Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 022

Saturday, October 2 1999

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 11:53:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Sammy Ominsky <sambo@charm.net>
Ish Mazliah

As a follow-up to yesterday, I was reading Adir Amruzi's notes in the
introduction of the siddur Ish Mazliah, and he says that he changed from
the mishnaic "hebraisms" to Biblical because it is "nachon yoter
lefi gedolei hamedakdakim", but he kept, in parentheses "hanusah


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Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 14:50:28 EDT
From: Phyllostac@aol.com
proper Simchas Torah ways

In a message dated 99-10-01 12:11:42 EDT, harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
<< As Simchas Torah approaches I would like to relate one
 of my pet peeves.  Why is it that there has to be
 endless dancing on the part of Yeshiva Bachurim on
 that day, both at night and especially in the morning?
  I, of course, understand the reason for all of this
 exuberance, but, personally I think what is really
 going on is far more than just pure exuberance over
 the Simcha of the Torah. Sure, in some cases it is
 legitimate. The dancing does reflect a tremendous
 hislahavus for Toras HaShem.  But I believe that in
 many cases it is just a pure and simple hijacking of
 the day away from Balei Batim.  ... >>



I would like to give you a great 'yeyasher kochacha' for your important
comments and I would like to add the following.

I think the baalei batim should not allow the Simchas Torah services to be
hijacked from them.Since when do youngsters determine how a service should
be conducted?

Also-I think that to see how Simchas Torah should be conducted (as with
other things),we should look to our religious leaders (Rabbis,Roshei
Yeshiva,talmidei chachamim).They are the ones who should be determing how
services and hakafos should be conducted-not young students.From my limited
experience,I think that big tamidei chachamim usually participate a bit in
hakafos,but spend most of their time (esp. if hakafos go on for a long time)
sitting or standing on the sidelines and learning/talking in learning/talking
to people.One might say that they don't have strength to dance as the younger
kids too-but I think that would not be the whole story.

The custom is to make seven hakafos onSimchas Torah-as on Hoshannah Rabbah.A
hakafa means going around the bima one time.The way it is nowadays,typically
the bima is circled hundreds of times.There is no obligation to make hundreds
of hakafos.I suspect that originally the hakafos of Simchas Torah were
not as long as they often are today-rather more like those of Hoshannahs.
Even among the Yeshiva students-I suspect that the real scholarly types don't
go overboard-neither on Simchas Torah nor on Purim or at other times-It
is,I suspect,rather the lively/lebedig, less/non scholarly types that are
the leaders in this type of activity.

Another consideration is that sometimes the overly exuberant activity is fueled
by alcohol.People should remember that Simchas Torah is not a second Purim
(and even on Purim alcoholic binges are improper).There seems however,to be
a growing confusion between Purim and Simchas Torah-with alcohol and limited
costumes spreading to ST from Purim (as there is a confusion among some
between Yom Kippur and 9Av,with many thinking of them similarly evidently).

Another thing-on ST,as all year (and especially on Yomtov and especially
one celebrating Torah),a very important part of the day is taking time to
study our holy Torah.Let us remember that 'Talmud Torah kineged kulam'
and we should not spend the whole day partying,dancing and drinking and
neglecting the study of the very Torah we are so celebrating!!

The monumental 'toldos chag Simchas Torah' by A.Yaari (Mosad haRav Kook)
gives much information on the Yomtov,some of which relates to this subject.
Evidently,the problem of Simchas Torah being hijacked is not new,as seen in
a comment he cites from a hassidic leader to the effect that 'lomdei Torah
rejoice on Shavuous because it was then that the Torah was given,while
am haaratzim (ignorami) rejoice on Simchas Torah,because then the Torah
is finished'

Finally-in closing-as I have things to attend to-Is there no inyan of
'tircha ditzibura' on Simchas Torah??


P.S.Sometimes advocates of very long hakafos point to a statement in the
mishna berura re how the GR"A danced with all his energy on Simchas Torah
and remarked on how it allowed him to reach great heights that he may not
otherwise have reached-but they don't seem to realize that it doesn't say that
he danced for hours.I very much doubt that the GR"A z"l (whose yohrzeit just
passed) danced for hours.I suspect that he danced and fullfilled other aspects
of the day-and then promptly returned to his studies. Let us also remember
with regard to hakafos as with other things-kol hamosif goraya (whoever adds
subtracts-sometimes 'more is less' and 'less is more'. Finally-the bottom
line is-essentially Simchas Torah is a siyum celebration,similar to the
celebration when finishing of tractate of the Talmud,e.g. Do people stretch
out a siyum with countless hours of dancing?

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Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 15:10:11 -0500
From: david.nadoff@bfkpn.com
Re: kodshecha - kodsh'cha

In V4#21 Sammy Ominsky wrote:

>If I may... the siddur Ish Mazliah was (written? compiled?) by Adir Amruzi
>based on the teachings of R' Meir Mazuz, which in turn are based on the
>writings of his father, Shu"T Ish Mazliah by R' Mazliah, and R' Shaul

Thank you for the correction. Please excuse my error as to "authorship" of the siddur.

Kol Tuv, David

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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 17:16:06 -0700
From: Ezriel Krumbein <ezsurf@idt.net>
Re: Green Esrogim

> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 07:12:07 -0700 (PDT)
> From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: green esrog
> - --- "Ari Z. Zivotofsky" <azz@lsr.nei.nih.gov> wrote:
> > Might there be those opinions that would prefer a
> > green one?
>   The reason some prefer "green"
> esrogim is that they tend to be fresher and,
> therefore, last longer and look nicer.  
> HM

The Lekutei Maharich says to use a green esrog because the medrash says
Esther had a green complection and Esther was considered beautiful;
therefore green is beautiful. So a beautiful esrog is green.

Kol Tov and Gut Yom Tov

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Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 17:23:38 -0400
From: "Richard Friedman" <rfriedma@os.dhhs.gov>
"Kodsh'cha" as a noun

	Sadya Targum suggests (Avoda 4:20) that, in "moadei kodsh'cha," 
"kodshecha" is not a noun, but an adjective, and that the phrase means 
"moadei kodesh shelcha," "Your sacred holidays."  I think his Hebrew 
expansion is correct, but I think the English translation is technically, 
"the set times of Your holiness," and "kodsh'cha" is a noun.

	This raises the question of the fine distinction between two nouns 
both of which mean "holiness" -- "kodesh" and "k'dusha."  I think the 
difference may be as follows:  "kodesh" seems to mean a holy thing or place,
 while "k'dusha" seems to mean "the quality or state of being holy."  Then, 
the translations may be "sanctum" ("kodesh") and "holiness" ("k'dusha").

		Richard Friedman

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Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 22:37:37 +0200 (IST)
From: <millerr@mail.biu.ac.il>
Re: Avodah V4 #21

> But is that really true? NO! I used to love the day.
> I couldn't wait to be Mesameach with my Chaverim.But
> over the years, Simchas Torah has evolved from a
> beautifully festive day into one of the most draggy
> days in Shul of the year.What a way to end Yom Tov!
> HM
> =====
Right on
I had the same thought today
What used to be an exciting and happy day is now one that drags out with
the happy feeling only as its finally over and we get to go home

I'm just not sure if the change is in "them" and not in "us" as we get

Anyway I'd like to know what ever happened to the flags with the apples
and lit candles on the top.

When and how and why did this start and stop?


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