Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 170

Thursday, December 9 1999

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:23:41 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jonathan J. Baker" <jjbaker@panix.com>

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Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:28:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@columbia.edu>
Re: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...

micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger) writes:

> I tried to comment before, less directly, on people arguing about
> people instead of issues. As we're moving from wholesale insult of
> overwhelming majority of the rabbinate to also including retail
> comments about members of this list, I feel I ought to speak more
> strongly.

This is davka why I quote snippets of posts WITHOUT owners' names
attached.  I'm interested in the issue, not the individuals.

But as I said to someone in private email, I'm mightily fed up with the
defend-the-faith stance versus the how-can-we-fix-this stance.

How many ways are there to say this???

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu
"Call on God, but row away from the rocks"

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Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:43:15 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Re[2]: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...


The problem is that we have a reduced set of active miztvos following churban 
Bayis shieni.  While thepower of Beis din was weakened, but the halochos that 
evolved during Bayis Sheini remained in force. 

On a machshovo level, almost no one really mourns the loss of Torah power that 
went with the BhM, they want Moshiach or korbanos or all kinds of wonderful 

My desire is to get a fully bona fide Sanhedrin reconstituted and to restre the 
entire Torah lifestyle as it sued to be during the Mikdash era.  

Bottom line Aguna isn't a problem it's a symptom.

Restore Torah into the lishka and the only agunos you might have would be the 
cases of missing husbands - recalcitrant husbands would become relics of the 

My 2 cents on sheyoboneh beis hamikdosh bimheiro beyomeinu

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
  When was there ever
a Torah-based society in which torah law could be enforced, at least since 
the time of Shlomo haMelech? 

BTW, if you haven't noticed yet, as a pessimist I'm much better at 
describing problems than at suggesting workable solutions.


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Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:24:31 -0800 (PST)
From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Re: co-opting music

--- "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
> > But something about those carols makes me uneasy,
> Seriously-  this is a dilemma.  Can we "redeem"
> these nigunim?  Can we put
> frum words to them, or use them in an avodas Hashem
> context  (implying
> they're in klipah noga), or do we say the source is
> impure and they cannot
> be redeemed?  Would the latter apply to music
> specifically written for the
> church?

The opening to the Beatles "All You Need is Love" is
the National Anthem of France, which was co-opted by
the Lubavitcher Rebbe (pre-Beatles) into his music
reportoire and is now sung matter of factly by
Lubavitchers all over the world and, indeed, is deemed
holy by most Lubavitchers. 

I'm not sure this would apply to Church music, I tend
to doubt it as it is at least Avak Avodah Zarah (is
there such a concept?).  

Christmas carols IMHO can be broken down into two
categories, Religiously themed, and non Religious...
"Silent Night" representing the former, and "Jingle
Bell Rock" the latter. There is probably a difference
as to the permissibilty of enjoying one or the other,
even though it's kind of disgusting to listen to even
the non-relgious versions, merely because it is so
associated with the "Season". Unfortunately, I do
enjoy some of that music and whenever I hear a tune
that I like I feel really guilty for enjoying it.

Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
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Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 18:26:32 EST
From: DFinchPC@aol.com
Re: Is it on the Level

In a message dated 12/8/99 12:42:53 PM US Central Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< Q: what to do with Menorahs whose canldes have differing heights?
 IOW a menorah that appears to be a descending or ascdning diagonal?

A generous pouring of pre-Kosovo plum brandy will solve the problem, as will 
standing on a skateboard and slowing lifting the appropriate foot.

David Finch

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Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 18:29:22 EST
From: DFinchPC@aol.com
Re: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...

In a message dated 12/8/99 1:31:56 PM US Central Standard Time, 
gil.student@citicorp.com writes:

<< Let's 
 take an informal poll.  How many people on this list used a prenuptial 
 agreement requiring a get upon civil divorce?  Personally, I only know of 
 one person. >>

As a lawyer, I've seen quite a few such agreements. I've even seen the 
get-giving requirement inserted in a ketubah. Were all women to insist upon 
such an agreement, the problem would more or less go away.

David Finch

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Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:36:14 -0800 (PST)
From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Re: Re[2]: co-opting music

--- richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
> My opinion - there is music and there is music
> <smile>
> Some music (EG Bach) seems to me to be a more pure
> approach to G-d and does not 
> seem to have heavy Xtian-specific motifs
> OTOH, take Wagner. Even his own grandson ("Twilight
> of the Wagners") finds his 
> music unredeemable.  Some music just has too much
> "baggage" to redeem. 

Yes, Richard Wagner, "Yimach Shemo" was an
Anti-Semite! But his music was as beautiful and
majestic as was his face and soul ugly!

One of my favorite pieces is "Ride of the Valkyries"
as is his "Prelude to Lohengrin". I feel guilty for
this but music is funny that way.  If you listen to a
piece and you like it, then you find out the composer
was an Anti-semite,  How are you supposed to unlike

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Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

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Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 18:43:23 EST
From: DFinchPC@aol.com
Re: co-opting music

In a message dated 12/8/99 5:01:21 PM US Central Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< Christmas carols IMHO can be broken down into two
 categories, Religiously themed, and non Religious...
 "Silent Night" representing the former, and "Jingle
 Bell Rock" the latter.  >>

I'm sorry, Harry, but I disagree. "Jingle Bell Rock" is quite religiously 
themed. Elvis Presley did a cover version in 1968, and when he was broadcast 
singing it on the Ed Sullivan show he started to cry. With a Memphis beat, 
the song's intense symbolism becomes apparent. I.e., the "Rock" is the 
Redeemer, especially when sung by the "King"; the "Bell" tolls for Thee. 
Apropos another Avodah discussion, were I enough of a mamzer (. . . don't say 
it, Harry), I'd cry, too.

David Finch

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Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 19:40:48 -0500
From: Joe Markel <moshiach@nauticom.net>
Re: Agunah

I've seen this done. It was done "under the table"

Also, other methods are available such as extreme harassment, business
boycott, etc.

Often, rabbis are afraid to take bold action.

Akiva Atwood wrote:

> > Actually we CAN force him - Rambam - You can beat him up
> > until he  agrees,
> True -- but only certain types of Beis-din can order that, and the secular
> courts would arrest the Beis Din for ordering the assault.
> >
> > A real Agunah is where the husband disappears.
> >
> I know.
> Akiva
> ===========================
> Akiva Atwood
> POB 27515
> Jerusalem, Israel 91274

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Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 19:47:31 -0500
From: Joe Markel <moshiach@nauticom.net>
Avodah = Hisbonenus

          Hisbonenus - Kabbalistic Contemplation

The main Avodah according to the Mittler Rebbe of Lubavitch in Kunters
HaHitpaalus is davka Hisbonenus, Chassidic/Kabbalistic contemplation. 
Hisbonenus is often mistaken to mean meditation or concentation but
that is not so. In Hebrew Concentration or Meditation is Haamokas
Hisbobenus comes from the root Bina - Understanding and
means deep, intensive study.

And now we shall explain the actual workings of
Hisbonenus - what it is, and what is the subject matter of
this Hisbonenus.

Hisbonenus is essentially the idea of looking intensely
into the depths of a topic and going over it a lot and
examining it from different perspectives until
one understands it clearly with all its parts in
particular detail. And this is the innerness of Binah
(understanding) which is called in the language of the
Talmud Iyun as it says in Tractate Succah "there's a type
of study called Girsah (fast superficial study) and a type
called Iyun (deep intensive study).

The explanation of Girsah is to just understand the topic
at first glance which without stopping to go over the
matter at all.

For instance someone who looks with his eye at some object
but only in a superficial manner, so that after some
time he will certainly forget about it completely and will
not be able to tell someone else about it other than vague
generalities. Analogous to this is the passing of the
mind's eye over some logical theory at first glance and
without any stopping or waiting to look into it properly.
thus he will not he will not have knowledge into the
limits of the theory at all and certainly not be able to
explain it to someone else.

And Iyun is a deep looking into the concept. That is, that
he goes over the conceived thing and looks
into it a lot. He studies it over and over and looks at
all the different available explanations which shed light
on various aspects of the subject matter. This is a
process of slowing down, the opposite
of going over a subject fast, in order to come to
the depths of the concept as it is in its essential self
innerness and the inner insides of it specifically.

As one who looks at something with his physical eye and
not just glancing over it but with an open eye and deep
looking for a long time till he knows this (physical
object) well with all its inner parts and inner innerness
(like inside workings).

And this is what's called Hisbonenus with a double Nun
specifically. (two N's -hisboNeNus the same root as Binah)
that is , that he thinks into the thing and looks at it a
lot. And like Rash"i explains on the meaning of the word
"Iyun" : -to go over the thing until it is understood
clearly etc.-

Now we find that this aspect of Iyun (repetitive deep
study) is just in the aspect of a vessel in regard to the
actual deep delving of Binah itself.Because at first
glance this Iyun is what is called the deep concentration
of the mind in the language of the world, but it is not so
since the concentration of the mind is just a vessel to
come to the depths of the thing actually (as it is).

And higher than this is called a Ma'amik (deep delver) who
reaches higher than even the wisdom itself. Even though
the Chochmah is in the aspect of being the actual Ein
(nothing) (non-apprehended ethereal source) of the concept
before it came to be include in the depth of the point of
the Musag of Binah (the idea as it is intellectually
grasped by understanding). Like a spring in regards to a

river as stated above. But the aspect of going deep into
the root of the idea, the root of this (aspect) reaches
into the root which brings forth the flowing of the spring
of Chochmah etc. and is called the depths of Chochmah or
the hidden places of Chochmah

For in the same way that there is a depth and a length and
a width in Binah (Understanding) as stated above, so too
there is a depth and a length and a width in the spring of
Chochmah (wisdom) which is called the Ein (nothing). And
the depth of the spring, that is, the beginning of the
root of its origins in its depth from whence its flowing
spreads upwards until it breaks through and comes out drop
by drop as it reveals itself from its hiding and its total
hidenness, that (depth of Chochmah) is its total depth
below like the springs of the abyss (the hidden reservoirs
of great waters that are hidden deep in the earth from
whence the outer spring flows) which burst open (at the
time of the Flood). For the earth is full of tunnels and
channels etc. in the veins (of the earth) which have a
primary depth. And this is what is written "and the
Chochmah comes into existence from the Ein (nothingness)".
That is from the hidenness of the Chochmah which is called
the depth of Chochmah.

Now Chochmah is the discovery of a new intellectual idea
which comes out like a flash of lightning etc. as is known
and the source of its origins in its hidden depth is its
main essence and inner innerness as was explained above
about the depth of the Musag of Binah (the idea as it is
intellectually grasped by Understanding) which is just the
depth of the apprehension of Binah which is felt in the
way of a Yesh (something) during the understanding of some
subject through a revealed theory. (It was explained) that
the depth of the explanations of the Hassogah (the reach
of Binah) is in the aspect of being an Ein (nothing) only
in respect to the Yesh (somethingness) of the Hassogah
itself and this has no comparison to the Ein (nothingness)
of Chochmah itself before it comes to be included in the
Hassogah at all not even in the depths of it (the Hassogah
of Binah) which is its essence. (i.e. the nothing of Binah
is more of a something than the something of Chochmah).

However, the true depth of the Musag is called Sha'ar
HaNun (the Fiftieth Gate) of Binah (which), even though it
is brought down from the Ein (nothing) of Chochmah into
the Yesh (something) (of Binah when one by repetitive Iyun
study, i.e. Hisbonenus, brings the concept into his mind
in a way it can be grasped), nonetheless ***

[As it is written "A spring comes out from under the Holy
of Holies, its beginning is thin like the horns of
grasshoppers etc." and the like]

***nonetheless the root of it (Sha'ar HaNun) reaches until
the depth of Chochmah as is explained above.

As we see in actuality that anyone who delves deeply just
into the depth of the Musag (of Binah) will eventually
discover the root and source of the Muskal (the pure
intellectual idea of Chochmah) and will be able to
discover new aspects of the light of Chochmah and bring
them into Binah (felt, graspable Understanding).

And this is what is called a deep delver (lit. a deepener)
because he deepens the depths of Chochmah and Binah.

[ And according to this are the explanations of what is
meant by: "Understand in wisdom and be wise in
understanding" which are explained in the writings that is
the 72 of the 63 (in the mystical kabalistic numerous
there are various numerical combinations of various divine
names. In this particular case 72 represents Chochmah and
63, Binah) -Chochmah of Binah - which is simply to
understand another new thing (interpretation, meaning,
function, etc.) from the Musag of Binah.)

All this comes only through the exercise of Iyun
(repetitive intensive analytical study), as is explained
above, which is to analyze the subject matter into all of
its parts with detailed identification (of each). And this
is called Binah of Binah.

And only after this (process of Iyun/analysis) is it
possible to give birth to new ideas and to discover in
Chochmah new reaches of understanding (Binah) but only in
this particular Musag. And this is called Chochmah of

However, the Crown (Kesser) of Binah is the depth of the
Musag as explained above whose root reaches into the depth
of Chochmah as explained above.

And understanding of wisdom (Binah of Chochmah) that is
the 63 of the 72 is the power of explanation within the
Chochmah itself that he is able to bring it out in many
different methods of explanation. This is referring to the
idea the way it is above the grasp of Binah (when the idea
is still a flash of inspiration within Chochmah)

Now, what they were referring to when they said "Nevonim
(men of understanding) were not found (by Moses to place
as judges)" this refers specifically to one who can
understand something from inside of something which comes
from the source of this power of Binah of Chochmah which
reaches into the depth of Chochmah as above. And therefore
he can understand a whole different wisdom from his
understanding of this wisdom. (that is, his comprehension
can spread from one subject matter to another because when
- through his deep Iyun study of the first subject matter
and the awakening of the bower of Binah of Chochmah - he
reaches the inner depths of Chochmah of the first subject
matter, this inner depth may be the inner depth of
Chochmah of other subject matters too, sometimes even
deeper subject matters.)

And this (power of understanding something from inside of
something) is a higher level than a wise man (Chochom).
That is, it is even higher than the discovery of a
particular concept of Chochmah from the Ein(the ethereal,
non existent state of the concept before it even came into
the mind as a flash of inspiration) since the wise man
cannot understand any other wisdoms or intellectual
concepts out of the new inspirational discovery.

[But nonetheless, when he understands through the Hasogah
of Binah (the reach of the power of Understanding) into a
new Hasogah (idea) within the original Hasogah (Chochmah
of Binah as explained above), the root of this (power of

the mind) is Binah of Chochmah (i.e. the root of Chochmah
of Binah is in Binah of Chochmah) which is the power to
understand something (totally new) from inside of
something except that this (power of Binah of Chochmah
within Chochmah of Binah) is hidden in the source of the

And we find that the order of the levels is as follows:

1. The aspect of Iyun (which is synonymous with
Hisbonenus) which was explained above which is to go over
the matter and analyze it clearly (into all its parts)
which is called Binah of Binah which is to analytically
examine (the subject matter) totally into all its various
separations and definitions of both the internal and
external aspects of the topic.

And from this can come out the length (of Binah) to bring
down the Hasogah (intellectual reach into the idea) with
many enclothments until it is gross enough for the
intellectual grasp of a baby as was explained before. But
not the width with many different explanations to
different sides (from different angles) etc.

2. And afterwards, from the aspect of Chochmah of Binah,
to discover new things in one Hasogah as explained above
(that is, to discover new facets or ways of looking into
the topic but only into this topic and not another topic)

And this is what's called width and from this (power of
Chochmah of Binah) comes the power of Binah of Binah to
bring about the length.

3. But the amount of length and width of Chochmah and
Binah Which are in Binah depends on the depth of the
Musag (idea) which is called Kesser (Crown) of Binah. As
we see in actuality that according to the depth thus will
be the amount of width and length of any intellectual
topic and this is enough for he who understands. (The
amount of width and length in a very deep topic will be
more than in a shallow topic.)]

And according to the above, what the world calls Haamakas

Hadaas (the deep engrossment of the mind - Daas is usually
translated as knowledge),this is not the main substance of
the deep delving like the depth of the Musag of Binah for
this has no relationship to Daas.

But rather, Daas is the aspect of the thorough bonding of
his  feeling (of the mind) to the Musag (concept) and this

is what brings about the aspect of deep (comprehension) of
the musag after the above mentioned Iyun so that it is
just like an aspect of a vessel to the depth of the
Hasogah (the understood concept) as was stated above.

And in Daas there is also length and width and depth. For
example one whose Daas (Attention, attachment to the idea)
is short and one whose Daas is long and one whose Daas is
wide but not long and a strong Daas or a light Daas such
as women whose Daas is light, that is, without the depth
of Daas and automatically his Daas is short etc.

and this difference between those of light Daas and deep
Daas, between a mature adult and a young child is known.
that the child's Daas is light, that is he does not have
the (mental) power of feeling and connection to this thing
that he understands or wants except in a very external way
that's why he can easily be swayed to its opposite.
it is not like that by an adult whose Daas is deep into
this thing which he understands or wants and this is
called Haamokas HaDaas (the Deep connection or
concentration of the mind) and therefore there will
automatically be the length of Daas and the width of Daas
as explained above about Binah.

And the sign of Haamokas HaDaas is when it looks as if he
is concentrating and compressing his brain because of his
great connection to the Muskal (the Idea)...

[He is very taken up and strongly squeezed into it because
he is very concentrated into one aspect and view]

....and it is specifically from this (concentration) that
the essence of the depth of the Hasoga comes through the
Iyun of Binah which is the opposite of concentration and
compression since the Iyun of Binah, even though he stands
over it and tarries in a concentrated compressed way in
the beginning, but immediately he spreads out into a great
width into all the particular divisions (of the concept)
with a very particular examination as is known.

However it is not so with the concentration compression of
Haamakas Hadaas (the deepening of Daas),  on the contrary,
it's just the concentration which is the gathering and
collection of the entire power of his brain to be
connected exclusively to this (particular) Muskal (idea),
which is the opposite of the spreading out of the Iyun
with the widening of the subject of the Muskal. However,
it is specifically through Haamokas HaDaas (concentration
on the subject matter) that he comes to the depth of the
Muskal all the way till its source in the depths of
Chochmah and Binah. [All the way to Daas Elion (Upper Daas
i.e. Kesser) which joins Chochmah and Binah together as
was explained above about the depth of the Musag of Binah.
And this is (what it means when it says that) Daas is
hidden in the mouth of the Mother (Binah) etc. And like
they said: Moses, who is the Daas, merited to Binah which
is the Shaar HaNun (the 50th gate) because this depends on
that (i.e. Daas & Binah are interdependent) as it is
written in the Writings and in various places, and this is
enough for he who understands.)

*NOTE - Musag = the idea in Binah.
        Muskal = the idea in Chochmah

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Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 20:03:03 EST
From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Re: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...

Gil Student asked <<< How many people on this list used a prenuptial
agreement requiring a get upon civil divorce? >>>

I did not, but when I got married (1980) prenups were not as common as
now. Does anyone know if there are any such agreements useful by people
who are already married? I'd like to hop on the bandwagon if only to
serve as an example to my children.

R' Daniel Schwartz wrote <<< They are however afraid to take bold steps
to help them.  They fear the missiles that might pass over their right
shoulders if they did. >>> And R' Akiva Atwood's response was <<< No,
they're afraid of being responsible for introducing mamzerim into Clal
Yisroel. >>>

I think R' Atwood misunderstood R' Schwartz, who (it seemed to me) is not
taking sides pro or con regarding R' Rackman.  R' Schwartz's complaint
(it seems to me) is that certain rabbis should not be advising men to
force their wives to give up their rights, and those rabbis should
instead do things which they ARE capable of, such as denying those men
any honors in shul etc etc etc, as specified in the seruv which they have

Akiva Miller

Why pay more to get Web access?
Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

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Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 21:06:45 EST
From: Broasters@aol.com
Re: Avodah V4 #169

Never fearing to display my ignorance on any issue, here's one idea regarding 
the agunah discussion.

The gemara (I seem to recall it being in kiddushin, but whatever) discusses 
the case of a man who is mekadesh a women who then disappears.  He can then 
never remarry, because his subsequent bride may be a sister/mother/daughter 
to the original wife.

So, the Talmud recognizes the possibility that halacha may absolutely 
preclude someone from having a happy life.  That does not mean that we 
shouldn't do whatever we can to alleviate this (or any) suffering, but it 
does certainly mean that wills (rabbinic or otherwise) do not always result 
in halachic ways.


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Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 23:27:45 EST
From: Zeliglaw@aol.com
Re: Avodah V4 #168

have any list members read the new Jewissh Action? There are four 
perspectives ranging from R Adam Mintz,REmannuel Feldman , Rabbanit Chana 
Henkin and An anonymous haredi woman. Rabbi Mintz's column suggests that we 
cannot rely upon the views of gdolim such as the Rav Z'l which are expressed 
in anecdotal form(i.e. Rav Schacter). I thought that the key to the mesorah 
was how a rebbi said something , his emphasis and what was ikar and what was 
tofel.Instead, R Mintz suggests that we apply our own logic to the women's 
prayer group without asking what is the mesorah on this issue. Further, he 
dissmisses the notion of lishma or motivation out of hand.               
                                                Steeven Brizel

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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 08:42:37 +0200
From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
RE: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...

>     Really?  Which poskim have putrightly said that?

I heard privately from two poskim here in Jerusalem. Also, if:

1) Most poskim do not accept the Get from R' Rackman's Beis din as valid
(i.e. the woman is still married halachically)

2) The woman remarries based on that Get


3) according to the poskim in #1, she's committing adultery.

> This issue has seen a tremendous paucity of honest
> intellectual debate.

It's NOT an intellectual issue -- it's a HALACHIC issue.

IN an itlellectual issue, WE make the rules, and WE can change them. In a
halachic issue, GOD made the rules, and our ability to change them is
severely limited.

> rabbis prepared to
> admit that Judaism, the word of G-d is imperfect and allows
> the gravest of injustice to abide?  I think not.

Why not?

And why is this the "gravest of injustice"? (I'm not belittling the pain
they suffer, but there *are* other "injustices" -- Mamzerut, Kohanim
marrying divorced women, Murder, etc. It depends on what you are involved

Man-caused injustice? If ploni murders someone, even though the Torah
prohibits it, do we say the Torah is at fault?

The fault lies not within the Torah but in ourselves.

>     I would guess that a mamzer has more tikkunim available
> to him than does an agguna.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

>   Again it's a matter of priorities.

True -- usually determined by one's involvement in the issue.


Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

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