Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 070

Wednesday, October 27 1999

• Re: earning power
• Re: Jewish Observer
• Re: Bnei Torah and Tolerance
• equal pay
• Re: what else (fwd)
• what else (fwd)
• Re: earning power
• [none]
• Re: Daat Tora
• NCSY
• Daas Torah / Tolerance
• Orthodox Caucus
• Re: kidra chaysa
• debate about Yoatzot
• Re: anonymous postings
• re: PAI and Giyus Banos
• scholars in residence
• Re: earning power
• Ivris
• Re: Orthodox Caucus
• Re: scholars in residence

===================================================
Mrs. Gila Atwood
WFrom: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 11:18 AM
Subject: earning power


> Micha writes
> >
> > I think we're going to be facing a real crisis sometime between now and
> > the 5780 school year.
>
 I think the situation in Israel is worse than in the US. In Israel most
> litvishe yeshiva boys end up in a kollel for the many years and their
income
> depned on the latest coalition agreement.

Yep-  it's tough.  At least the girls can get a fine Beis Yaakov education
up to high school subsidized by the government, and the frum kindergarten
networks are excellent in many ways.
It's tougher when the get to marriageable age and the parents are expected
to pay for half an apartment. Unless it rains diamonds in the next few years
the situation will fall apart from bankruptcy.  More and more families are
dependent on welfare to some extent.

The Toldos Aharon and many other chassidic groups such as Breslov, Lubavich
promote a combination of parnasa and Torah study. The boys MUST have skills.
More and more parents are crying out and seeing the need- vocational
yeshivas are blossoming- and I think we're not too far from the day when
even the hardest core litvishe yeshivishe crowds will not see the wageearner
as "nebach, he couldn't sit and learn".  Yes, I agree with the poster who
said that yeshivas should be for yechidim-  but even these academic elite
should not, chalila take the attitude that their avodah is the only one
worth mentioning.

we should live to see the day!    Gila Atwood
>

I think that JO has some very good articles
> despite its warts.  Jewish Action is pretty good.  What else,  exactly,
> is there?  Shall we rely on the New York Times?  Or the supermarket
> tabloids?
>
Any takes on the English "HaModiah"?  More chassidic input than Yated.    G.
Atwood.

Subject: Bnei Torah and Tolerance

Shalom HM!

I've encountered problems and attitudes such as the ones you mention and
they grieve me deeply.  It seems to me that rather than a holier than thou
position,  (though I don't deny that it does exist) there is a strong ghetto
building mentality based partly on religious commitment and conviction and
partly on fear.  There is a powerful drive to exclude influences from the
non Jewish world at large which could compromise Torah values and Torah
observance. Sometimes this revulsion of negative influences reaches
ludicrous extremes.
Take for example, denim.  You may laugh, but denim is officially off limits
for girls and women in charedi circles in Jerusalem.  Why? Because it's
"rechovi"- a "street fashion". In other words, denim represents street
culture,  "hanging out" and mixing with guys before marriage, etc etc etc.
Truth is, (as heard from Rabbi Scheinberg's daughter, Rebbetzin Altusky,
it's not so much the denim itself but the fact that some denim skirt styles
are "rechovi"-  since it's so complicated to give guidelines to exclude
these particular styles, all denim skirts have been condemned.  Rebbetzin
Altusky is keeping her Reeboks in the closet till it becomes acceptable for
a Rebbetzin to wear Reeboks in Jerusalem.  She was laughing too. ) This is
one trivial example, but there are many more I could give.
At the root there's more fear  than hatred and condemnation in the RW,
though I agree this is sometimes expressed in very unpleasant terms.  Not
fear per se of MO or Reform and conservative or Jewish Renewal, but fear of
threat of contamination and compromise of sacred values. These fears DO have
valid foundations but I personally don't think that fear that leads to knee
jerk rejection of let's say, dinosaur printed pillowcases, is healthy for us
at all. (we were happy to receive the offensive linens) Certainly wise
caution, discrimination and understanding is necessary to bring us to a
state of achdus and true avodah.

Just one little question. If Judaism is not monolithic, how would you define
it?  On what do we base our avodas Hashem- a variety of cultural and ethical
options throughout our history or a developed system of behaviour?  We have
in actual fact a range of choices of general derech and a infinitely wide
range of personal avoda-  "RW" is far from monolithic-  I would not deny
problems. We can testify that there are plenty of individuals trying to stem
the tide-  but I agree, there is a strong force of "frumthink"- something we
are encountering quite intensely as we search for an appropriate high school
for our oldest daughter.

Regards,  G.Atwood.

Rabbi Aaron Levine has discussed this interface between Halakha and
economics at length. (I don't recall in which of his books, but at least
one article appeared in Tradition, if I remember correctly.)

I forwarded him your mail, and have left it to his discretion.

KT!

----- Original Message -----
From: Mrs. Gila Atwood <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: what else (fwd)


>
> ===================================================
> Mrs. Gila Atwood
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
> To: Highlevel Torah Discussion Group <avodah@aishdas.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 12:10 AM
> Subject: Re: what else (fwd)
>
>
> > This will stir the pot here (and not the cholent one), but since this
> > is the topic that will not end, I am throwing in this anonymous forward.
> >
> Can I have the e mail of this anonymous poster, offline please?
>
> Gila A.
>
>

RYGB:>>Indeed many people have been reared in a more relaxed enviornment when 
it comes to various forms of "platonic" phsysical contact.  It's a sign of the 
times and a cultural thing.  But I don't think that simply because a couple held
hands or even kissed eachother before marriage, they would engage in sexual 
contact or activity during a wifes' menses after marriage. (Remember that old 
Yetzre Hara is had to totally overcome, but can be limited in it's scope of 
influence)  In fact I know that to be the case in more marriages than I can 
count.<<

FWIW.., a friend of mine who isa traditional  - but not strictly frum - 
psychologist, remarked to me that after marriage, many couples get a lot more 
serious about ThM issues.  I think it goes like this, you get a Yom Kippur-like 
kaporo under the chupa, and that is seen as wiping the slate clean - especially 
regarding pre-marital negia.  However, once the 2nd chance starts ticking, the 
married couple "buckles down" and takes Nida more seriously. 

(To use a sports analogy, the pre-season is over and the games start to count!) 

I guess one might ask, is yom chasuno mechaper if one says,  I'll sin and and 
yom hachasuno will be mechaper"?!

Rich Wolpoe

In a message dated 10/27/99 10:44:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gatwood@netvision.net.il writes:

<< 
 The Toldos Aharon and many other chassidic groups such as Breslov, Lubavich
 promote a combination of parnasa and Torah study. The boys MUST have skills.
 More and more parents are crying out and seeing the need- vocational
 yeshivas are blossoming- and I think we're not too far from the day when
 even the hardest core litvishe yeshivishe crowds will not see the wageearner
 as "nebach, he couldn't sit and learn".  Yes, I agree with the poster who
 said that yeshivas should be for yechidim-  but even these academic elite
 should not, chalila take the attitude that their avodah is the only one
 worth mentioning.
 
 we should live to see the day!    Gila Atwood >>
Amen, ken yehi ratzon (except that I would say that the elite should not 
necessarily be strictly defined on academic strength)

Kol Tuv
Joel Rich

Subject: Daat Torah

I recently stated that I was against Daat Torah/emunat chachamim. 
I wish to qualify and clarify that statement.

I obviously am not against the deah of the Torah nor against any seforim
with the title Daat torah. Similarly I am not against the trust of rabbis.
These words have become catchwords for some concepts. I took it
for granted that people on this list knew these words.
I believe these ideas to be of relatively recent origin and to have 
caused harm.
The way I understand Daat Torah it consists of the following

1. There is one "correct" way to view an issue especially a hashkafa issue.
2. That "correct" way is decided by the "gedolim" and they have no need
   to justify or defend their viewpoint. It belongs to the "5th" part
   of shulchan Arukh that they know simply because they are gedolim
   and only "proper gedolim" can decide.
3. The public pronouncements of these "gedolim" are binding on everyone
   whether they asked or not.

My problem with this are (in short, I wrote an extended article on it).

1. Historically, it is clear that each community was governed by the LOR
   and not by gedolim. There exist numerous responsa of rabbis supporting
their independence. Actions like cherem Rabbenu Gershon, Rabbenu Tam etc.
were really instituted by meetings of all the local communities.
They are named after famous people because they were leaders but they
were never issued by individual people, no matter how great.

I highly recommend the biography of Rav Breuer. One point made in the book
was that Rav Breuer was the posek for his community and he didn't care
who disagreed with his philosophy. He would argue with Rav Chaim miBrisk
or anyone else. On the other hand he was not interested in pushing
other communities to follow his way.

   It is irrelevant whether the term daat Torah first appeared 50 years ago
or 150 years ago, its importance is recent. It is clear that within the
chassidic world the idea existed for each sect. However, it has spread
and expanded in the yeshiva world since world war II.

2. The concept of daat Torah leads to the debate over who is a gadol.
   In the old days this was not an important concept. However, since now
gedolim have this new power it is crucial to define who is a gadol.
Hence, if one has different views than the "correct" one there are 2 choices.
Either the person is not a gadol or else it is a "horaat shaah".
Hence, Rav Kook, Rav Soloveitchik etc. are not gedolim because of their
zionist stances and attitude to secular studies.
In Rav Shurkin's (excellent) sefer of Rav Soloveitchik's shiurim, the
Rav is listed as the av bet of Boston ! no mention of YU presumably since 
a gadol would not have such an association (I have no idea if this is what
R. Shurkin personally feels or if that is what is necessary to spread
the Torah). Similary, Rav Hirsh did not "really" beleive in Torah with
Derech Eretz, roshei yeshiva from Telshe would not particpate in a yom
haatazmaut celebration etc.
There is no possibility to be a gadol and yet disagree with the "correct"
position.

3. Because they are right ipso facto there is no need to justify a position.
As an example, consider saying Hallel on Yom Haatzamaut. Rav Ovadiah
Yosef has a long responsa showing why one should not say a beracha and
concludes that it is best to say some perek of tehillim as praise.
Rav Schach says that Chazon Ish did not say Hallel and so anyone who
disagrees thinks he is better than CI and so a baal gaavah.

4. The last point relates tangentially to other issues. If some gadol
issues a decree that it is prohibited to learn secular studies in Israel
does that automatically bind everyone? No one can disagree since there
has already been a horaah?
With that attitude we don't need poskim. The first rabbi out to prohibit
something automatically wins (does that work le-kulah?).

As a simple less controversial example, I have always used cottenseed oil
on pesach. One well known rabbi told me that this allowed in the US
where Rav Moshe is the posek. However, since I moved to Israel I must
stop since Rav Eliyashiv does not allow it (for asheknazim of course).
I am dumbfounded by this attitude. With the greatest of respect for
Rav Eliyashiv who declared him the posek of Israel? Was there a vote I
didn't hear about? Does Rav Shapira or Rav Lichtenstein or all chasidim
go to Rav Eliyashiv with questions?
Those that accept Rav Eliyashiv's opinions certainly rely on a great posek.
How that binds others who didn't ask a question I haven't the vaguest idea.
Another posek told me that Chazon Ish is THE posek of Bnei Brak and
probably Israel. Rav Moshe didn't agree with that approach.
Does that mean that all sefardim in Israel should follow CI rather
than Rav Yosef or the sefardi posek of their choice? How about chassidim?
I strongly suspect that way less than 50% of Bnei Brak consider CI as
their posek. Again, this in no way reduces the greatness of CI or 
the need to disagree with respect (and of course sources).

5. Even many of those who believe in daat Torah limit its application.
Rav Schach has several times attacked the charedim of America as not
being sufficiently charedi. Many charedim in the US have a secular
education at least through high school if not through college and
advance degrees. Almost all poskim in Israel denounce such an approach.

I have seen several responsa where the questioneer asks a straight
halakhic question asking for Daat Torah. When the posek answers is
this a more correct answer than those that don't claim to have Daat Torah?

Bottom line I view daat Torah as an attempt by some groups to say
we are right and you are wrong and it is not up for discussion.
Anyone who disagrees is simply defined as not being important, by definition.
More problematic is the need to deny the valildity of any gadol who
disagrees with the daat torah approach.



Kol Tuv,
Eli Turkel

In a message dated Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:10:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il> writes:
> 
> Bottom line I view daat Torah as an attempt by some groups to say
> we are right and you are wrong and it is not up for discussion.
> Anyone who disagrees is simply defined as not being important, by definition.
> More problematic is the need to deny the valildity of any gadol who
> disagrees with the daat torah approach.
> 
> 
> 
> Kol Tuv,
> Eli Turkel

I once heard someone sum up the difference of opinion as- " do you view the rav as a guide at your side or a sage on the stage?"

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

     I think this effort will be of interest to the list- Moshe Luchins

NATIONAL CONFERENCE OF SYNAGOGUE YOUTH

A Message from the National Director
Rabbi Dovid Kaminetsky

The National NCSY office is presently looking into ways of increasing
Jewish and Hebrew Culture Clubs in Public and Private Schools throughout the
 United States and Canada. We are trying to find teachers and students who are
 interested in assisting in this process. To start a club we need to identify a
teacher
and a small group of students within a school who want to see this type of
activity take place.
 Once we are made aware of the name of a school where there is an interest in
starting a club we will be happy to make the necessary contacts to facilitate
the
establishment of the club. Under the Federal Equal Access Act, secondary public
schools receiving federal funds must allow students to form religious clubs if
the
 school allows other non-curriculum-related clubs to meet during
non-instructional time.

There are many clubs of this type functioning today throughout the United
States.
Students are given the opportunity to learn about Israel and Jewish Culture
during
 breaks in their school day. For more information please contact our office.

Teachers and students interested in establishing a club in their
 school are asked to write to ncsy@ou.org

Eli Turkel:>>
My problem with this are (in short, I wrote an extended article on it).

1. Historically, it is clear that each community was governed by the LOR 
and not by gedolim. There exist numerous responsa of rabbis supporting
their independence. Actions like cherem Rabbenu Gershon, Rabbenu Tam etc. were 
really instituted by meetings of all the local communities.
They are named after famous people because they were leaders but they were never
issued by individual people, no matter how great.

I highly recommend the biography of Rav Breuer. One point made in the book was 
that Rav Breuer was the posek for his community and he didn't care
who disagreed with his philosophy. He would argue with Rav Chaim miBrisk or 
anyone else. On the other hand he was not interested in pushing
other communities to follow his way.<<

Eli you beat me to the punch.

Q: So what changed?
A: The "Bovel" that is America.

Q: So what creates the vehement vigilance that borders on hostility?
A: The lack of discreet Kehillos that are insulated and isolated from other 
derochim, so Talmidim (not so much the leaders) put up very hard-line defense 
mechanisms to avoid contamination.

EG:  R. Breuer founded an indpendent kehillo. It was - in part - consituted to 
be insulated from even its Orthodox neighbors, e.g. YU. 

Crown Heights and Monroe are otehr exmaples of insulated communities whose 
members feel less threated and less influenced by otehr derochim.

Rich Wolpoe 

The Orthodox Caucus has a website that may help you:

<http://www.orthodoxcaucus.org>

> From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
> 	Rav Henkin z"l says unequivocally, both in his sefer (sorry no cite) and
> in the ET luach,  not to rely on this bizman hazeh.

Why?

I was taught that it is mutar to put up cholent right before shkiah if
there is a piece of raw meat in the pot, and have seen it done in several
homes. OC 253-4, also SAR and MB. Of course the only catch is when YT 
Rishon is on Friday.

Josh

There is understandable exhaustion after the large volume of comments about
the Nishmat program to produce Yoatzot.  Yet the discussion with all its
tangents is a valuable introduction to our facing the implications of
Orthodox women getting a serious religious and secular education. When the
universities were opened to women, the emergence of women doctors, lawyers
and other professionals became inevitable.  Women working is becoming the
norm within the orthodox community as well.  The very existenceof Kollelim
is predicated on the wives working.
Assuming that this change in role in society will have no impact on how
women view their role in religious life is unrealistic.  If they can
combine a partnership in a law firm with their role as mother and wife then
the argument that studying to become yoatzot will destroy their family life
makes little sense.  Is the Orthodox world prepared to attempt to fight and
reverse the broader society changes?  If not, then we have to honestly
respond to the new circumstances.  Most issues are not technically
halachic, and primarily reflect a concern about a bluring of traditional
roles. Many women are not interested in any change but those who are
dissatisfied with the status quo are often highly educated and younger.  
With all its ramifications this issue desrves serious ongoing analysis
conducted with proper respect for different perspectives.
Sincerely yours,
Yosef Blau  

Without getting into the substance of a recent anonymous posting 
forwarded by Rabbi Bechhofer and without suggesting 
any (even implicit) criticism of Rabbi Bechhofer, I would suggest 
that as a matter of policy, no messages to the list be posted 
without the name of the author of the message.  If people can 
post to the list without identifying themselves, there is no telling 
what sort of messages we will have inflicted upon us.  If someone 
wants to express an opinion on the list, he should be willing to 
take responsibility for it.

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

RYGB wrote: <<
the terminal R/L split in EY had a defining
moment in the Giyus Banos controversy, driving a wedge between the Agudah
and the Mizrachi, and, internally, rending PAI asunder from the Agudah.
Although, however, I have seen much assessment and re-assessment of the
process on the American scene, I have never seen any written analysis of
what happened on the Israeli scene. >>

The biography of the Chazon Ish ("Pe'er Ha-Dor") discusses this episode
in some detail (from, of course, a very definite ideological viewpoint).

Kol tuv,
Shlomo Godick

But that's where the sociology of how folks are trained comes in (and, at 
least judging from what elder yidden tell me it is a relatively recent 
trend), never mind it is a similar insularity that other groups often accuse 
Chabad of.  If folks are raised in a world where Rav Pam, Rav Solomon, Rav 
Berenbaum, Rav Gifter, and perhaps Rav Schach are the only candidates for 
gadol hador (or maybe the only living folks worth learning from) one is in 
an environment that is just as insular as a member of this or that chassidic 
movement who only learns the writings of the Rebbeim of that movement.  
While it might be unfortunate that the Chicago Community Kollel is only 
inviting agudah types, your neighborhood Young Israel probably only invites 
YU or Ner Israel types, and so forth.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il> quotes me and writes:
:> less earning power. We also have an increasing percentage of our population
:> heading for fiscally low income jobs; be it in k'lei kodesh, or in whatever
:> they can get on a trade-school (e.g. COPE) degree.

:> I'd love to hear a cause for believing in a more optimistic future. OTOH, if
:> it pushes more Jews to move to Israel, perhaps it's not so bad... <half-grin>

: While I completely agree with Micha I don't understand the last sentence.
: I think the situation in Israel is worse than in the US. In Israel most
: litvishe yeshiva boys end up in a kollel for the many years and their income
: depned on the latest coalition agreement.

When speaking of the US, I mentioned two possible outcomes: gov't school
vouchers or a real crisis in Jewish education. Israel already has the
equivalent of the first. So, while kollelnikim may depend on the coalition
agreement, there's a certain amount of money reaching the school system from
the gov't regardless of their income. Yes, tuition exists and is steadily
increasing, but it's not being born entirely by the parent body. So the
percentage of cost-per-student that they miss out on is smaller.

The lack of fiscal income in a kollel family is only a contributing factor
to a school's fiscal woes.

The boom in Jewish education coincided with an economic boom. The purchasing
power of a dollar has declined, and with it, so has disposable income. Spending
1/3 of your net income isn't feasible for all that many professionals either.

There are also fewer gevirim outside the parent body to approach than there
were 15 years ago.

Last, there's a population explosion. The number of kids per family, or
should I say tuitions per paycheck, is much higher as well. And, more money
is going to housing, clothing, and feeding the larger family.

I think these three latter issues have had far greater imact than the rise
of kollel population.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 27-Oct-99: Revi'i, Vayera
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 59b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 1

Michael Frankel <Michael.Frankel@dtra.mil> writes in v4n67:
:                               conversational ivris would actually sound
: kinda peculiar, probably because so rare

You reminded me....

By the time I got to Rav Dovid Lifshitz's shiur he had switch from giving
it in Yiddish to giving shiur in Hebrew. Probably because YU's population
didn't include enough Yiddish speakers, but I'm guessing on that point.

Either way, R' Dovid's shiur was very definitely in Ivris. Many days
started with "ShulOIM buchrim, mah NISHmuh?" I had a seat near the door
one year and was often told "Segoir-na es hadeles." Sometimes with a
redundant (because of the "na") "Bevakushu" at the end. Or before a final
the standard question, "Mee SHOchach aRUchas BOIkr?"

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 27-Oct-99: Revi'i, Vayera
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 59b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 1

In a message dated 10/27/99 12:03:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jjbaker@panix.com writes:

<< 
 The Orthodox Caucus has a website that may help you:
 
 <http://www.orthodoxcaucus.org>
  >>
The site is very interesting.

Kol Tuv
Joel Rich

	As a member and former long-time board member of the neighborhood
Young Israel to which you refer, here in West Rogers Park, I can assure you
that we (and I, personally) have invited not just YU and Ner Yisrael types
to speak and teach.   Speakers and teachers with smichot from other
yeshivot, including Lakewood and Telshe, have also spoken and taught at our
shul.  The ONLY qualification that I ever recall ever being discussed vis a
vis ANY speaker concerned their ability to speak and teach and how
interesting a speaker might be.   No one has ever been censored because of
the source of their smicha or where they happen to be now.   And that, is as
it should be.  The only pertinent questions are "can we learn from him?",
"is this person interesting?", "will people come", and "is this person
available?" 

	//Avram Sacks
	Chicago, IL


	From:	Alan Davidson <perzvi@hotmail.com> on 10/27/99 12:44 PM
	To:	hmaryles@yahoo.com@SMTP@cchntmsd
	cc:	avodah@aishdas.org@SMTP@cchntmsd 

	Subject:	scholars in residence

	But that's where the sociology of how folks are trained comes in
(and, at 
	least judging from what elder yidden tell me it is a relatively
recent 
	trend), never mind it is a similar insularity that other groups
often accuse 
	Chabad of.  If folks are raised in a world where Rav Pam, Rav
Solomon, Rav 
	Berenbaum, Rav Gifter, and perhaps Rav Schach are the only
candidates for 
	gadol hador (or maybe the only living folks worth learning from) one
is in 
	an environment that is just as insular as a member of this or that
chassidic 
	movement who only learns the writings of the Rebbeim of that
movement.  
	While it might be unfortunate that the Chicago Community Kollel is
only 
	inviting agudah types, your neighborhood Young Israel probably only
invites 
	YU or Ner Israel types, and so forth.

	______________________________________________________
	Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

********************


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