Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 123

Tuesday, November 9 1999

• My Whereabouts
• The Kedusha of Trig
• One witness
• Tzniuth -- The 5th position on Limuday Chol
• Onaath Devarim for paying women less
• Re: Rav Moshe
• Re: Rav Moshe
• Re: "Kol Kevudah"
• Re: Avodah V4 #122
• Re: Rav Moshe
• Re: Doing mitzvoth for social pressures
• Re: Tzniuth -- The 5th position on Limuday Chol
• RE: Rav Moshe
• Re: Charedi College going
• Re: Shabbos Guests
• Rav Moshe
• How Constraints can Foster Creativity

As I mentioned I will be presenting a paper at the 3rd international
religion-science conference on >GENESIS 1 DESCRIBES THE
CREATION OF PROPHECY NOT THE CREATION OF THE WORLD<

I must spend an enoromous amount of time preparing footnotes...so
you may not hear that much from me in the next month or so (But I
will be back).

If you urgently want my opinion on something simply cc me as I
will be reading my regular mail


RE: Some recent harsh posts (on Trigonometry and Rav Moshe) I will
answer all expected responses when I am thru with my paper.

This paper by the way originated in discussions on the email group
Torah Forum which shows that an email group can give rise to
top notch ideas.

So keep up the limud

Russell
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Trig...a waist of time??

There is a beautiful law in OHALOTH about a dead
sheretz that lies underneath a log. Given that you
need an ohel (Tent) of dimensions a cubic tefach
to confer toomah (an actual cube not just volume)
how big does the log have to be in Diameter in order
to confer toomah thru its air space(under the log)

There there...how many of you have learned this
law? How many of you COULD Solve the problem
now that I have given it? How many of you have
even opened up OHALOTH?

You see...those who do not learn math end up
not learning OHALOTH (chas vchalilah) and who
knows what else that may lead to.

NO....I am not going to give the answer next week
If you want to know this halachah you will have
to go learn trig. And if you don't then

....on the day of Judgement you will be made to
learn at my footsteps as punishment (think about
it...it is worth it to escape now before it is too late)

Russell 
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Sender Baruch asks me about my
'women witness implies women poseks'

Several other people have asked

Maybe I should clarify myself.

Look if a man's wife serves him fleishig
than she is trusted (like a male adult not
like a child) to eg affirm that
--the meat has been salted
--bought from the proper place
---cooked without milk
etc.

Thus a woman vs a child is being that
can be trusted. Therefore if she was
trained she can equally be trusted to
state that eg this is her 7th day in 
nekiyiim, or that the SA says that
a seder should be made a certain way
or to say what to do if a spoon falls into
a fleitchig pot.

What a women can't do is act as a dayan
and that is a gzayrath hacasuv and nothing
to do with her intelligence.

Thus what I learn from one ayd is that
women are trusted (which is what you
need to pasken)
Russell
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Micah summarizes the 4 positions on Chol

>>>>>>>>
1- Limudei chol are treif;
2- L"C are a necessary evil for parnasah;
3- There is kedushah to earning a parnasah k'halachah, so L"C for a
parnasah
   has kedushah as well;
4- L"C in general, not just what is needed to earn income, has kedushah
as such
   knowledge is part of what it means to live biderech haTorah.
   4a vs. 4b would be whether (a) or not (b) we limit this idea to the
   sciences.
>>>>>>>>>>>

The people I have spoken to from Charedi to secular all agree that
the real reason people discourage or encourage people to go to
college is because of "what goes on there".

I don't really believe that anyone cares if someone takes an hour
or so and learns some trigonometry. I know that is what they
say...but the real issue is the immodesty that goes with
Limuday chol

I would like to see some more openness here...the real issue
is WHO we learn with not WHAT we learn. (This is true
when I speak to chardiites also)

Russell
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Rabbi Bechoeffer is of the opinion that the above holds 
with sources.

Rabbi B cites the SA who of course cites the Rambam who 
cites the Sifrah. But the Sifrah has common elements that
do not apply to discriminatory business practices.

Rav Hirsch introduces the idea of EMBARASSMENT=LACK
OF EXPECTATION (EMBARASS=LATE).

Hence the examples cited by the Rambam from the sifrah
---remind a person of his ancestry/former sins
HIS FORMER SINS ARE UNEXPECTED IN LIGHT OF 
CURRENT BEHAVIOR

--to tell someone who learns that he used to eat trayfoth
--DITTO

--To ask an opinion from someone who doesn't know
EG 'Should we keep the chulund on the fire'
FOR THE QUESTIONER EXPECTS AN ANSWER AND THIS
PERSON CANNOT PROVIDE IT

--To send eg someone who wants wheat to someone who
doesn't have it (AGAIN LACK OF EXPECTATION)


By contrast ALL STIPULATED MARKET PRACTICES
are valid. If women are traditionally given 20% less wages
then it is not ONAAH to continue this practice. The proper
remedy is to, as in this country, seek laws prohibiting such
discrimination.

In general I think we must be weary of classifying things
as ONAAH and act like it is all inclusive
ONAAH is like any other halachah and has specific
parameters.

Russell Hendel; Phd ASA http://www.shamash.org/rashi
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Fair Questions(Attached below)

You ignore the fact that I personally heard this story from the woman
it happened to, new the circumstances of the case and heard it
several years later (when any immediate hostility would have disappeared)

But I can go further...see the sforno on 'Moses saving the girls of
Midyan'
How did he Know who was right? asked the sforno. Answer...whether
right or wrong they shouldn't have been mishandled.

If a 6 week kallah comes to a Gadol and asks for a divorce she should
not be treated like a child...there are very few things that would make
her make such a request (Really...think about it). Telling her to wait
a little bit is no different than mugging her on the spot. In plain
English
Rav Moshe should have known better. I heard the whole story...she
did not faint because of his gentility.

In terms of Hilcoth Leshon Hara I would like to bring this to the table
I have no problems with treating rav Moshe with the same respect
as any other acharon.  

BUT...if we have problems like spousal abuse, the need for Yoatzoth
etc maybe we should start recognizing that gedolim sometimes take
their student's side and try and push women where they shouldn't.

I think this is a very serious issue and it transcends Rav Moshe.
We have to have ways of being able to talk about such things
and attacking gedolim when that happens


On Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:30:49 -0500 <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com> writes:
> Indeed this is quite an extrapolation!
> 
> R. Moshe might have gently and kindly made a suggestion and.the 
> woman might 
> STILL have fainted.
> 
> One possible reason:  her reverence for R. Moshe might have been so 
> great that 
> she saw his suggestion as tantamount a command.
> 
> In that sense the lack of social skills might have been R. Moshe's 
> Anaovo in 
> that he did not see his words as imposing as she might have heard 
> them.
> 
> Rich Wolpoe
> 
> 
> 
> ______________________________ Reply Separator 
> _________________________________
> Subject: Rav Moshe 
> Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
> Date:    11/8/1999 9:04 AM
> 
> 
> > > From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@juno.com	>
> 
> <<ANSWER
> ========
> I thought that obviuos Gershon...R Moshe Lacked Social skills...you 
> don't tell a 6 week Callah that wants a divorce to "try it a little 
> more"--
> the poor woman fainted....obviously the situation was not handled 
> correclty>>
> 	The fault,  dear Brutus...
> 
> Gershon
> 
> 

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In a message dated 11/9/99 12:54:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
rjhendel@juno.com writes:

> I think this is a very serious issue and it transcends Rav Moshe.
>  We have to have ways of being able to talk about such things
>  and attacking gedolim when that happens
>  
As this has been written in public I feel I must make a public Macho'oh 
against this style of self righteousness, and indignation to true Gedolim.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

Please note that the verse in Tehillim 45:14 states "Kol KevUdah" not
"Kol KevOdah..." 
		Aryeh

>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:06:13 -0500
>From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@juno.com>
>Subject: Charedi College going
>
>HG writes
>>>>>>>
> With a few exceptions, most **MALE**
>hareidi secular education does not go beyond the equivalent of a 6-7th
>grade level.
>>>>>>>>
>Someone at Shabbath Lunch mentioned that a Yeshiva MCHON LEV
>is experimenting with half a day Limud and half a day technical learning
>and that this is successful and attended by even Charedis
>
>Anyone know anything more about this
>Russell
>___________________________________________________________________

a)  For a whole variety of reasons, mostly stemming from religious politics
and PR, Machon Lev does **NOT** bill itself as (or possibly even consider
itself) a yeshiva, even though they have a half day (or so) of high-level
learning and have many of the other trappings of a yeshiva including a
Kollel.

b)  The secular studies departments are heavily oriented toward physics,
optical sciences, chemistry, math, engineering (EE and others), computer
sciences, but there are also some business oriented programs like
accounting. They also have an Institute of Jewish Business Ethics which
(among other things) sponsors public lectures / shei'urim (often in
English) on the topic.

c)  In a classification-obsessed Israel, the overwhelming bulk of the
students, especially in the main stream of the institution, are graduates
of the Yeshivot-Tichoniyot and are therefore practically by definition from
the Dati-L'eumi world.  The founders of the Machon and the underlying
spirit / philosophy is very much a Hirschian Torah 'Im Derech Eretz (as
opposed to YU's Torah U'Mada).

d)  A te'udat bagrut is required for entry with heavy emphasis on advanced
math, computers, English language, and the physical sciences.  Admission is
very very competitive.  Recently Machon Lev started its own Yeshiva
Tichonit, with a strong math/science orientation.  Admission there is also
very competitive.

e)  Their students serve in the army; some prior to attending the
institution, the others via a special deferment ("Atudah") program where
they first get their B.S.Eng., and then serve in the army for 5 years (2 as
full salaried officers) using their academic training, particularly in the
development of weapons systems, electronic warfare, signals intelligence
and the like.

f)  The Hareidi program is a specialized focussed 9 month or 1 year
intensive program to train ex-kolleits & other products of the Hareidi
yeshiva world in computer programming.  As part of the program the students
have to go through remedial training to give them the minimal math and
english skills needed to do the programming.  I don't know if the remedial
program is part of the 9 month / 1 year program or a separate pre-requisite
that they must go through.  There are other "Hareidi U." types of
institutions that specialize in teaching basic 7th & 8th grade and high
school math etc. to ex-kollelites in their 20's and 30's.

g)  They also have a successful program for Russian immigrants and a high
tech startup incubator.

hg


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

  Hershel & Susan Ginsburg               Internet: ginzy@netvision.net.il
  P.O. Box 1058 / Rimon St. 27           Phone: 972-2-993-8134
  Efrat,  90435                          FAX:  972-2-993-8122
  Israel

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

--- Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@juno.com> wrote:

> If a 6 week kallah comes to a Gadol and asks for a
> divorce she should
> not be treated like a child...there are very few
> things that would make
> her make such a request (Really...think about it).
> Telling her to wait
> a little bit is no different than mugging her on the
> spot. In plain
> English
> Rav Moshe should have known better. 

Iv'e not been following this thread and this post is
my intro to it, so, please bear with me. 

I think it is unconcionable to castigate a giant like
R. Moshe based on anecdotal information from one
person who may is nogeah b'davar, especially if she
was the one asking the shailo.  No one this list was
there.  No one heard from the other side, (as did R.
Moshe).  Even if everything happened as described,
this is an isolated case from which no infference
should be drawn.

R. Moshe was a gentle soul whose Kavod HaBrios was
unrivaled.  I doubt that anyone had more sensitivity
about these kinds of issues than he did. Anyone, for
example, who accuses him of not having compassion for
Agunos because of his well known position, just didn't
know him. All of his psokim were based on his clear
understanding of Halacha and not on emotion.

That doesn't mean he can't be critisized.  There are
many issues which he paskined on which are not
accepted. And there are many poskim that paskin other
than he does. One does not have to follow his psak if
there are legitimate poskim who disagree.  But one
thing is certain. He was one of the most
intellectually honest men of our time as well as one
of the most compassionate.

HM

=====

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--- Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@juno.com> wrote:
> But Carl, the most of the mitzvoth I can think of
> are done in public and with social pressures eg
> 
> --davening (in a minyan)

I daven with a minyan in order to enhance my Kavanah

> --giving donations (and getting plaques/ads)

Not always. I know some people who give way beyond the
high categories they are listed in banquet programs.
Also, there are always the "Anonymous" listings.

> --benching (mezuman)

I thought this halacha was independant of social
pressure. i.e. when there are three men, we bench with
a mezuman.

> --giving charity to shnorers (your example)

I usually try and hit them up for Tzedaka for my
causes.



> --treating our parents nicely (they talk about it)

That is certainly NOT why I do it.

> --and yes don't we all gossip about how we got
> this ethrog and so and so got this ethrog

Never.

HM

=====

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--- Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@juno.com> wrote:

> 
> The people I have spoken to from Charedi to secular
> all agree that
> the real reason people discourage or encourage
> people to go to
> college is because of "what goes on there".
> 
> I don't really believe that anyone cares if someone
> takes an hour
> or so and learns some trigonometry. I know that is
> what they
> say...but the real issue is the immodesty that goes
> with
> Limuday chol
> 
> I would like to see some more openness here...the
> real issue
> is WHO we learn with not WHAT we learn. (This is
> true
> when I speak to chardiites also)

How does that explain why there are no secular studies
in charedei High schools in Israel and that this trend
has already begun here in the US.

HM

=====

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> And there are many poskim that paskin other
> than he does. One does not have to follow his psak if
> there are legitimate poskim who disagree.  But one

Picking and choosing between Poskim? Based on *our* preferences? I thought
we were supposed to ask our LOR and then abide by *his* Psak.

Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

--- Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@juno.com> wrote:
> HG writes
> >>>>>>
>  With a few exceptions, most **MALE**
> hareidi secular education does not go beyond the
> equivalent of a 6-7th
> grade level.
> >>>>>>>
> Someone at Shabbath Lunch mentioned that a Yeshiva
> MCHON LEV
> is experimenting with half a day Limud and half a
> day technical learning
> and that this is successful and attended by even
> Charedis
> 
> Anyone know anything more about this
> Russell

From what I know about it , Macon Lev caters to
Americans.

The best known case of this type of school is Marava. 
This is a Yeshiva patterend after the American style
of Yeshiva which has Limudei Kodesh till about 3 or 4
in the PM and then LC.  I believe R. C P Scheinberg
origianlly gave his haskama on it but was pressured
(by R. Shach, I believe) to rescind his support.

I rest my case.

HM

=====

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On Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 02:44:07PM -0800, harry maryles wrote:
> While all of the above are possible, and perhaps some
> of the reasons why there are so many older (past 30)
> singles, that doesn't mean that when one is single one
> has to become a "ghost" of a human being whose only
> reason for living is marraige.  One can indeed  lead a
> fuller life w/o becoming "married" to
> "bachelor/bachelorette lifestyle.

there are also lots of things most people like to try, but want to 
do only for a short time: travelling around europe taking oral histories, 
doing kiruv in eastern europe, living on a kibbutz, doing development work
in central asia, backpacking the appalachian trail, etc.  

i lived in budapest for six months and would have liked to stay another
six (but i had to return to go back to my normal college), but past that 
my tolerance for air pollution and not speaking my native language would 
have been exhausted.  as it was, it was such a relief to return to normal
life and clean air.  

plus, there are tons of things one can do which are out of the ordinary 
while married with children.  chabad sends married couples to exotic places
all over the world to do kiruv.  many multi-national companies will 
send their employees abroad for a year or so.  

janet

Understood.  I might have missed this point - that you were personally familiar 
with the details and yasher koach for clarifying it.

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Rav Moshe 
Author:  Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@juno.com> at tcpgate


Fair Questions(Attached below)

You ignore the fact that I personally heard this story from the woman 
it happened to, new the circumstances of the case and heard it
several years later (when any immediate hostility would have disappeared)

Here is an illustration how various chukim ( or other laws or rules that appear 
to be contrary) may actually stimulate creativity.


This is forwarded by permission of Sara Metlzer who is a member of the GA-list. 
The concept of even arbitrary rules stimuulating creativity caught my eye.  
Imagine the greater degreee fo creativity associated with rules that might be by
"divine design" stimulating.  We have a potentially brand new ratoinale... 

Is it co-incidence that Jewish laws, rich in minutae, have spawned a highly 
creative culture able to break through the mental blocks that have stymied so 
many others?  I think not.  Read on.

Rich wolpoe


______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________
Subject: On the Humble Praxis of Word-Play 
Author:  Sara Melzer <melzer@HUMnet.UCLA.EDU> at tcpgate 

RE: Chronicle 187 on "the humble praxis of word-play"

<snip>



        A few years ago, I took a creative writing class. At each session, the
instructor gave us a different set of totally arbitrary constraints to work 
with. The idea was paradoxically that the constraints would help us and not 
hinder us. For example, once we had to write down a whole series of words we 
loved and then a set of words we hated. We then had to pass our own personal 
list to the person next to us. My neighbor gave me her list of words and 
then I had to write a poem using the words that my neighbor loved and hated 
? using ONLY HER WORDS. I groaned in anticipation of the hollow, formalistic 
results that I imagined. But I was shocked by how wonderful the poems turned 
out to be. In my poem, what was distinctively mine were the connections 
between the words because that was what established their meaning.To find 
ways to connect such a disparate set of words made me experience  words and 
their meanings in a totally new and expanded way. Seemingly ordinary words 
suddenly took on wild, new but appropriate metaphorical meanings that my 
conscious mind would have never even thought of. It is truly a tribute to 
the power of the human mind and language that we can create meaning in the 
strangest and most arbitrary of ways. Never was I more aware of the 
plasticity and also the force of words. And yet they were not simply words 
in the formal sense. I combined the words such that they became naturalized. 
Moreover, the words resonated in our minds with contexts already present in 
our culture which grounded them and conferred on them a much deeper meaning. 
Eric's Chronicle on Oulipo made me think back on this  in terms of a 
"postmodern creativity" which seemed exactly right.

*********************


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