Avodah Mailing List

Volume 03 : Number 100

Friday, June 25 1999

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:47:04 EDT
From: C1A1Brown@aol.com
Subject:
Chareidi schools


 >>>My son feels that sending his children to a school which offers secular 
subjects would be tantamount to violating some unwritten code for avreichim 
who all seem to send their children to scoools w/o secular subjects.  Is 
there, indeed, no alternative for these American educated avreichim who would 
like to see  at least a 
minimal secular education for their kids?<<<

The alternative is, of course, to stand up for what you believe is right at 
the cost of violating the supposed unwritten code.  

My wife and I are always amused when we get into conversations with people 
who have TVs in there home, believe their children should have a secular 
education, acknowledge the value Israel as a State, and then send their 
children to a school which preaches against most of these items - after all, 
you don;t want to be identified with the people who send their kids to the 
'other' (whichever it may be) school <sic>.  Hypocricy?

-CB


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Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:28:00 -0400
From: "Clark, Eli" <clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM>
Subject:
Pig Born of Cow


Our esteemed listowner asks:

>In www.asktherabbi.org (a product of Ohr Sameiach) a questioner is told that
if a pig fetus is placed in >the uterus of a cow and was born of a cow
is treif
>because "anything originating from a kosher animal" excludes something not
>produced by that animal.

>What if we implanted a newly fertilized egg?

>Based on what I said in the name of R' Dovid WRT kinim, should we say that
>the pig embryo lacks halachic mamashus, and therefore the only meaningful
>goreim is the cow? Does this require knowing how R' Dovid considers batei
kinim
>to be unique?

I think the analysis of this question does not turn on the definition of
halakhic "mamashut," which is a fairly elusive term.  The general
principle, as stated on "ask the rabbi," is of course that an object
retains the status of its source.  The pig fetus therefore retains its
status as a pig upon its removal from the womb of the sow.  Note that
this removal is equivalent to its "birth," and the later delivery from
the uterus of the cow will not retroactively change that status.

In the case of a newly fertilized egg, in contrast, the egg does not
have a status of a pig fetus.  Why?  I would suggest that this situation
is governed by the well-known principle that during the first forty days
of gestation, an embyro is "maya be-alma."

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark


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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:49:05 +0100
From: David Herskovic <david@arctic1.demon.co.uk>
Subject:
Israel


R' Shrage admonishes me for allowing preferences in one's liking of
gedoilim but in the next sentence describes one rebe as one of the
'gedolei and kedoshei hador' while another is a mere talmid khokhem. My
intention was not to advance one godel over another but as reb shrage
himself suggests preferences do exist and if I were debating amongst a
different audience my comments may have been different.

Further on in his missive he groups me with the KKK for pointing out the
unfortunate use of violence in orthodox communities. Is he suggesting it
is not true? or am I a kkk'nik for pointing it out? The debate should be
about how to raise our children and how to educate ourselves so that
violence is NEVER an option and not to pretend that it does not exist.

But I must once again disagree with reb Jordan. As I see it the growth
in Israel of ultra-orthodox Jewry has been predominantly political and
ethnical and not academical and religious. That mobile phone companies
have marketing campaigns specifically for chareidim is of little Jewish
significance and reading in chareidi papers of the chareidi buying power
sounds similat to the 'pink dollar' discussions I read about in the
papers over here. Except that as Jews we have a mishne 'udeishtamesh
bethogo...'

While Artscroll may have its detractors it still has no rival in the
orthodox world. Chutz la'aretz Jewry does not walk around with the
damaging air of superiority that they are all deserving and do not focus
all their energy on how they are persecuted and hated. They simply get
on with it.

R' Jordan also mentions culture. Well, if Ben David, Avram Fried et al
are chareidi culture then they too are American and I think Georgie is
more of a name than Yaffa:)

On a serious note though while there is undoubtedly more torah in Israel
in quantity I think the quality is on an equal level to that in the US
and in many areas even inferior. Pre-eminence in politics and posturing
is not pre-eminence in Torah and Judaism.

David Herskovic


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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:37:08 -0400
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject:
Malaria should be Yellow Fever


>>Remember, until about 1898, malaria was considered a function of dirt and not 
of
moquitoes!  

Rich Wolpoe<<

Correction I meant Yellow Fever..RW


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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:39:19 -0400
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject:
Nishtanu haTeva


In any case the Din of gloves would have been the same Bizman Hashas, it has 
nothing to do with Nishtanu Hativi'im).

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind<<

It Might IF you re-interpret Nishtanu to refer  to changes in human custom!

Rich Wolpoe


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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:46:09 -0400
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject:
Gedolim, EY, Histroical Parallels


How much more often, when discussing contemporary poskim on this 
list, are we referring to Eretz Yisrael G'dolim? That is not to say that 
there are no G'dolim elsewhere, but it does seem that a definite shift has 
been in the making for the last 35 years that leaves Israel preeminent in the 
world of Torah ..Jordan<<

Questions:
1) When Ezra and Nechemia made "aliyo" - how much of a percentage of 'world" 
Jewry remained behind in Bovel?

2) Of those who did remain in Bovel in the Bayis sheini era, who amongst them 
were gedolim?  And of those, how many of them were Gedolim while in Bovel?

More later, BEH,
Rich wolpoe 


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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:37:28 EDT
From: Yzkd@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Nishtanu haTeva


In a message dated 6/24/99 7:58:57 AM EST, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

> It Might IF you re-interpret Nishtanu to refer  to changes in human custom!

IMHO it is not needed, as Sforim are full with Halochos that are based on 
human custom, without invoking the rule of Nishtanu Hativi'im, Ubpashtus the 
word Teva does not mean Minhag.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind


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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:29:12 -0400
From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Subject:
the words "Rabbi" and "Rav"


Any time a person asks a question, it is important for everyone to agree
on the definition of the words used in the question. There is a certain
question I want to ask, but it's quite possible that this question
bothers me only because I understand this word differently than most
other people.

If most (or even many) other people understand this word the same way as
I do, then it is a good question, and I will ask it here on Avodah. But
if most people understand this word differently than I do, then I have to
rethink my whole understanding of this subject.

Therefore, I would like to conduct an informal survey to see how other
people understand the English word "Rabbi", which I presume to have the
same meaning as the Hebrew "Rav". I understand these words to be titles
used for a person who has what is colloquially called "semichah", or
properly called "heter horaah", meaning that he has permission from his
teacher(s) to answer halachic questions, i..e., pasken shailos.

Whether you have the same understanding as I do or not, please write back
to me directly at KennethGMiller@Juno.com and let me know. And if your
understanding is different than mine, I love to hear a short explanation
of what you understand those words to mean.

Thank you all very much.

Akiva Miller
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.


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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:44:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Asking she'elot in cases of pikuach nefesh


Any comments? 

____________________

Thursday, June 24, 1999 

By Relly Sa'ar, Ha'aretz Correspondent 

A woman giving birth in Tzfat yesterday nearly died when she refused
to let doctors treating her remove the placenta from her uterus until
she could obtain permission from a Jerusalem rabbi.

The woman got permission within half an hour, and doctors at the
Rebecca Sieff Hospital were able to remove the placenta, which had
become lodged in her uterus and was not coming out on its own. The
woman is still hospitalized in stable condition, suffering from low
hemoglobin.

The 27-year-old woman went into the delivery room in the afternoon,
and gave birth to a boy. The placenta did not follow the baby out of
the womb, a not unusual occurrence.

The medical team attending the woman asked her to sign a consent form
to allow them to put her under a general anesthetic so that they
could remove the placenta, but the woman demurred - and asked her
husband, who was in the room, to call a rabbi in Jerusalem and ask
his permission.

The medical team insisted that the situation was an emergency, as the
woman was losing a good deal of blood.

A source at the hospital said that it is sometimes possible to wait
for the placenta to come out on its own, but when a woman is bleeding
as much as the patient in question, "her life was truly in danger."

"Had five more minutes passed [before the husband got permission],
the damage would have been irreversible," the source added. "There
are quite a few cases of this kind, when the woman giving birth is
ultra-Orthodox. 

 copyright 1999 Ha'aretz. All Rights Reserved



_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:10:46 EDT
From: TROMBAEDU@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Israel


In a message dated 6/24/99 7:48:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
david@arctic1.demon.co.uk writes:

<< But I must once again disagree with reb Jordan. As I see it the growth
 in Israel of ultra-orthodox Jewry has been predominantly political and
 ethnical and not academical and religious. That mobile phone companies
 have marketing campaigns specifically for chareidim is of little Jewish
 significance and reading in chareidi papers of the chareidi buying power
 sounds similat to the 'pink dollar' discussions I read about in the
 papers over here. Except that as Jews we have a mishne 'udeishtamesh
 bethogo...'
 
 While Artscroll may have its detractors it still has no rival in the
 orthodox world. Chutz la'aretz Jewry does not walk around with the
 damaging air of superiority that they are all deserving and do not focus
 all their energy on how they are persecuted and hated. They simply get
 on with it.
 
 R' Jordan also mentions culture. Well, if Ben David, Avram Fried et al
 are chareidi culture then they too are American and I think Georgie is
 more of a name than Yaffa:)
 
 On a serious note though while there is undoubtedly more torah in Israel
 in quantity I think the quality is on an equal level to that in the US
 and in many areas even inferior. Pre-eminence in politics and posturing
 is not pre-eminence in Torah and Judaism.
  >>


Hmm, where to begin. First of all, the ridiculous. I think that Avraham 
Fried, Mordechai Ben David, et al, who are lovely fellows, have about as much 
to do with culture as Mcdonalds has to do with Cholent. My reference to 
culture has to do with serious music of a high calibre being composed in 
Israel, first rate novelists writing in hebrew,  and Sculptors and Painters 
doing excellent work. I only bring this up to point out that even for those 
whose primary relationship to Judaism doesn't come out of a sefer, there is 
an organic, unique, Israeli-Jewish culture in which to participate. 
As far as your other points, my comments regarding the level of scholarship 
and learning have nothing to do with Chareidim carrying cell phones. They 
have to do with the excellent work being done in Israel on texts, the 
popularization of the works of Mossad Harav Kook in bringing out superior 
editions of Rishonim, other publishers and scholars getting on the bandwagon. 
They have to do with works like the Frankel Rambam, and so many other S'forim 
which are expanding the scope of traditional Talmudic studies. The Batei 
Medrashim of the European style Yeshivot like Mir and Ponevich are vibrant 
and full, and never before in Jewish history have there been institutions 
like the Hesder Yeshivot. 
It goes without saying that without the Medinah, there would be very little 
by way of a Baal Tshuvah Movement, even though it has been led by Americans. 
Without the Medinah, it would not have happened. 

Jordan  


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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:42:02 -0400
From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Subject:
the words "Rabbi" and "Rav"


Many thanks to those who have responded to my survey. Just one point of
clarification: I understand the terms "Rabbi" and "Rav" to be synonomous,
while "Reb" is an entirely different word, having pretty much the same
meaning and usage as "Mister". I'm only asking about the "Rabbi" and
"Rav". Thanks.

Akiva Miller
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.


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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:27:56 -0400
From: "Daniel B. Schwartz" <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:
Re: Asking she'elot in cases of pikuach nefesh


Exaclt what was the Halachik issue involved?

----- Original Message -----
From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 12:44 PM
Subject: Asking she'elot in cases of pikuach nefesh


Any comments?

____________________

Thursday, June 24, 1999

By Relly Sa'ar, Ha'aretz Correspondent

A woman giving birth in Tzfat yesterday nearly died when she refused
to let doctors treating her remove the placenta from her uterus until
she could obtain permission from a Jerusalem rabbi.

The woman got permission within half an hour, and doctors at the
Rebecca Sieff Hospital were able to remove the placenta, which had
become lodged in her uterus and was not coming out on its own. The
woman is still hospitalized in stable condition, suffering from low
hemoglobin.

The 27-year-old woman went into the delivery room in the afternoon,
and gave birth to a boy. The placenta did not follow the baby out of
the womb, a not unusual occurrence.

The medical team attending the woman asked her to sign a consent form
to allow them to put her under a general anesthetic so that they
could remove the placenta, but the woman demurred - and asked her
husband, who was in the room, to call a rabbi in Jerusalem and ask
his permission.

The medical team insisted that the situation was an emergency, as the
woman was losing a good deal of blood.

A source at the hospital said that it is sometimes possible to wait
for the placenta to come out on its own, but when a woman is bleeding
as much as the patient in question, "her life was truly in danger."

"Had five more minutes passed [before the husband got permission],
the damage would have been irreversible," the source added. "There
are quite a few cases of this kind, when the woman giving birth is
ultra-Orthodox.

 copyright 1999 Ha'aretz. All Rights Reserved



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:44:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Asking she'elot in cases of pikuach nefesh


--- "Daniel B. Schwartz" <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET> wrote:
> Exaclt what was the Halachik issue involved?
> 

I have no idea.  What's amazing to me is the dependence some people
have on asking she'elot to Rabbanim, especially in the face of
pikuach nefesh.  Somehow, I get the impression that the people here
are not the type that think independently.

Kol tuv,
Moshe
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:14:45 EDT
From: Yzkd@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Asking she'elot in cases of pikuach nefesh


In a message dated 6/24/99 11:39:35 AM EST, moshe_feldman@yahoo.com writes:

> Any comments? 

In the Loshon of the S"O "Hasoeil Harei Zeh Shoifeich Domim, V'hanishal Harei 
Zeh Mgunoh Shehoyoh Loi Lidrosh Brabim Shemuttor".

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind


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Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 08:57:00 -0400
From: Harry Maryles <C-Maryles@neiu.edu>
Subject:
"The Sheep Mentality"


Moshe Feldman wrote:

> What's amazing to me is the dependence some people
> have on asking she'elot to Rabbanim, especially in the face of
> pikuach nefesh.  Somehow, I get the impression that the people here
> are not the type that think independently.
> 
> Kol tuv,
> Moshe

As I see it, this is one of the major problems of our day.   I like to 
refer to it as the "Sheep" mentality.  One of the reasons that I enjoy 
being on this list is because the correspondants on it are the exception 
to the "Sheep" mentality rule... They (we) are thinkers who are not 
sheep who follow without thinking analyzing, questioning, all in an 
attempt to find Emes. Sheep... do not think things through.  They just 
follow their peer group without thinking about consequences.  I believe 
that most people in Frum society fall into this category.  

I have been active in Jewish education here in Chicago for many years 
and have observed that most parents pick a day school or high school for 
their children not, because it most closely aligns with their own 
hashkafa, but because their freinds send their children there. One of 
the most common lines I hear from parents of a similar hashkafa to my 
own is, "I wanted to send my son/daughter to the "Frumest" Yeshiva... I 
can always make them less frum at home"!!! These parents don't give a 
moments thought to the fact that the school's hashkafa will be different 
than their own and that that will create potential conflict between the 
lives they see in thir own home and the hashkafa they learn in school.

This fact has hurt Jewish educatuion. The most right wing school has an 
enormous amount of power over the children and their parents. The level 
of secular education is diminished and parents who value a good general 
studies program have to just sit still powerless and eat it. With the 
exception of Philly, the trend in the right wing day schools and high 
schools is to move away from general studies with the goal to totally 
remove it from the curriculem.  I believe there are already such schools 
in existene already. 

The day school where I sent my children is the one which most closely 
resembles my hashkfa. It places the highest value on limudei kodesh but 
it also, places a very high value on limudei chol.  It fosters a good 
competetive environment in both areas with events such as Torah fairs 
science fair and the like.  It's pricipal, Rabbi Meir Shapiro 
exemplifies midos and the children pick up on and hopefully incorporate 
it in their own behavior.  After they graduate they remain with a life 
long respect and admiration for Rabbi Shapiro and affection for the 
school.  The mechanchim are amongst the finest in the city and are on 
par or better than the best of the more right wing school. 

But... this school has trouble attracting families like my own who send 
to the "frumer" school. The dichotomy between the parents and faculty is 
widening every year.  The school is now attracting the type of parent 
that values secular education more than religious.  This school is 
starting to resemble the more left wing school where they treat Gemorah 
like just another subject.

How sad!  When recently talking to a potential parent who does think 
things through he admitted to me that my school is the better school and 
more closely resembles his own haskafa. But he is sending to the frumer 
school because he is becoming afraid of the peer group influence on his 
kids from the type of families now being attracted.  This is happening 
more and more and is having a snowball affect.

What was once the norm is now becoming a dinosaur, along with ancient 
relics like myself.

HM


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