Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 125

Wednesday, November 10 1999

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:45:08 +0200
From: Hershel Ginsburg <ginzy@netvision.net.il>
Subject:
Re: Avodah V4 #123: JCT & Charedi College going


>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:29:12 +0200
>From: Hershel Ginsburg <ginzy@netvision.net.il>
>Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #122
>
>>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:06:13 -0500
>>From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@juno.com>
>>Subject: Charedi College going
>>
>>HG writes
>>>>>>>>
>>Someone at Shabbath Lunch mentioned that a Yeshiva MCHON LEV
>>is experimenting with half a day Limud and half a day technical learning
>>and that this is successful and attended by even Charedis
>>
>>Anyone know anything more about this
>>Russell
>>___________________________________________________________________
>
>a)  For a whole variety of reasons, mostly stemming from religious politics
>and PR, Machon Lev does **NOT** bill itself as (or possibly even consider
>itself) a yeshiva, even though they have a half day (or so) of high-level
>learning and have many of the other trappings of a yeshiva including a
>Kollel.
>
<snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip>
>
>g)  They also have a successful program for Russian immigrants and a high
>tech startup incubator.
>
>hg
>

A post-script to my previous posting.... Machon Lev (also known as the
Jerusalem College of Technology) has been around since the about
mid-1970's.  For more information consider a visit to their WWW site at:

                          http://www.jct.ac.il

hg



=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

  Hershel & Susan Ginsburg               Internet: ginzy@netvision.net.il
  P.O. Box 1058 / Rimon St. 27           Phone: 972-2-993-8134
  Efrat,  90435                          FAX:  972-2-993-8122
  Israel

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Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:44:52 -0800 (PST)
From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Etiquette Police


--- "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer" 
> > 
> 
> She is a Rabbanit. RSB woulld be appropriate. 
> 
> YGB

If I have offended Rabbanit Boubil be reffering to her
by her first name I sincerely apologize. As she always
signs her name in full in akll of her posts I just did
what I usually do and reffered to her by her first
name.  I try not to use initials when I reffer to
other people so that it will be clear who I am talking
about.  Some initials have become universally
regonizable such as RYGB so I lazily use them.  Also,
I usually sign my own name as HM strictly out of
laziness. 

So again, if I offended, it was not my intent, and I
apologize.

HM

=====

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Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:45:34 -0500
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
Subject:
titles


> From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
> Subject: Etiquette Police
> 
> R' Mechy Frankel recently wrote:
> 
> <<< The note from Mrs Boulbil (note to the etiquette police - you 
> guys need to come up with some appropriately courteous female honorific

> to complement the generous e-mail semikhas so freely bestowed on those 
> of the male persuasion) >>>
	Actually,  I have maintained all along that R' refers to,  as
appropriate,  Reb or Rav, without necessarily referencing semicha. 
Without harking back to that discussion,  can we be really avant-garde
and extend it to also mean, again as appropriate,  Rebitzen?  It need not
mean wife of a rabbi.  As that character in Alice in Wonderland (help me
here,  my limudei chol advocates<g>) said,  it means whatever we want it
to mean.

Gershon


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Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:54:23 -0800 (PST)
From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: titles


--- Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com> wrote:
  As that character in Alice in
> Wonderland (help me
> here,  my limudei chol advocates<g>) said,  it means
> whatever we want it
> to mean.


The Cheshire cat?

HM

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Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:07:55 -0500 (EST)
From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
Subject:
Re: titles


The Louis Carrol reference:
    "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it
    means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less."
    "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many
    different things."
    "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master--that's
    all."
			"Alice Through the Looking-Glass" (ch 6)
(Joys of web searches.)
    
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  9-Nov-99: Shelishi, Toldos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 66a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         


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Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:27:36 -0500
From: "Michael Poppers" <MPoppers@kayescholer.com>
Subject:
Re: cholam=choilem=cheilem=chaulem=melo-foom


In Avodah 4#120, YZirkind responded:
> I always thought that the reason we say three times Kodosh is to be
Yotzei
Kol Hadeios Kodoish Kodeish and Kodosh :-) <
....and the t'omim, too, emphasize the three(*) opportunities in these three
words to possibly say "oy"...and the next two words, a shaim, contain three
more opportunities(**)...and the last three words contain yet another three
opportunities :-).  Fellow numerologists, all together now: oy vey!

This break from serious discussion is sponsored by the cholam vowel and the
number three.  We now return you to your regularly scheduled Avodah.

Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ
-----
(*)  I might have fallen into the "Yekke trap" that ensnared HMaryles, but
I'd rather respond to YZirkind on *his* terms :-)
(**) Yes, I know one of 'em is the komatz-yud combo...so sue me.


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Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:29:43 -0500 (EST)
From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
Subject:
Re: Request not to Crack Jokes about G-d


In v4n119, RRW <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com> writes:
: What about jokes about Tzelem Elokim?
: Isn't making a joke about a Jew a toldo of making fun of Hashem as it is
: wrtten Bonim Atme Lashem?

Are you suggesting Jews in particular? I thought all b'nei Adam were banim
(Mitzrayim is explicitely called so), but we had the status of bechor (thereby
giving midah-kineged-midah in makkas bichoros, as well as explaining mamleches
kohanim).

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  9-Nov-99: Shelishi, Toldos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 66a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         


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Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:35:57 +0200
From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
Subject:
RE: Sin'at Chinum and Hachnassat Orchim.


>
> Now, I have to explain this to my daughter.  Anyone want to help?
>

First off, and I'm saying this as someone who *lived* in Meah Shearim for 7
years, and who knows these people well: Find out what *really* happened.
*All* the details. I have *never*, in 15 years of dealing with them, know
them to act in the manner you describe. Friends living there are not aware
of any "pogrom" that took place last Shabbat.

Your account doesn't match the Meah Shearim I know and lived in -- not
geographically (There are no gates to lock in ther faces), not Idealogically
(the signs about Zionism are generally refering to Secular Zionism), and
certainly not in terms of welcoming groups on Friday night.

For example: For years Baruch Levine, Jeff Sidel, Meyer Shuster, and others
would bring groups of students and tourists through Meah Shearim. We're
talking about 50-200 men AND women, the majority non-religious, many of the
men wearing cardboard kipot or bandannas on their heads.

They would bring these groups into Toldot Aharon, where they were made to
feel welcome. The chassidim, from the Rebbe down, all knew and respected the
holy avodah that Baruch, Jeff and Meyer were doing. They greeted them,
offered them tea, spoke to them about the neighborhood and about Torah.

Or Simchas Beis HaShueva at Toldos Aharn... *Everyone* -- thousands of
people -- show up every night, from non-religious up.

Toldot Aharon is the *most* extreme of the Meah Shearim groups. (yet when I
got married, the previous Rebbe made Sheva Brochos for us at all three
Shabbos Tisches).


Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274


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Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:44:18 +0200
From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
Subject:
RE: Sin'at Chinum and Hachnassat Orchim.


> The above excerpted story, is one of the most
> upsetting I have heard comming out from those
> quarters.  This is of course not the first story of
> it's kind.  There are many such stories in the holy
> city.  So, it doesn't come as too much of a shock.

Many, if not most of those stories, turn out not to be true... I *know* that
to be the case, having been present for incidents that were later reported
in the press in a *totally* different manner.

>
> However, without casting any aspersions on the
> veracity of Shoshana's account (I'm convinced that she
> is sincere),

I agree about *her* sincerity -- I just doubt the original report was
accurate.

> the story because even with the type of rancor that
> exists toward modernity in Meah Shearim (MS),

Given the number of computers, cell phones, etc in Meah Shearim, I'd qualify
that statement to "Modern Philosophies" of "Modern Lifestyles". They are
*not* Amish, despite the stereotype (and clothing).

>
> I am perplexed!
>
> Tzarich Iyun

Agreed -- I suspect a minor encounter was majorly blown out of proportion by
the girls (who went there with their head's filled with *stories* about how
terrible the MS people are...)

Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274


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Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:49:35 +0200
From: Hershel Ginsburg <ginzy@netvision.net.il>
Subject:
Re: Avodah V4 #124: Chozrim Lish'eilah


>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:13:49 -0800
>From: "Newman,Saul Z" <Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org>
>Subject: haaretz article on haredim
>
>see today's haaretz for article on the chareidi youth who come to Hallel,
>the group to aid 'chozrim lisheila'
>
>------------------------------

The organization's name is Hillel, not Hallel.

hg


.............................................................................
                             Hershel Ginsburg, Ph.D.
              Licensed Patent Attorney and Biotechnology Consultant
                          P.O. Box 1058 / Rimon St. 27
                                  Efrat, 90435
                                    Israel
              Phone: 972-2-993-8134        FAX: 972-2-993-8122
                         e-mail: ginzy@netvision.net.il
.............................................................................


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Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:48:43 +0200
From: Hershel Ginsburg <ginzy@netvision.net.il>
Subject:
Re: Avodah V4 #124: Kol Kevudah - a new twist


>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:52:19 +0000
>From: Chana/Heather Luntz <Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk>

>In message , Pawshas@aol.com writes

<snip snip snip snip>

>>Kol Kevodah, on the other hand, places an emphasis on actually being away
>>from the sight of others (Rashi Tehillim 45:14, and others there). This does
>>not necessarily refer to being indoors, but it does mean staying out of the
>>spotlight, as a general course of behavior (see Avodah Zarah 18a, Rashi
>>there
>>sv Dikdekah - it is clear that the problem is not with being in public,
>>it is
>>with being in the spotlight).

<snip snip snip snip>

>That is why I have focussed on the use of the pasuk in halacha - which
>is where it is used to specifically refer to women in contradistinction
>to men, and it seems to me there that the two concepts of kol kavuda and
>hatzneia leches are functionally quite different.
>
>>Mordechai Torczyner
>
>Regards
>
>Chana/Heather Luntz
>
A new twist on Kol Kevudah etc... the Ba"Datz of the Eidah Hareidit (one of
about half-dozen or so different and competing Ba"Datzim we have here)
issued a ps'ak today that women are forebidden from using cell phones in
public.  According to a radio interview with Yehuda Meshi-Zahav, the
self-styled(?) "Ka"MBatz (KeTzin MivTza'im or operations officer) the
reason given was that speaking on a cell phone in public, particularly when
it can be heard by others (there is a tendency to to speak louder on cell
phones when doing so on noisy streets), was at variance with the concept of
tzi'ut as exemplified in "Kol Kevudah etc..." (I am not making this up -- I
heard the interview myself and my Hebrew is quite good; I believe it also
appeared in one of the hariedi papers).

Needless to say, the general press and media have had a field day with this
one.

hg


.............................................................................
                             Hershel Ginsburg, Ph.D.
              Licensed Patent Attorney and Biotechnology Consultant
                          P.O. Box 1058 / Rimon St. 27
                                  Efrat, 90435
                                    Israel
              Phone: 972-2-993-8134        FAX: 972-2-993-8122
                         e-mail: ginzy@netvision.net.il
.............................................................................


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Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:48:47 EST
From: Yzkd@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Request not to Crack Jokes about G-d


> : What about jokes about Tzelem Elokim?
>  : Isn't making a joke about a Jew a toldo of making fun of Hashem as it is
>  : wrtten Bonim Atme Lashem?
>  
>  Are you suggesting Jews in particular? I thought all b'nei Adam were banim
>  (Mitzrayim is explicitely called so), but we had the status of bechor (
> thereby
>  giving midah-kineged-midah in makkas bichoros, as well as explaining 
> mamleches
>  kohanim).
>  
See Mforshim on the Mishne in Ovos Choviv Odom Shenroh Btzelem, and see Rashi 
Dvorim 21:23.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind


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Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:53:20 +0200
From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
Subject:
RE: Rav Moshe


>
> This is what Chasidim do.

This is a sweeping statement, and not one that (IMO) is accurate. Why only
Chasidim?

>  The key, then, is to
> try and find the posek that will rule in your favor.

Agreed. Your original post didn't mention picking *which* posek to go to,
just which *psak* to follow. There *is* a difference.

Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274


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Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:54:28 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject:
Re[2]: Request not to Crack Jokes about G-d


Clarification: I picked on Jews because lechol hadieos Bonim atem Lashem would 
minimally include Jews.  I did not mean to exlude others, just I left open the 
sofeik that others might or might not be "bonim".

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

In v4n119, RRW <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com> writes: 
: What about jokes about Tzelem Elokim?
: Isn't making a joke about a Jew a toldo of making fun of Hashem as it is 
: wrtten Bonim Atme Lashem?

Are you suggesting Jews in particular? I thought all b'nei Adam were banim 
(Mitzrayim is explicitely called so), but we had the status of bechor (thereby 
giving midah-kineged-midah in makkas bichoros, as well as explaining mamleches 
kohanim).

-mi


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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 16:07:23 PST
From: "Alan Davidson" <perzvi@hotmail.com>
Subject:
What is a godol?


While I seem to remember that the moderator called off this debate last 
time, the reason why there are few gedolim anybody can agree upon today 
include this PARTIAL list:

(1) The Orthodox community is becoming increasingly large and increasingly 
insular in terms of bochurim and/or baal teshuvah learning in only one type 
of yeshiva which provides at most a polemical understanding of other 
approaches/derechs.  Contrary to the beliefs of some, such "brainwashing" is 
not limited to lubavitch.

(2) We have an increasing number of baalei teshuvah who, while they
might be makpid on halachas and chumras still have a long way to go in the 
hashkafa department.

(3) The general level of yiras shomayim, emunas Hashem, and emunas gedolim 
(including the torah belief incumbent upon ALL Jews that Moshiach can arrive 
at any second) is much lower than was the case before World War II.

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Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 19:44:29 -0500
From: "Feldman, Mark" <MFeldman@CM-P.COM>
Subject:
Ha'aretz article on those who become non-observant


Anybody have any information on this excerpt from the article?
<<. [An organization] has been disseminating a pamphlet called "Da'at Emet"
[The Knowledge of Truth] that uncovers contradictions and faults in the
Torah and Talmud. One of the authors of the pamphlet, an ultra-Orthodox
yeshiva head who became non-observant, relates that he has already met three
newly secular youths who say that the pamphlet helped them decide to cross
over. >>

Kol tuv,
Moshe


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Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:58:23 -0800 (PST)
From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Subject:
RE: Rav Moshe vs.The Chassidic Rebbe


--- Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> >
> > This is what Chasidim do.
> 
> This is a sweeping statement, and not one that (IMO)
> is accurate. Why only
> Chasidim?

Because of the nature of the Chasid/Rebbe
relationship. By Chasidim, you only go to one person
for a shailo: the Rebbe.  Chasidism fosters and
promotes this attitude. The Rebbe has much more
authority and is much more all-encompassing in his
relationship with Chassidim.  For example.  If a
Skverer Chasid Has a Shaila, who's he going to
call?... The Rebbe.  But beyond that the Rebbe is
often asked advise beyond Halachic Shailos.  He is
asked for guidance in family matters, raising
children, business, and all other aspects of life.  He
usually enjoys a degree of reverence from his Chasidim
far beyond other branchs of Orthodox Judiasm have for
their leaders.  (There is no shopping for a Posek if a
Kula is needed.)  

This is not meant to impugn Chassidus.  It is just the
way it is.

But your implication is correct. Today, the type of
reverence once reserved for Rebbes of Chassidus has
crossed over into the  world of the Litvishe Yeshivos.
Many Roshei Yeshiva today have the same type of
adulation from their Talmidim  that Chassidic Rebbes
have. (A negative trend, in my book.)

HM
 


=====

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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 20:27:49 -0600
From: Steve Katz <katzco@sprintmail.com>
Subject:
Re: Conspicuous Consumption, Luxury, Etc.


HEAR!!  HEAR!!!
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> It seems that the root problem is the focus upon chitzoniyus.  This is a problem
> with shidduchim too.  I attribute this to a society highly influenced by Madison
> Avenue, although we can all find references to this throughout history.
>
> FWIW, my favorite chasunnos are the most lebbedikke chassunos - NOT the most
> opulent ones.  If I were a rich man, (apologies to fiddler) I would hire 50 of
> the most lebbedike Yeshiva guys to be mesameich choson v'kalo (and perhaps a
> like number on the distaff side, too).  IOW, even given a $100,000 budget, one
> could allocate the funds with a priority on the ruchniyus aspects of the wedding
> as opposed to the gashmiyus aspects.
>
> Rich Wolpoe


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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 19:13:36 PST
From: "Alan Davidson" <perzvi@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Tzavaat HaRivash/Tanya


Actually if one looks at Hayom Yom it is clear that Chabad (as is most of 
torah Judaism) is very much critical of abuse of the permissible -- not to 
start a new thread but look at the current Boro Park eruv debate.  Sure 
everything that exists exists for the glory of the aibishter but the flip 
side of the equation is this is the case only if used in not just a 
permissible way but in a manner which sanctifies  the aibishter.

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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 19:13:34 PST
From: "Alan Davidson" <perzvi@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Tzavaat HaRivash/Tanya


Actually if one looks at Hayom Yom it is clear that Chabad (as is most of 
torah Judaism) is very much critical of abuse of the permissible -- not to 
start a new thread but look at the current Boro Park eruv debate.  Sure 
everything that exists exists for the glory of the aibishter but the flip 
side of the equation is this is the case only if used in not just a 
permissible way but in a manner which sanctifies  the aibishter.

______________________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:19:10 +0200
From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toramada@netvision.net.il>
Subject:
Re: Avodah V4 #124


-----Original Message-----
From: Avodah <owner-avodah@aishdas.org>
To: avodah-digest@aishdas.org <avodah-digest@aishdas.org>
Date: יום שלישי 09 נובמבר 1999 22:41
Subject: Avodah V4 #124


>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:35:36 -0500
>From: j e rosenbaum <jerosenb@hcs.harvard.edu>
>Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #107
>
>On Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 01:40:22PM +0200, Carl M. Sherer wrote:
>> When I was a bochur, my Rebbe once complained in shiur that
>> they always had girls from a certain seminary (where his wife
>> taught) for Shabbos, and all the girls used to sit at the table like
>> queens. It goes without saying, that thereafter any guys who were
>> invited to the Rebbe's house for Shabbos insisted on clearing the
>> table and washing the dishes. After all, we're better than the girls,
>> right? :-)


When I got married, we were invited to a Shabbat evening meal at my
husband's rabbi.  They had ~7kids then, and when it came time to clean up,
the rabbi and the children got up to do all the cleaning -- and his wife
sat.  He told us (and the other couples/yeshiva bochurim) that as his wife
had toiled all day preparing the wonderful meals for Shabbat --- it was time
she sat and rested and he cleared the table.

It was a great experience, and I know that the vast majority of his students
continue his example -- the men get up to clear the table on Shabbat (with
the children).  It's always interesting to see the faces of male guests in
our home nowadays (18 years later) when they realize that clearing the table
on Shabbat is considered "men work" in our house.  It's just as interesting
when female guests try to tell my husband to sit down and they will clear
<g>.

>i suspect that the girls weren't so bad, but it was just a matter of
>contrasts.  sometimes i've been for shabbos at the same time as male
>guests and was treated as the mother's helper while the male guests
>weren't asked to do anything (and didn't do anything spontaneously
>either, and weren't involved in a mitzvah such as learning they would
>have been interrupted from).  given that this is the base case, the male
>guest who does one thing extra is seen as better than the female guest
>who does one thing less.


I always make it clear at the beginning of the meal that all male (and any
female who also wishes to) has to say a D'var Torah while I'm dishing up the
meal.    I enjoy hearing the Dvrei Torah, and the yeshivah bochurim usually
have something they can share.  To make it clear, if the guest is someone we
don't expect will have a prepared D'var Torah, we mention the custom
jokingly so he isn't embarrased if he doesn't think he can deliver a D'var
Torah, in which case my husband takes over and helps.

>also, if they were BTs, it might have been an issue of being afraid of
>treifing the entire kitchen somehow or something similarly irrational.
>when i first started going to others' for shabbos, i was afraid to do
>anything lest i do it wrong and offend everyone.
>
Even a non-BT can be afraid of treifing the kitchen.  While in most homes
the old rule-of-thumb that the fleishicks area is the one nearest the sink
and the stove -- it's not always true.  I have seen kitchens where red was
used for Milcheks.  So the best thing is "can I help?" and when the answer
is yes, pick up some dishes and ask where to put them down.

>usually, i can succeed in enlisting the nearest male guest not engaged
>in conversation in clearing the table, but usually they don't persist
>in doing so after one dish.
>
>this isn't unique to the frum world, btw.  at most dinners everywhere,
>there's the tendency of women to decide simultaneously to clear the table
>while the men sit oblivious to the fact that work needs to be done.  (when
>it's all women, those who didn't cook clean up.)  i have to admit that
>changing this tendency is my radical feminist agenda.


good luck!

>janet


Shoshana L. Boublil
Ramat Gan, Israel


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