Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 167

Tuesday, December 7 1999

• Re: Fw: Episcopalians & the Earth
• Re: cynicism; agunot
• Re: co-opting music
• Re: co-opting music
• Re: co-opting music
• Re: Avodah V4 #165
• Re: co-opting music
• Fw: birchas haroeh
• Re: The Tenth Man
• Re[2]: co-opting music
• Re: The Tenth Man
• Re[2]: The Tenth Man
• Re[2]: The Tenth Man
• Re[2]: Problem kids - ADD
• Re: Hamakom(Long)
• Re[2]: The Tenth Man

SL Boublil wrote:

>>and esp. in view of the Episcopalian drive to christianize the jewish 
people>>

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think that the Episcopalian are NOT 
missionizers.

Freda Birnbaum wrote:

>>Hmmm... If I were a visiting Martian, with no axe at all, I'd wonder why
they hadn't solved it by now.>>


If I were a Martian I would wonder why "the rabbis" are having anything to 
do with a matter between husband and wife.  I would also think that every 
time "the rabbis" are able to assist a woman would be considered a generous 
help rather than taken for granted.

Actually, the Kol Nidre/Avot/Aleinu is a motif universal to the High
Holidays.  It appears, in one form or another in every single Jewish
Community. (Cantor Bernard Beer, the dean of the Belz School of Jewish Music
told me this, and reffered me to Idelsohn's Jewish ethno-musicology) In some
Sephardic musical traditions, it is used in the Vidui (albeit in variated
form).  Shearith Israel, which is Sephardic in the Amsterdam tradition used
the motif in Aleinu as do the Ashkenazim.  If you check the writings of
Cantor Macy Nulman, the former dean of the Cantorial Training Institute at
YU, you will find a number of articles on the subject.  Or AYLC (ask your
local chazan)
DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ, ESQ. SPECIALIZING IN ALL ASPECTS
OF MATRIMONIAL, FAMILY AND COMMERCIAL LITIGATION FOR
FURTHER INFORMATION INQUIRE AT:
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
----- Original Message -----
From: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: co-opting music


I believe RSO was protesting that this seems to be an Ashkenaz-centric
perspective.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel B. Schwartz <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: co-opting music


> As I stated in my previous post the MiSinai Melodies are:  Avot (for the
> High Holidays)/Aleinu (for the high Holidays)/Kol Nidre (all of which are
> based on the same motif), The Kadeishim and Avot from Tal and Geshem
(which
> are alike), and the Kadish and Avot from Neliah.  Anyone who has
worshipped
> in an Orthodox Schul at the times that the above were prayed, and heard a
> chazan or ba'a' tefilah of even minimal competance has heard those tunes.
> The prihibition on changing those melodies can be found in Orach Chaim
§614
> (?), in the laws of Rosh Hashana and that period of the year.  The Ramah
> states trthe prohibition clearly.  It is based on a ps'ak of the Maharil.

I don't have the needed sefarim in my office to do so. I'll check it tonight
after I bensch Chanukka licht.

DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ, ESQ. SPECIALIZING IN ALL ASPECTS
OF MATRIMONIAL, FAMILY AND COMMERCIAL LITIGATION FOR
FURTHER INFORMATION INQUIRE AT:
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
----- Original Message -----
From: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: co-opting music


It's not in 614. Could you please check the reference and let us know where
it is? I am fascintated by the concept. Thanks.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel B. Schwartz <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: co-opting music


> The prihibition on changing those melodies can be found in Orach Chaim
§614
> (?), in the laws of Rosh Hashana and that period of the year.  The Ramah
> states trthe prohibition clearly.  It is based on a ps'ak of the Maharil.

In a message dated 12/7/99 9:09:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
TROMBAEDU@aol.com writes:

<< 
 I do not feel that way about church music in general, when listened to in a 
 neutral environment. But something about those carols makes me uneasy, like 
 its being shoved down our throats  so that we may be reminded just whose 
 country this is. 
 No halacha here, just a gut feeling.
  >>
IMHO Not a bad thing to be reminded of, No halacha here, just a gut feeling.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> queries, in v4n165, regarding my
points:
(my original statements have the colons, Micha's have the arrows)
: I have always understood that one should always say it in the
masculine
: plural, since you are including the mourner(s) amongst all Aveilei
: Yisrael; this, in fact, may be a part of the nichum.

>>The line is "May the Omnipresent comfort you amongst the
mourners..."
>>The gender of the mourners of the second clause, the "you" is
>>amongst, should have little to do with the gender of "you". So, I'm
not >>sure how your point is relevant.

: Rabbi Adam Mintz (then at KJ), along with all of the people who were
: present, recited nichum aveilim together, and then he recited an
English
: translation that went "May G-D comfort you amongst all of us who
mourn
: for Zion and Jerusalem."  This would not absolutely necessitate
reciting
: eschem all the time, but they do work together nicely. 

>>Again, I'm not sure of the relevance, as the gender and number of
the
>>speaker(s) has nothing to do with the gender and number of the "you"
>>they are speaking to.

>>More on the point: where does the "of us" come from? It says "bisoch
>>sha'ar avlei tziyon viYrushalayim" -- not "bisocheinu, sha'ar..."

I don't know what the source of his translation/paraphrase is, but if
you understand the "Aveilei Zion V'Yerushalayim" to be all of Klal
Yisrael mourning for the Beis HaMikdash (i.e. "of Zion V'Yerushalayim"
is acting as an objective genitive not a subjective genitive to adapt
the Greek terminology [I'm not sure if Hebrew grammar has similar
terminology, but the principle nevertheless applies]), then the second
person pronoun in the first clause is freed up to refer to the other
members of Klal Yisrael who are sitting shiva at that particular time.
As you sensed, if the aveilim in the second clause are themselves those
Bnei Yisrael who are sitting shiva, then including the avel amongst them
with a masculine plural pronoun in the first clause seems redundant.  

Once you are including the avel amongst a larger group of unspecified
people, then the pronoun will be masculine plural .

I don't think the choice of "bisoch" and not "bisocheinu" is koveia
either way.  If you understand "Aveilei Zion V'Yerushalayim" as an
"objective genitive," then the "amongst us" is readily implied and can
remain elliptical.

Sincerely, 
David Eisenman

R' YGB replied:



> > (?), in the laws of Rosh Hashana and that period of the year.  The Ramah
> > states trthe prohibition clearly.  It is based on a ps'ak of the Maharil.
> 


> 
> I believe RSO was protesting that this seems to be an Ashkenaz-centric
> perspective.
> 



It wasn't actually a protest, I just casn't place the melodies he referred
to. I admit that  the thought did cross my mind, and I haven't been in a
Ashkenazi Schule (?!) for Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur in longer than I can
remember (Well over 20 years, easily).

An interesting thing that accompanied the thought of Ashkenocentricism was
an instinctive reaction on my part to the "...worshipped in an Orthodox
Schule...". My first thought was "but I'm not Orthodox". Lest you get the
wrong idea, I'm not Conservative, Reform, or Reconstructionist either.  

I'm going to go home at lunch and grab a mahazor. I still can't place
those melodies.


---sam

From my brother in law, R' Chaim Brown:

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
> << The Rogatchover holds that ba'zman ha'zeh one does not make birkas
> ha'ro'eh (k'medumeh li a chiddush gadol)...Obviously not every one agrees.
> The Brisker minhag is to make the beracha of she-asa nissim between the
> first and second candles so that one sees the first candle and it also
> counts as birchat haroeh. I am told that Rav Lichtenstein paskened that a
> soldier who is in the field and has a family lighting for him should
> nevertheless say birchat ha-roeh if he happens to see a chanuka candle.
<<<

> Firstly, when the Rogatchover says no birchas haroeh does he mean when you
> do the hadlakah not to recite she'asah nissim, or, what I'm guessing he
> means (I don't have the sefer), that when you see someone else's menorah
> there is no obligation for birchas haroeh.  The latter is rooted in the
> shitas haRaMBaM, who does not record an obligation to say birchas haroeh
> other than at the time of lighting.  You don't need a Brisker chumrah
(based
> on Mes. Sofrim) to argue - the Rambam is unique and all others do quote
the
> halacha of birchas haroeh making no exception b'zman hazeh.  Finally, R'
> Lichtenstein's psak is taluy in a machlokes Rishonum; the Aurch haShulchan
I
> think is already machriya that you can say the beracha even if someone is
> lighting for you.

> I have always been bothered by this Brisker (I thought it was a chiddush
of
> the Rav) chumrah.  The Brisker's (Gri"Z on Chanukah) hold that you cannot
> seperate the kiyum of hiddur mitzva from the ma'aseh miztva - if so,
doesn't
> stopping to recite the bracha of she-asah nssim break the connection
between
> the birchas hadlakah and the kiyum of hiddur (see Shut R' Akiva Eiger
#13)?
> -Chaim
>
>

In Avodah 4#165, RWolpoe responded:
> When I run a Mincho Minyan and it's late, I switch to a heicho dedusho.
Some
people have argued with me, but I guess those expiernces color my thinking
about
making people wait on MY behalf for MY chumro <
Thanks for sharing some experiences with us, Richard, but surely you're not
suggesting that a full chazoras haSHaTZ is a personal chumra -- NB to
relative Avodah-list newcomers: the topic of "heicho k'dushah" has been
previously discussed -- or that it can be dispensed with in the same manner
as non-minyan-requiring hosafos.  Permit me to throw a bit of fuel on the
flame: when one does feel the need to schedule a date (or, for that matter,
any other event whose importance, relatively & objectively speaking, should
not even come close to approaching that of being part of a minyan) "right
after Shabbos," one deserves to be in the situation you described, which
will test one's priorities and provide a chance to recognize the mistake in
agreeing to such a schedule (and, as YGBechhofer might say, yaish kahn
mokom l'ha'arich on how we [yes, including me!] can improve our conduct in
the m'laveh-malkah area).

All the best (including wishes for an enjoyable Chanukah and a Gut Chodesh)
from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

1) Misinai - according to a lecture I attended - was the Maharil's terminology 
for this music.  He gave very stren warnings about tampering with nusach in 
general and has been a big influence on my hashkofo of preserving minhogim.

2) it is too late to co-opt Xtian musci because it's been done already.

Lewandowski's uv'tzeil kenofecho has a pasage taht's unmistakably parallel to 
Stille Nacht

Also realize that Martin Luther composed a hymn to the same melody as Maoz Tsur.

As far as who co-opted from whom the best theor yI hav heard is that all of teh 
above palgiarized shamelessly from folk tunes.

EG Aaron Copeland's "Appalachian Spring" is a direct descendant from theh Shaker
Hymn "'tis the gift to be Simple".  if you want to heear the 2 side by side 
listen to the TWA commercials where they actually play the 1st several bars 
back-to-back.

Also time to re-visit Hatikvo.  KAJ uses a variant meodly on Hannukah and Purim 
to v'olu moshi'im at the end of Shiras hayam. Although Imber is accused of 
ripping off Die Moldau, according to leged he actually ripped of a Romaina folk 
tune.  At leat one music historian on the Jewish Music list placed that same 
meolody to a publicly performed melody from 1608!

Which probably means Imber, Smetana and others ripped off a much earlier melody 
rather than ripping off from each other.  this MIGHT be true of Lwadnowski  who 
uses Gruber's Stille Nacht and also has passages from Il Nozze di Figaro in one 
of his lecho dodi's.  It is possible that Lewndowski ripped off the folk tune 
rather than directly from Mozart.

Similarly Lewndowski's dramatic Hashiveinu is allegedly the same as a passage 
from a JS Bach cantata.  This is from my predecssor's nephew, but I am fuzzy on 
the details.

Realize that co-opting music in general and Jewish music in particular could 
probably fill shelves.  It's a really fun topic

Gutn Hannukah
Rich wolpoe






______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________



Actually, the Kol Nidre/Avot/Aleinu is a motif universal to the High 
Holidays.  It appears, in one form or another in every single Jewish 
Community. (Cantor Bernard Beer, the dean of the Belz School of Jewish Music 
told me this, and reffered me to Idelsohn's Jewish ethno-musicology) In some 
Sephardic musical traditions, it is used in the Vidui (albeit in variated 
form).  Shearith Israel, which is Sephardic in the Amsterdam tradition used 
the motif in Aleinu as do the Ashkenazim.  If you check the writings of 
Cantor Macy Nulman, the former dean of the Cantorial Training Institute at 
YU, you will find a number of articles on the subject.  Or AYLC (ask your 
local chazan)
DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ, ESQ. SPECIALIZING IN ALL ASPECTS 
OF MATRIMONIAL, FAMILY AND COMMERCIAL LITIGATION FOR 
FURTHER INFORMATION INQUIRE AT:
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
----- Original Message -----
From: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer 
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 9:37 AM 
Subject: Re: co-opting music


I believe RSO was protesting that this seems to be an Ashkenaz-centric 
perspective.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659 
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel B. Schwartz <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET> 
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 8:33 AM 
Subject: Re: co-opting music


> As I stated in my previous post the MiSinai Melodies are:  Avot (for the 
> High Holidays)/Aleinu (for the high Holidays)/Kol Nidre (all of which are 
> based on the same motif), The Kadeishim and Avot from Tal and Geshem 
(which
> are alike), and the Kadish and Avot from Neliah.  Anyone who has 
worshipped
> in an Orthodox Schul at the times that the above were prayed, and heard a 
> chazan or ba'a' tefilah of even minimal competance has heard those tunes. 
> The prihibition on changing those melodies can be found in Orach Chaim 
'614
> (?), in the laws of Rosh Hashana and that period of the year.  The Ramah 
> states trthe prohibition clearly.  It is based on a ps'ak of the Maharil.

FWIW One shul in the Hartford area did a "takkono: to induce Minyan people.  
Those who had a Yahrtzeit were drafted to come the entire month or the entire 
week (me meory is fuzzy).  This was in the spirit of azov taazov imo, if I need 
you for my yahrtzeit then you need me for your yahrtzeirt, too.  As far as I 
know it was successful.

Rich Wolpoe  

I disagree with you 100%.

Let's leave it at that

Kol Tuv

Rich W.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: The Tenth Man 
Author:  "Michael Poppers" <MPoppers@kayescholer.com> at tcpgate
Date:    12/7/1999 11:18 AM




In Avodah 4#165, RWolpoe responded:
> When I run a Mincho Minyan and it's late, I switch to a heicho dedusho. 
Some
people have argued with me, but I guess those expiernces color my thinking 
about
making people wait on MY behalf for MY chumro <
Thanks for sharing some experiences with us, Richard, but surely you're not 
suggesting that a full chazoras haSHaTZ is a personal chumra -- NB to 
relative Avodah-list newcomers: the topic of "heicho k'dushah" has been 
previously discussed -- or that it can be dispensed with in the same manner 
as non-minyan-requiring hosafos.  Permit me to throw a bit of fuel on the 
flame: when one does feel the need to schedule a date (or, for that matter, 
any other event whose importance, relatively & objectively speaking, should 
not even come close to approaching that of being part of a minyan) "right 
after Shabbos," one deserves to be in the situation you described, which 
will test one's priorities and provide a chance to recognize the mistake in 
agreeing to such a schedule (and, as YGBechhofer might say, yaish kahn mokom 
l'ha'arich on how we [yes, including me!] can improve our conduct in the 
m'laveh-malkah area).

All the best (including wishes for an enjoyable Chanukah and a Gut Chodesh) 
from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

No I'm not.  It can be inferred from a Teshuvas hoRamabam however.

Rich wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Thanks for sharing some experiences with us, Richard, but surely you're not 
suggesting that a full chazoras haSHaTZ is a personal chumra -- 

M Poppers

Spicey foods do NOT exacerbate ulcers?!?!

What DOES excerbate mean?

Rich Wolpoe




______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Problem kids - ADD 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    12/6/1999 7:50 PM


I think medical science has decided that spicy foods don't cause ulcers after 
all, or even exacerbate them. Ulcers are caused by a histamine that can be 
counteracted by drugs, even if one pours on the hot sauce.


David Finch

From todays NY Times:


> Mourning, a Time When Words Often Fail
> By JANE E. BRODY
> rown-ups say the darnedest things when trying to comfort the bereaved.
> Consider the following, compiled from books on mourning and from personal
> experience: 
> To a 60-year-old recent widow: "Don't worry. You're young and attractive;
> you'll find someone else." 
> To a woman whose husband died of lung cancer: "You have to meet this man.
> His wife also died of lung cancer." 
> To a man whose 26-year-old daughter died of AIDS: "If she hadn't been that
> way, God wouldn't have struck her dead with AIDS" and "It was just a
> purification thing." 
> To a woman who suffered a miscarriage: "It is probably for the best." 
> To a woman whose 25-year-old son was killed by a drunken driver: "At least
> you have four other children." 
> To a man whose elderly mother died: "Oh, well, 79." 
> To a young man whose 19-year-old brother died of cancer: "I know how you
> must feel losing a brother." 
> And to the boy's mother: "I know it's not the same, but I really empathize
> because I lost my dog." 
> To a woman whose husband committed suicide: "Are you going to get a dog
> now?" 
> To Marta Felber, a counselor whose husband died of cancer: "Remember, it
> could be worse. He could have lingered longer." And, "Joe is waiting for
> you over there. Some day you will be with him." 
> Drawing on her training as a therapist and her experiences in self-healing
> after the death of her husband, Ms. Felber wrote "Grief Expressed: When a
> Mate Dies" (Life Words, 1997), which can serve as a road map to recovery
> for the bereaved as well as a guide to those who wish to express sympathy
> and offer comfort and support. (The book is available for $19.95 by
> calling the publisher toll free at 1-800-798-0100.) Her advice to the
> bereaved is to try to look beyond what people say and think instead about
> what they really mean. 
> What Not to Say 
> All too often, people are uncomfortable and insecure in talking to the
> bereaved and say things that come out sounding unsympathetic, like "Don't
> worry, you'll have another baby" to the mother of stillborn twins. Bob
> Buffington of Aurora, Colo., whose parents both died of strokes in their
> mid-70's, put it this way: "People say things without thinking. You
> forgive them, but you never forget." 
> Even the most well-meaning people sometimes say things that are hurtful,
> like criticizing the family's funeral arrangements, and leave the bereaved
> upset and angry instead of comforted. And then there are the people who
> are really thinking mostly of themselves, like those who asked Lianne
> Enderton, of Alberta in Canada, for her dead brother's golf clubs. 
> The latter inspired the title for an extraordinarily helpful little book
> by Lynn Kelly, a mother of three who was widowed at age 34: "Don't Ask for
> the Dead Man's Golf Clubs: Advice for Friends When Someone Dies" (Kelly
> Communications; available for $12.95 by calling (888) 401-6602 or (303)
> 740-8278). 
> Ms. Kelly interviewed survivors ages 17 to 90 throughout the United States
> and Canada who had lost husbands, wives, children, fathers, brothers,
> sisters, grandmothers and grandfathers, asking them what did and did not
> prove helpful during their mourning. From these interviews, she derived
> many useful suggestions, among them these: 
> *Don't judge the way people grieve. Those who don't cry can be just as
> devastated as those who can't stop crying. 
> *Don't assume the death was for the best, even if the person was old,
> deformed or very ill. "It's no blessing," said Jane Wisniewski of
> Scottsbluff, Neb. "Nor did it matter if he was healthy or sick. He was my
> dad." 
> *Don't assume that because there are other children, the pain is any less.
> "If I lost a leg, I would still miss that leg," said Gary Massaro of
> Denver. 
> *Don't say "I know how you feel." There is no knowing how a newly bereaved
> person feels. 
> *Don't make parallels with animals, as if the person could replace a lost
> spouse with a dog. 
> *Don't say, "Don't worry, you'll get married again" or "You'll have
> another baby" or "It's God's will." 
> Saying the Right Thing 
> Probably the most universally appreciated expression of sympathy is a hug
> and three words: "I'm so sorry." Ms. Felber said that in the beginning,
> when her greatest need was to talk, she was always grateful to find a good
> listener, someone not in a hurry who held her hand, did not interrupt or
> give advice and seemed comfortable when she said nothing or just cried. 
> Talking about the dead helps to keep them alive in the memories of the
> bereaved. Carole Crewdson of Brooklyn, whose husband, Frank, died last
> year, said, "Some people were afraid to mention Frank because they thought
> it would upset me." But what she most appreciated were the people "who
> told little stories, little personal connections about themselves and
> Frank." 
> "And the people who brought pictures," she added. "They made me feel
> good." 
> Marge Druckman of Potomac, Md., echoed these sentiments. "It's great to
> hear stories about the person who died," she said, "and to have friends
> let you know how much they liked and appreciated your loved one." 
> Don't forget that children also need to talk about the person who died.
> "It was the most help when people talked to us about her," said Sarah
> Minifie of Cambridge, Mass., whose mother died at 42. "It was less scary
> to think we would forget her because we were so young." 
> For those who did not know the deceased very well or at all, there is
> always "I'm sorry for your pain." Or these: "I'm here to help you in any
> way I can." "I'm told he was a dear man. I'm sure you're going to miss
> him." "No matter what the circumstances, when you lose a parent you loved,
> it hurts." 
> And as Ms. Kelly suggested: "Be honest. If you don't know what to say,
> don't be afraid to say so." Ms. Enderton of Alberta put it this way: "If
> you are not comfortable, tell the person: 'I've never experienced this
> before, and I don't know what to say. Tell me what to do.' " 
> If you can say nothing, that's all right too. Your very presence is an
> expression of sympathy. "I don't think it makes any difference what people
> say," said Diane Redmond of Memphis. "It is just the idea that they are
> there and you know they care." 
> 


------

Just a footnote.

At YU circa 1971 virutally all the mincho minyanim were schedule at 2:45 PM 
after shiur and they all did a heicho kedusho.  Secular classe beegan at 3:00 PM

R. Parness was challenged about making a full chazroas hashatz.  In order to 
accomidate this, he ended shiur at 2:30 PM instead of 2:45.

He COULD have coninteud learning until 2:45 and THEN make a chazoras hashatz nd 
insiste on our priorites being Torah and tefillo and to ignore the outcome that 
people might be late (because not everyone had class at 3:00PM)  He could have 
even insisted that we schedule our secular studies around his and mad e SURE 
that NO one EVER took a 3:00 class.

Apparently R. Parness taught us something else.  That in order to davn with 
proper yishuv daas and in order not to be matriach his talmidim, he was willing 
to sacrific 15 minutes a day of shiru - no small sacrifice indeed!

Wouldn't making people feel rushed cause them to be anxious and therefore 
challenge their kavono? Unless we are dealing with a minyan of Mal'ochim?!

Rich Wolpoe






______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: The Tenth Man 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    12/7/1999 11:18 AM




In Avodah 4#165, RWolpoe responded:
> When I run a Mincho Minyan and it's late, I switch to a heicho dedusho. 
Some
people have argued with me, but I guess those expiernces color my thinking 
about
making people wait on MY behalf for MY chumro <
Thanks for sharing some experiences with us, Richard, but surely you're not 
suggesting that a full chazoras haSHaTZ is a personal chumra -- NB to 
relative Avodah-list newcomers: the topic of "heicho k'dushah" has been 
previously discussed -- or that it can be dispensed with in the same manner 
as non-minyan-requiring hosafos.  Permit me to throw a bit of fuel on the 
flame: when one does feel the need to schedule a date (or, for that matter, 
any other event whose importance, relatively & objectively speaking, should 
not even come close to approaching that of being part of a minyan) "right 
after Shabbos," one deserves to be in the situation you described, which 
will test one's priorities and provide a chance to recognize the mistake in 
agreeing to such a schedule (and, as YGBechhofer might say, yaish kahn mokom 
l'ha'arich on how we [yes, including me!] can improve our conduct in the 
m'laveh-malkah area).

All the best (including wishes for an enjoyable Chanukah and a Gut Chodesh) 
from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

*********************


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