not be done esp. if one has a talent for it. =
Chabad espouses the hisbonenus of a subject to its length, breadth and =
depth- as described in a recent essay on this forum.=20
humour alert- the misnaged brings two korban tamids:
"Shivisi Hashem cenegdi tamid" and "chatati cenegdi tamid"=20
The chassid also brings two tamids:
"Shivisi Hashem cenegdi tamid" and "mitzva gedola lihyos besimcha =
tamid"=20
Shalom y'all.=20
=20
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<DIR>
<DIR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial>Shalom RYGB and chevra, =
</FONT></P>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial>First, please know that if I'm =
in the=20
company of chassidim who ever engage in "misnaged bashing" , I'm the =
one who=20
speaks up for the mailos of the misnaged! :-)</FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial>I have=20
already read over Akiva's letter in order to avoid any=20
duplication- this is quite a long post however, and I hope =
you'll=20
bear with me. I speak only from my personal experiences of these =
derachim and=20
I hope that I do not offend any list members who see things very =
differently.=20
</FONT></P></DIR></DIR>
<DIR>
<DIR>
<P align=3Djustify>Rav A. E. Kaplan- One should not judge =
hastily.=20
We cannot say even to the simplest <I>Chasid</I>, when he experiences=20
<I>dveykus</I>, that he does not truly cleave to G-d. But that =
constant=20
self-critique: "Perhaps I am deluding myself;" the query that should =
accompany=20
every step in life: </P>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial> I agree with this 100 % =
</FONT></P>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial>Is it possible for a person to =
fool himself=20
that he's in a state of dvekus? Certainly. I don't think that =
can be=20
achieved from scratch in one dance unless the dancer is already pretty =
free of=20
timtum halev and has already been in a state of dvekus before- =
he's=20
already open enough and can more easily return to that state. I'd ask =
the=20
chassid- "has that experience inspired you to be more particular =
in the=20
way you keep mitzvos?" . If he answers- " I MUST be more =
particular!" I=20
think you can believe him. I would characterize the state more as =
"expansion=20
of consciousness" or "harchavas hada'as"/gadlus hamoach- various =
terms=20
appear in the literature. (I'm not talking about something like =
an LSD=20
high but I wouldn't know if it's similar :-) How this ranks in =
the=20
echelons of "dvekus"- I don't know, but I expect it's on =
the=20
spectrum somewhere. Just "feeling good" doesn't qualify. </FONT></P>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial>Then he has to make it last. He =
can do that=20
precisely by being particular in the mitzvos (thus clothing every =
aspect of=20
his soul in the light of G-dliness) and by being shalom with=20
everyone. The latter is accomplished mainly by ahava- . This =
is very=20
much the chassidish derech in a nutshell. He must always be on guard =
against=20
ga'ava and anything which may distract his avodah. That simple.=20
<g></FONT></P>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial>I think the core problem here is =
how to=20
remove that timtum halev- the bad midos & the general accumulation =
of=20
negative stuff. Metaphorically speaking, the mussar schools send =
you in=20
there with an archaeological hammer whereas chassidus tends to use the =
high=20
powered laser approach. Both can work- both have their drawbacks. =
There is a=20
great maala to the methodical mussar shitos. You are aware of every =
detail,=20
you get into the psychology of it, you become deeply acquainted with =
your=20
motives, you metaken one midah at a time for month till you get it =
down pat.=20
It's painstaking, it takes a long time- it works. It's very =
effective.=20
On the other hand it can bring a person to becoming so self engrossed =
and so=20
self analytical that they can become immersed and affected negatively =
by the=20
very stuff they have to shift. Many people - not all- become =
discouraged=20
by this method. Many are simply not patient enough. Many =
are indeed=20
successful and have become wonderful tzaddikim, but for many reasons =
it just=20
doesn't suit everyone's psychic makeup. "chanech =
hana'ar al=20
pi darco" </FONT></P>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial> (Back in sem we had some =
really=20
rousing mussar shmuessen from Rabbi Yaakov Rapoport- chumash =
iyun with=20
much Rav Dessler and similar sources. I loved it. RYR was also =
as=20
much likely to quote the ba'al haTanya liberally- made for some =
really=20
interesting classes. On reflection I use a modified combined=20
approach)</FONT></P>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial>Chassidus on the other hand, =
does teach that=20
awareness of our bad midos is important. We should have the =
appropriate=20
charata of course, but that too much mental contact with this =
negativity is=20
actually spiritually unhealthy. One shouldn't dwell on it. I can see =
why many=20
people would dismiss this approach as superficial but that is simply a =
misunderstanding of our approach to our inner life. </FONT></P>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial>Instead, we use music, =
dancing and a=20
kind of learning which arouses love, awe and the ratzon to receive =
G-d's=20
light. The light obliterates any remaining timtum halev. The main =
idea- of=20
letting G-d into our hearts, is, of course, not unique to chassidus- =
I've=20
heard it said by many gedolim in different words. It is not a =
chassidish=20
chidush but it is a chassidish emphasis and a method of accepting ol =
malchus=20
shamayim. "Where is Hashem's presence? Wherever you let it in." Who =
can place=20
that for me? Let in G-dliness, not as an intellectual concept but as a =
reality. You want Hashem's light with all your ratzon and you =
simply=20
invite it in. </FONT></P>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial>This also has its drawbacks, of =
course- the=20
first and major drawback is the one you have already mentioned. One =
can delude=20
oneself into believing that you have let in the light because you have =
all the=20
trappings and are surrounded by other chassidim talking in these=20
terms. The second drawback is less common but more dangerous. =
Anyone who=20
has significant psychological baggage can become very disturbed and=20
destabilized by experiences of expanded consciousness. Too much =
turbulence in=20
the system. This is probably the reason for the frequency of =
"space=20
cadets" in Breslov. You don't see it as much=20
in Chabad, probably because of the emphasis on chochma =
bina and=20
da'as and because alcohol does keep one from flying out of=20
control. :-) Alcohol is a depressant, but don't be fooled by the=20
word. Alcohol depresses the intensity of higher cerebral =
functions=20
but does not depress mood in most cases. Expansion of consciousness =
goes way=20
beyond mood. </FONT></P>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial>Ultimately one must marshal all =
ones=20
attributes represented by the ten sefirot: the three intellectual =
sefirot and=20
the seven emotional/character sefirot. All these should work as one =
harmonious=20
unit. To accomplish this one has to be highly aware of ones inner =
life- you're=20
operating from there. </FONT></P>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial>Certainly, one can gain from a =
chassidic=20
lifestyle and the study of chassidic texts without depriving oneself =
of iyun.=20
Noone can make you do that- and that should not be done esp. if one =
has a=20
talent for it. Chabad espouses the hisbonenus of a subject to its =
length,=20
breadth and depth- as described in a recent essay on this forum. =
</FONT></P>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial>humour alert- the misnaged =
brings two=20
korban tamids:</FONT></P>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial>"Shivisi Hashem cenegdi tamid" =
and "chatati=20
cenegdi tamid" </FONT></P>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial>The chassid also brings two=20
tamids:</FONT></P>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial>"Shivisi Hashem cenegdi tamid" =
and "mitzva=20
gedola lihyos besimcha tamid" </FONT></P>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </P>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial>Shalom y'all. </FONT></P>
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Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:56:06 EST
From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Subject: re: Avodah V4 #191
R' Wolpoe explained the importance of separate-gendered bathrooms, locker
rooms, etc, as places where a person <<< can feel free to expose
themselves amongst their own gender w/o falling prey to desires from
those of the opposite gender. IOW a man can feel SAFE from women in a
men's room and vice-versa. Homosexuality potentially undermines this
hypothetical "safety zone". >>>
My philosophy has been similar, but I go a bit further. R' Wolpoe's
explanation is a fine explanation of why MZ is forbidden to non-Jews (if
in fact it is, which I've never looked into). But Am Yisrael has higher
standards than merely protecting ourselves from being on the receiving
end of illicit desire. We try to avoid the temptation of being the
desiring one as well.
To whatever degree we practice separation of the sexes, its purpose is
both to prevent others from thinking improperly about us, and also to
prevent us from thinking improperly about the others. But if
homosexuality were the norm, then tz'nius would be impossible in any
group larger than two. Mechitza would be an impossible concept, for even
if a man and woman would not have any attraction to each other, any third
person would be the same gender as one of those two.
Akiva Miller
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Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:34:47 -0500
From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@juno.com>
Subject: RE: Picking on Homosexuals
Just to supplement what David Finch said
The Torah calls Homosexuality a TOAYVAH...ie it is
unnatural. It eg is natural to want to commit adultery, or
rob or whatever.
But Homosexuality is completely unnatural.
So the people who have these strange desires must think
and feel totally different than us.
Hence we avoid them because we don't understand them
By contrast someone who wants to steal or commit adultery
is 'understood' by us but he didn't control himself on one
particular ocassion.
I think the emphasis should be put on STRANGENESS and
unpredictability
Russell
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Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:31:36 -0500
From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@juno.com>
Subject: RE: Not a proof---Why not?
Could Sender kindly tell me why the attached is not a proof?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:38:07 -0500
From: "Allen Baruch" <Abaruch@SINAI-BALT.COM>
Subject: RE: Davenning re the wicked
While I don't believe this is a raayoh to anything, they do tell
a story about (pretty sure it was) R' Akiva Eiger where he reminded
a man who refused to give his wife a get that the mishna says
"v'koneh as atzmah b'get uv'missas haball". The man still rudely
refused and when he left the building , fell down the stairs and died.
kol tuv
Sender Baruch
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Russell;
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