Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 116

Sunday, November 7 1999

• Sh"utim on Junior Congregations
• Sin'at Chinum and Hachnassat Orchim.
• Re: Avodah V4 #107
• Re: Avodah V4 #107
• gedolim
• outside influence
• Re: Avodah V4 #114
• OFF TOPIC - Downtown Toronto
• Re: Rambam and asceticism
• Rambi Index of Articles in Jewish Studies
• Cite for Dr. Soloveitchik's article
• Re: outside influence--That's not the issue
• Re: Mandated role for women?
• Chassidus and TUM
• RE: Re: Was Rambam and Asceticism, Now Chassidim,
• RE: Was Rambam and Asceticism, Now Torah U'Madda
• Re: Rivash and pro-pleasure
• Re: Rambam and asceticism
• Re: Avodah V4 #114

I am looking for responsa (she'eilot u-teshuvot) related to the various
aspects of running "Junior congregations" (a group of minors praying
together without a bona fide minyan) - what ceremonies (e.g., Devarim
she-bi-kedushah; Hazarat ha-Shats; keriat ha-torah, Aliyot?) can be
performed and how; is a mechitsah required and how high; etc.
	Todah mei-rosh
		Aryeh Frimer

In recent digests there has been some discussion on the need for bringing
the various groups together and suggestions were made and discussed about
visiting shuls and inviting speakers.

I would like to share with you my daughter's experience this past Shabbat in
Meah Shearim.

For those who don't know, my eldest daughter is in 12 th grade in Ulpana
Kfar Pinnes (one of the best in the country).  This past week they had
Shavu'a Yerushalayim.  As part of the Shabbat experience they were supposed
to partake in a Tisch in Me'ah She'arim.

For whatever reason, the girls came together, 140 BA"H, with their teachers.
They had heard discussions earlier on Ahavat Yisrael, on going to Meah
She'arim to learn from them and to experience a different style of judaism.
These are all religious girls, wearing Tzniusdika clothes (most wear floor
length skirts) and as it was cold they all had long sleeves (i.e. sweaters).

As they entered Me'ah She'arim my daughter's first encounter was with a
little boy who ran after them shouting "Shiksa".   As they went through the
quarter, the various Chassiduyot locked their gates in their face.  She also
saw on the walls (above street level) signs that stated that zionist
religious were Amalekites.

As they walked down, quietly (they were told to be quiet so as not to
disturb anyone, and they did so), people started shouting at them to get
out, women shouted from the windows at them to leave, they saw boxes of
glass shards ready to be thrown, water bags of detergent were thrown at
them, and a girl got hit in the leg by a plastic bag of milk that was thrown
at her.   Their rabbi tried to reason with the incoming crowd, asking "will
someone please talk to me" but they found themselves in what my daughter
describes as a progrom.

The girls got scared, started running away and found their exit blocked by
another crowd of men (the women shouted impreciations from the windows and
threw things at them).  They cried and shouted that the other side is
blocked and finally they were let out of Me'ah Shearim.

Some men in the crowd knocked the rabbi's kippa off his head telling him to
take it off.  Only afterwards was it determined that the locals thought
these girls were tourists coming to stare at the Me'ah Shearim types.  I
still don't think this was reasonable behavior.

There were a few incidences of women who approached some of the girls,
telling the ones they saw to come in for a cup of tea, but the experience
which was intended to introduce the girls to Chassidim in their homes just
gave them the experience of being frightened, hurt and being called Shiksa
and Kofrim by their fellow jews.  My daughter said she heard one voice call
out that they could stay b/c they were jews.

Now, I have to explain this to my daughter.  Anyone want to help?

Shoshana L. Boublil,
Ramat Gan, Israel

> 
> Subject: Shabbos Guests
> 
> A long long time ago when I was a single sem girl, our sem used to set us up
> with families so we wouldn't have to call ourselves. Many of these would ask
> us to feel free to invite ourselves afterwards. If I already felt
> comfortable with them that was often enough to overcome my innate British
> reserve('what's she talking about?' I hear you ask)
> 
> Guidelines? Simply don't ask the girls about themselves. Ask them about
> their sems,  their teachers, their trips around Israel. Talk about
> yourselves to ease the tension and prompt them to volunteer information if
> they wish. Some girls like to help out, others would be horrified to be
> asked- your collective intuition help out there.  Your wife could compliment
> them on some aspect of their appearance-  that never fails to endear self
> conscious teenage girls who are probably wondering if they are presentable.
> 
On the other hand my wife and even more my kids get upset when they work
and the young woman doesn't. We still remember one person who when asked
responded that she works all week and didn't come for shabbat to do some
more work.

Eli Turkel

On 7 Nov 99, at 13:24, Eli Turkel wrote:

> > 
> > Subject: Shabbos Guests
> > 
> > A long long time ago when I was a single sem girl, our sem used to
> > set us up with families so we wouldn't have to call ourselves. Many
> > of these would ask us to feel free to invite ourselves afterwards.
> > If I already felt comfortable with them that was often enough to
> > overcome my innate British reserve('what's she talking about?' I
> > hear you ask)
> > 
> > Guidelines? Simply don't ask the girls about themselves. Ask them
> > about their sems,  their teachers, their trips around Israel. Talk
> > about yourselves to ease the tension and prompt them to volunteer
> > information if they wish. Some girls like to help out, others would
> > be horrified to be asked- your collective intuition help out there. 
> > Your wife could compliment them on some aspect of their appearance- 
> > that never fails to endear self conscious teenage girls who are
> > probably wondering if they are presentable.
> > 
> On the other hand my wife and even more my kids get upset when they
> work and the young woman doesn't. We still remember one person who
> when asked responded that she works all week and didn't come for
> shabbat to do some more work.

Funny story on this one....

When I was a bochur, my Rebbe once complained in shiur that 
they always had girls from a certain seminary (where his wife 
taught) for Shabbos, and all the girls used to sit at the table like 
queens. It goes without saying, that thereafter any guys who were 
invited to the Rebbe's house for Shabbos insisted on clearing the 
table and washing the dishes. After all, we're better than the girls, 
right? :-) 

A year and a half later, during Sheva Brachos for my wedding, my 
Rebbe's wife told me that she used to have to re-wash all the 
dishes that we washed.

Motto of the story - sometimes you're better off without the help 
(and not just if the guests are male. We've had seminary girls 
whose husbands are going to have to be martyrs to marry them...).

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

> doctrine of the virtue of Bittul Lubavitchers are disinclined to play the
> "I'm a Gadol" trumpet but there are many Gedolei Torah in Lubavitch who's
> Beliius, Amkus, and Charifus match those of ANY Gadol in the world today
> Here are some names (in no particular order). Let those who are truly
> qualified to do so judge for themselves. They will find these Gedolim
> very approachable.
> 
> This is only a partial list.
> 
By my count there were 13 gedolim on this count. I have no doubt all the people
on the list were talmidei chachamim, but gedolim?
Without any knowledge of these people I would assume that YU has several
rabbonim on a similar level. Lakewood probably more and several more in
Telshe and other out of town yeshivot. Adding the various brookyln yeshivot
one easily comes to over 50 gedolim. Plus another chassidic gedolim and we have
100 gedolim in America. Israel easily has twice as many including sefardim but
others in other countries. Hence, if Lubavitch has (in a partial list) 13 gedolim
there are easily 300-500 gedolim in the world.

Somehow my concept of a gadol is much more limited 5-10 possibly 20 but hundreds?

Eli Turkel

> - --- david.nadoff@bfkpn.com wrote:
> > I can only urge you to study sefer Chasidim with an open mind and the
> > comments of  R' Reuven Margolios, who gives m'koros in chazal (often
> > quite obscure ones) for virtually everything R' Yehuda Hachasid has to say
> > If you do, I'm not sure you'll find Dr. S. quite so convincing anymore. In
> > addition, if Dr. S. were right, don't you think a boki b'kol haTora kulo 
> > like Chida or R' Eliezer Papo (both of whom composed extensive works on 
> > Sefer Chasidim) would have noticed that something was amiss when
> > they read statements in Sefer Chasidim that don't appear anywhere in the
> > mesora, even if they "forgot" about R' Yehuda Hachasid's supposed
> > convictions regarding extra-masoratic requirements? Fianlly, that R' 
> > Yehuda Hachasid wasn't accepted by his contemporaries is not dispositive
> > of anything. We can observe the same phenomenon with Ramchal and
> > others who have our alliegance today.
> 
Moshe responds

> It's not an issue of being baki (Dr. S is no slouch! and I'm sure
> looked at the standard commentaries on Sefer Chasidim).  The issue is
> whether one reads the text with a view towards understanding the
> historical context.  Dr. S did that (and very cleverly, I might add)
> and most achronim do not.  Once you see his analysis, it's pretty
> convincing.  I highly recommend the article (printed in the AJS
> Review, I think).
> 
I don't think that it is an issue of apperaing in Chazal at all. I feel
it is clear that within Chazal there were divergent attitudes towards
ascetism, eg is the one who makes a neder "choteh". Different eras
and places chose to stress one aspect at the expense of others, neither
side invented anything. What most historians claim is that these tendecies
were influenced (not 100% determined) by what what went on in the outside
world. Ascetic ideas in Germany may have influenced the Hasidei Ashkenaz
to emphasize the pre-existing values of ascetism in the Talmud. On the
other hand Rambam influenced by Greek and Arabic philosophy down played
these ideas.

I understand that Rav Avraham ben haRambam was an ascetic and also a
major follower of his father's philosophy. Hence, the two don't seem to
be mutually exclusive.

Kol Tuv,
Eli Turkel

> 
> HM
> I agree.  that's why successor lines in Yeshivos often
> follow the son in law rather than the son. The Yeshiva
> system is therefore more merit based.  

Agreed. However, it is still a question of being in the right
place at the right time. Many of us know "gedolim" who were not
recognized because they were not related to anyone.
In many yeshivot it is hard to get a position if one is not related.

Eli Turkel

I love last minute trips....

If anyone can give me a crash course on downtown restaurants and 
minyanim (including Shachris) in Toronto I would greatly appreciate 
it. I am staying in the area of the Toronto Dominion Centre 
(hopefully not for Shabbos).

Please answer privately in the next 6-8 hours or so.

Many thanks.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Well, I was mistaken about physicality being from Tzavaas haRivash. 
However, as has been noted before, ThR does differ from Chabad
(and, incidentally, the Nefesh haChayim) on various points, e.g.,
the relative priorities of learning and prayer.

The Shivhei haBesht is paragraph 61. (tr. D. Ben Amos & J. Mintz, p.
80-81).

As for the Izbicer's point, I don't see how it is relevant to us
bizman hazeh.  We aren't on the level where vinegar burns for us 
as if it were oil.  So tivi explanations are what we can deal 
with.

I cannot agree with you on:

> but, a Conservative
> Rabbi nonetheless, to whom we cannot grant any ne'omonus, nor grant
> bias-neutral status

since it is not on any issue of halacha for which he is being cited
nor on Conservative vs. Orthodox relations, but rather for his expertise
in history.  Is it anyone's fault that many of the people who are writing
on Chasidic history in English (other than heavily biased stuff coming
out of Lubavitch, and I include Dr. Mindel in this characterization)
are disciples of Heschel?  We cannot grant bias-neutral status to anyone
(as has become obvious in the RW vs LW media thread).

I still view it as a double standard that you can quote Conservative
rabbis on their (non-halacha-related) field of expertise, but I cannot.

>We are
>still left without any reliable source for an alleged Chassidic pro-pleasure
>school of thought.

False.  I gave the story, I gave the citation.  You are content to cite
your own book, which is not exactly widely owned, and tell people to look
it up.  Yet when I cite a not-widely-owned book, you complain.  Double
standards again.

I can't stand this.  I get complaints from the listmanager about not
waiting till I get home to post things.  So when I do, I get snarked
at by the former listmanager for posting in his own style.

If you can cite Conservative rabbis on their fields of non-halachic
expertise, if you can cite page numbers of books that are not necessarily
easily accessible to the rest of the list, it must be an acceptable
posting style.

A point my wife told me I should have made in my previous "Yes I'm
furious" post:

  Why am I conducting this exchange in public?  Because last time I
  tried to call you on a tactical point in private, you ignored me.

So as to leave this on a positive note:

I have great respect for your knowledge and erudition, as well as your
ancestry.  I am quite happy to be corrected on factual/logical errors,
as on the Tzavaas haRivash.

       Jonathan Baker     |  Marches-wan, marches-two,
       jjbaker@panix.com  |  March the months all through and through

This is available on the Net by going to
http://www.uni-duisburg.de/FB1/JStudien/RAMBI.htm#Access

(You go via Telnet into Hebrew University's system.)

Kol tuv,
Moshe

I was asked for the cite.  It is:

Haym Soloveitchik
Three Themes in the Sefer Chasidim
AJS Review v1 1976

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

--- Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il> wrote:
> Moshe responds
> 
> > It's not an issue of being baki (Dr. S is no slouch! and I'm sure
> > looked at the standard commentaries on Sefer Chasidim).  The
> issue is
> > whether one reads the text with a view towards understanding the
> > historical context.  Dr. S did that (and very cleverly, I might
> add)
> > and most achronim do not.  Once you see his analysis, it's pretty
> > convincing.  I highly recommend the article (printed in the AJS
> > Review, I think).
> > 
<snip>
> What most historians claim is that these
> tendecies
> were influenced (not 100% determined) by what what went on in the
> outside
> world. Ascetic ideas in Germany may have influenced the Hasidei
> Ashkenaz
> to emphasize the pre-existing values of ascetism in the Talmud. 

You may have missed what I had written about Dr. S's article (and may
have been misled by David Nadoff's characterization of what I had
written).  I was *not* referring to Hasidei Ashkenaz being influenced
by ascetic ideas current in Germany.  In fact, as I recall, Dr. S
merely alludes to that in the article as a possibility.  His main
point was that R. Yehudah Hachasid believed that in addition to the
mesorah of chazal as to what Hashem wants of us, there are
other--*new*--requirements that we must discover.  RYH set about
discovering these new requirements.  In his time, he was rejected by
the rishonim; many of the ba'alei Hatosfot actually made fun of him
and his talmidim.  Only a number of generations after his death did
his work become popular, after it was forgotten that the work was
motivated by the concept of new requirements.

My point in the paragraph you quoted is that a very knowledgeable
achron may make the assumption that RYH had a basis in the mesorah
and then set out to find the makor.  Dr. S did not make that a priori
assumption and therefore came to a different conclusion.

We are probably familiar with perushim on the Yerushalmi who assumed
that the Yerushalmi is similar to the Bavli and therefore explained a
Yerushalmi based on the parallel sugya in the Bavli even where it is
pretty clear that the Yerushalmi diverges from the Bavli.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

 
> Because of the distinction between focus and limitation, I don't understand
> how RYBlau reaches his conclusion. The fact that they can, but needn't, do
> MASG (even w/out RSRH's chiddush) would seem to indicate that these mitzvos
> have value for them but aren't the core of their avodah -- exactly the point
> he's refuting. Please explain.

i believe rabbi blau's point is that both masg -and- marriage/children are
optional, but allowed.

to bring in this outside/inside distinction is beside the point, as
primary representatives of each category are optional for women.  
marriage/children are even the heart of the "inside" role in a way
that the optional ritual mitzvot are not with respect the "outside" role:
that is, it is difficult to conceive of an "inside" role which does not
include marriage and children, but it is easy to conceive of an outside
role which does not include shema and tefillin.

janet

It strikes me as a bit paradoxical that you can say eating, drinking, and 
otherwise engaging in 'life' can be turned into a form of avodah under the 
rubric of Chassidus, but reading a good book cannot.  The distinction 
being....?

-Chaim

From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" 
> You see, R' Lamm cannot determine, merely by his own 
> pronouncement, that
> this is a Davar ha'Reshus that one should attempt to elevate. 
> The Chassidc
> model is based on the assumption that there are certain cheftzas that
> possess nitzotzos of kedusha that can be elevated by use 
> le'shem shomayim.
> The Chassidic model is not applied to certain processes nor 
> to certain types
> of cheftzas (davar assur. assur, in Chassidus, means that the 
> nitzotzos are
> too tied up - the translation of the Aramaic word assur - to 
> be elevated in
> our world. pig is an example). R' Lamm needs to prove, to use 
> the Chassidic
> model, that the model applies here. I do not believe he ever did.

I'm no expert on these matters, but didn't Rav Kook believe that one can
elevate secular studies?

In other words, the fact that Chassidim--who for other reasons may have been
against involvement in the secular world--did not give any hint as to the
application of the model to secular studies should not bias us against
applying the model.  Secular study, which is in essence the study of
Hashem's creation (certainly in the case of the "hard sciences"; in the case
of humanities, it is the study of Hashem's creations' creation), is
undoubtedly different from pig, and the fact that its value has been
affirmed by Greats from the Vilna Gaon to Rav Kook should give us a certain
measure of confidence that the Chassidic model should be applicable.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" 
>[Moshe:]
> I note the fact that in a subsequent issue, RYGB wrote a 
> letter to the
> > editor taking issue with R. Schiller with regard to the 
> joys of baseball,
> > noting that many highschoolers are more enthralled with 
> sports than with
> > learning.  R. Schiller answered that this was an abuse but did not
> undermine
> > the essence of the argument that Hashem in His beneficence grants us
> > pleasures.  I wonder whether RYGB was satisfied with R. Schiller's
> response.
> > Maybe he could write our Avodah list what he would have written in
> response
> > to R. Schiller.
> >
> [RYGB:]
> I thought that R' Schiller essentially conceded.
> 

Everyone sees things his own way.  My understanding was that R. Schiller was
showing how pleasures had a certain value when viewed in the context of
Avodat Hashem, and gave the example of enjoying spectator sports.  RYGB
wrote in saying that this is subject to abuse, implying (though he did not
state it) that the pleasure of spectator sports is incompatible with Avodat
Hashem.  R. Schiller replied that the existence of abuse does not undermine
the essence of the argument.

I might add that every good thing can be abused, if taken to an extreme.
This is because we have many obligations in this world--if one performs one
mitzvah excessively to the exclusion of others, this is abusive.

Pleasure is more subject to abuse (especially in the case of high-schoolers,
who may enjoy the Bulls much more than a blatt gemara; personally, I was
never much of a sports fan).  In fact, this may be why Avodah she'begashmiut
seems to have been abandoned by Chassidut; it wasn't *wrong*, just overly
abused.  This may be a reason to set up more boundaries with regard to
pleasure than with regard to other positive things, and perhaps a reason to
abandon the endeavor entirely.  But this doesn't invalidate the appreciation
of pleasure as a form of Avodat Hashem, if done properly.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

<< I have been learning Tzavo'as Ha'Rivash since my bar mitzva (1975). Perhaps
 you noticed that the standard edition is publsihed by "Kehos" (Chabad) and
 was edited by my Uncle Immanuel. I took out one of my copies Erev Shabbos to
 see if I could find the pro-pleasure philosophy espoused therein. >>

I'm not following this whole discussion, but l'gabai this prat I would add 1) 
The Rivash espouses the concept of ha'alas hanitzozos (#109) - "ki zeh klal 
gadol shekol davar she'ha-adam lovesh oh ochel oh mishtamesh b'kli hu neheneh 
me-hachiyus sheb'oso davar...v'yesh sham nitzitzos kedoshos hashayachim 
l'shoresh nishmaso."  (#141) - "Zeh klal gadol b'chol mah sheyesh ba'olam 
yesh nitzotzim kedoshim, ain davar reik meiha-nitzotzim, afilu eitzim 
v'avanim..."  [afilu Shakespeare?]  He goes on to say even an aveirah has 
nitzotzos which can be elevated through the process of tshuvah.  2) Man can 
engage G-d through this process (#94) 'bcholl derachecha de'eiyu...lashon 
chibur...afilu b'devarim gashmi'im sheoseh'.  3) Gashmiyus is never an end 
unto itself but must always be seen in the context as a means toward greater 
avodah - "lo yistakel klal b'inyanei olam hazeh v'lo yachshov bahem klal rak 
yistadel b'chol inyanim k'dei l'hafrid es atzmo me'ha-gashmiyus..."(#5).  Far 
from pro-pleasure sounding to me!

It remains unclear to me whether ha'alas hanitzotzos (to Rivash) is a process 
borne of necessity, i.e. when one if forced to engage in the daily activities 
of life one should bear in mind that this too can be elevated into avodah, or 
is the process a command, i.e. one should actively engage in worldly pursuits 
to attain ha'alas hanitzotzos.  

(Just as an aside, I'm using the Kehos edition as well...does being related 
to Uncle Immanuel through marraige count? : - )

-Chaim

On Sun, 7 Nov 1999, Jonathan J. Baker wrote:

> Well, I was mistaken about physicality being from Tzavaas haRivash. 
> However, as has been noted before, ThR does differ from Chabad
> (and, incidentally, the Nefesh haChayim) on various points, e.g.,
> the relative priorities of learning and prayer.
> 
> The Shivhei haBesht is paragraph 61. (tr. D. Ben Amos & J. Mintz, p.
> 80-81).
>

Now, let us ask that someone who has a Shivcheii ha"best convey t osu what
it says there, with three caveats:

1. The Shivchei Ha'Besht, even by Chassidim, is not seen as accurate. To
it was first applied, I believe, the famous clarification: If you do not
believe everything it says there could have happened, you are an apikores;
if you beliieve they did happen, you are a fool.

2. It is mostly ma'asim, not ideological or pilosophical statements.

3. As I heard from one of my Rabbeim, anyone who bases a philosophy on
asingle *Ma'amar Chazal* is dishonest and incorrect. One can derive almost
any possible thing form an isolated Chazal. Patterns need be established.
 
> As for the Izbicer's point, I don't see how it is relevant to us
> bizman hazeh.  We aren't on the level where vinegar burns for us 
> as if it were oil.  So tivi explanations are what we can deal 
> with.
> 

The Izhbitzer's point is not relevant to whether you or I agree on it. It
is his outlook, not mine or yours.

> since it is not on any issue of halacha for which he is being cited
> nor on Conservative vs. Orthodox relations, but rather for his expertise
> in history.  Is it anyone's fault that many of the people who are writing
> on Chasidic history in English (other than heavily biased stuff coming
> out of Lubavitch, and I include Dr. Mindel in this characterization)
> are disciples of Heschel?  We cannot grant bias-neutral status to anyone
> (as has become obvious in the RW vs LW media thread).
> 

Still cannot accept the premise. We all know that the "Historians" 
(Graetz, Dubnov et al) were heavily biased against Chassidim.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

--- Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il> wrote:
> > 
> > HM
> > I agree.  that's why successor lines in Yeshivos
> often
> > follow the son in law rather than the son. The
> Yeshiva
> > system is therefore more merit based.  
> 
> Agreed. However, it is still a question of being in
> the right
> place at the right time. Many of us know "gedolim"
> who were not
> recognized because they were not related to anyone.
> In many yeshivot it is hard to get a position if one
> is not related.
> 
> Eli Turkel

No one ever said life was fair.  

It occurs to me, however, that all those
Mashgichim/Shadchanim who advise budding Talmidei
Chachamim about finding a wealthy Bal Habyis/father in
law should instead be advising them to be looking for
a Bas Talmid Chacham.

HM 


=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

*********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]