Avodah Mailing List
Volume 03 : Number 086
Friday, June 11 1999
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 01:32:05 +0300
From: Hershel Ginsburg <ginzy@netvision.net.il>
Subject: Re: Avodah V3 #84 HALACHA: Land for Peace
>Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 10:26:10 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
>Subject: HALACHA: Land for Peace
>
>Shannee wrote (on ISRAWORLD):
>> If you think about the law that you fight over Kash Ve'Teven
>> (straw!!!), which is
>> certainly a situation which doesn't threaten life - and yet you
>> risk your life to
>> prevent it, you must conclude that "peace" is not something that
>> enters the heading of
>> "piku'ach nefesh" in jewish sources.
>>
>> The opposite is true - you are ordered to go to war and _risk
>> lives_!!!
>>
>
>I think that there is a subtle distinction here:
>
>The general rule is that one may not risk his life to perform a
>mitzvah ("va'chai ba'hem") and conversely that, except in the case of
>the 3 cardinal sins (idolatry, sexual relationships, and murder) one
>may violate a mitzvah in order to save one's life.
..
..
..
>Logically, it makes sense that the Land of Israel should not be one
>of the cardinal principals for which we risk our lives *long term* .
>Semi-proof: Rav Yochanan Ben Zakkai's willingness to say "tain lee
>yavneh v'chachame'ha" rather than (as desired by the
>zealots--biryonim) fight to the death with the slight hope that the
>Jews would beat the Romans.
>
>Kol tuv,
>Moshe
>_________________________________________________________
It has been stressed repeatedly in the media by Sh"as M.K.'s, during the
past several weeks that Rav Ovadiah Yosef has paskened **L'HALACHA** that
if in the opinion of senior millitary and (I think) political leaders,
Israel could arrive at a peaceful settlement with any of the neighboring
Arab countries/authorities by giving up land in exchange, and thereby save
lives, Israel is permitted (obligated?) to do so. I don't recall exactly
where Rav Ovadiah wrote the tshuva (one of the M.K.'s did provide the exact
citation) but I **THINK** it's in Yabi'ah Omer, vol. 8, but I could easily
be wrong. I would be most obliged if someone out there could provide the
exact citation.
It should be noted that Rav Ovadiah is not a da'at yachid on this matter.
Rav Aharon Lichtenshtein & Rav Yehuda Amital have articulated similar
positions. This is also the official position of Degel Hatorah & so I
assume that it has Rav Shach's approval as well. Assorted respected, but
admittedly lesser lights (e.g., Rav Yoel Bin Nun; Rabbi Shlomo Riskin) also
support this position (more or less).
On the other hand many Rabbanim have articulated the opposite position,
closer to or identical with that of Shannee.
Clearly then either position (Land for Peace vs. Land is Docheh Piku'ach
Nefesh) can be justified or attacked on halachic grounds. Ergo, trying to
argue which position is the "correct" one is in my opinion, an excercise in
futility (as opposed to understanding the halachic basis for either
position). Statements like the Torah absolutely forbids/obligates giving
up land for peace not only are not helpful, but open up the Torah and the
halachic process to ridicule by the general public.
Generally with the usual run of halachic controversies, each camp can act
in accordance with the p'sak that they view as a correct, with little if
any impact on those who don't share their halachic opinion. Someone else's
decision to drink only Chalav Yisra'el or not to carry in an Eruv, has
little effect on my decision to drink stam chalav or avail myself of the
Eruv. The problem here is that in many, if not most, or perhaps even all,
public policy issues it is not possible (or wise) to accomodate both
positions. It is not possible for Israel to both give up land for peace
and hold on to every square inch/centimeter regardless of the cost in lives
and treasure. A decision has to be made and only one of the positions can
be accomodated (pick yer poison).
The decision is not halachic but political, military, and economic and
therefore should be decided by the political process (the modern equivalent
of the Sheva Tuvei Ha'ir of the 4th Chapater of Massechet Megilah).
Again, there is no utility in paskening public policy; it's just an
exercise in futility.
hg
.............................................................................
Hershel Ginsburg, Ph.D.
Licensed Patent Attorney and Biotechnology Consultant
P.O. Box 1058 / Rimon St. 27
Efrat, 90435
Israel
Phone: 972-2-993-8134 FAX: 972-2-993-8122
e-mail: ginzy@netvision.net.il
.............................................................................
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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 18:43:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Shalom Carmy <carmy@ymail.yu.edu>
Subject: Re: Avodah V3 #84
> Question #2: I heard that according to Rav Kook, Bayis Shlishi will be
> veegtarian and only korbon mincho will be offered. Did Rav Kook advocte
> altering our tefillos and nusach to co-incide with his conviction?
Of course not. One of his proofs is from the text of tefilla itself: we
pray that "minhat Yehuda ve-Yerushalayim will be acceptable," because in
the future the vegetarian toda will be the only korban voluntarily
offered.
[Note that my formulation answers an unasked question as well.]
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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:08:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: HALACHA: Land for Peace
--- Hershel Ginsburg <ginzy@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> Clearly then either position (Land for Peace vs. Land is Docheh
> Piku'ach
> Nefesh) can be justified or attacked on halachic grounds. Ergo,
> trying to
> argue which position is the "correct" one is in my opinion, an
> excercise in
> futility (as opposed to understanding the halachic basis for either
> position). Statements like the Torah absolutely forbids/obligates
> giving
> up land for peace not only are not helpful, but open up the Torah
> and the
> halachic process to ridicule by the general public.
>
I agree with you. My point is not to prove that I'm correct but to
understand the halachic issues involved. I do think that those who
make the "Land is docheh pikuach nefesh" argument (based on the
Minchat Chinukh) are unaware of the counterargument to this position.
The point of my post was to acquaint those people with the
counterargument.
Kol tuv,
Moshe
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:15:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Avodah V3 #84
--- Shalom Carmy <carmy@ymail.yu.edu> wrote:
> > Question #2: I heard that according to Rav Kook, Bayis Shlishi
> will be
> > veegtarian and only korbon mincho will be offered. Did Rav Kook
> advocte
> > altering our tefillos and nusach to co-incide with his
> conviction?
>
> Of course not. One of his proofs is from the text of tefilla
> itself: we
> pray that "minhat Yehuda ve-Yerushalayim will be acceptable,"
> because in
> the future the vegetarian toda will be the only korban voluntarily
> offered.
>
> [Note that my formulation answers an unasked question as well.]
>
>
What about other sections in tefillah, such as Musaf of Shabbat which
says that may it be Hashem's will that when we return to our land we
will bring the korban musaf consisting of 2 kevasim?
Kol tuv,
Moshe
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 20:02:04 EDT
From: Yzkd@aol.com
Subject: Re: Avodah V3 #84
In a message dated 6/10/99 6:10:38 PM EST, moshe_feldman@yahoo.com writes:
> > because in
> > the future the vegetarian toda will be the only korban voluntarily
> > offered.
> >
> > [Note that my formulation answers an unasked question as well.]
> >
> >
>
> What about other sections in tefillah, such as Musaf of Shabbat which
> says that may it be Hashem's will that when we return to our land we
> will bring the korban musaf consisting of 2 kevasim?
>
That is (included in) the unasked question that he answered by his
formulation, the only *voluntary* Korban, (this is also brought by the
Mforshim on the Medrosh that says that L'osid Lovoi all Korbonos will be
Bottul with the exception of Todah).
Kol Tuv
Yitzchok Zirkind
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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 18:10:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Harry Weiss <hjweiss@netcom.com>
Subject: kiddushe taut
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 09 Jun 99 13:10:17 -0500
> From: meir_shinnar@smtplink.mssm.edu
> Subject: Kiddushe taut
>
> Some questions to Rav Broyde about his excellent article about kiddushe taut.
>
> What about if the defect is present as an increased risk or potential for
> a defect? For example, rav Broyde mentions that Rav Feinstein brings down a
> case of a bisexual man. What about if the man started acting bisexually only
> after the marriage? May we argue that the tendency to be bisexual was already
> there,and therefore the kiddushim are kiddushe taut, or not?
>
> This would be highly relevant to the issue of abusive husbands, if one held that
> being abusive was somehow innate, even though neither husband nor wife
> knew ahead of time that he was going to be abusive.
>
I question whether the above is an issue at all from a halachic POV. In
both cases of the person not knowing that they were abusive or not
knowing they would act bisexual that has to be something that is
considered developed after the fact.
Homsexual behavior and abusiveness are wrong and violation of halacha.
Are you saying the person had no bechira chofshit and was forced to be
abusive or perform homosexual acts?
If the person had a history unknown to the other that is one thing. If
they start actions later that would be another.
What about a person who develops a disease, would we say there was a
genetic disposition and the marriage is void? There is not even an issue
of bechira chofshi here.
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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 21:47:40 EDT
From: C1A1Brown@aol.com
Subject: Science and religion
>>>1) It IS a fair assumption indeed, but I better assumption to give Chazal
the
benefit of any doubt and to humbly question are own scientific assumptions.
IOW
contemporary science isn't infallible either.<<<
The cardinal principle of science is that the truth of any hypothesis is to
be tested by observation. The common thread of your post is you reject the
scientific method. There is no reason to be in a state of doubt regarding
spontaneous generation, ayen hara, or other physical realities - perform an
experiment, observe the results, and test your hypothesis. Scientific
assumptions stem from experimentation, evidence, data - while not infallible,
it should not be lightly dismissed as irrelevant.
Richard Feynman, a Nobel prize winning physicist, has a slim book entitiled
'The Meaning of it All, Thoughts of a Citizen Scientist',(available even in
the public library here), where he writes that the assertion that hypothesis
may be tested to determine their degree of certainty (the scientific method)
is at odds with religion. Your solution is to throw out the scientific
method - >>> As illsutrated, various spritual disciplines accpet THEIR
truths as handed down because they work within thier structures and see ***no
reason to have to justify themselves scientficially.***<<<. My approach is
that the scientific method is a true standard and to arrive at some
resolution of the conflict.
>>>2) Halachically speaking, the revisions in scientific data should not
matter.
We have accepted Chazal's principles as binding, even despite paradoxes.
'nuff
said. <<<
In other words, halacha is divorced from physical reality - it is artificial,
sollopsistic.
>>>3) According to Professor Agus (and others), Chazal WERE privy to many
things al pi kabblolo. <<<
Do you have a shred of evidence that would prove this? In any case, it leads
down the same road - don't bother with proof, logic, or facts (the usuall
tools of science), because we have secret information you don't and are
therefore right. See below.
>>>Certain Chinese healers feel they have received a set of wisdonm still
unfathomed by science. <<<
And the scientific method dictates that we test their methodology thorugh
expermentation to determine its validity and to assume nothing until we do
so. If they are ever proven wrong by scientific means, it is invalid because
these secrets transcend science. And if they are logically false, they
transcend logic. And if they say it is night out and you see the sun shining
it is because you do not have the vision of the Masters. Reality must be
accepted on the basis of faith in Authority (capital A intended), with no
recourse to independent thought, verification or analysis. I won't hide the
fact that I reject this.
>>>4) Chazal dealt with a different fram of referene with regard to reality.
Is a
tzuras hapesach a REAL Pesach? I would call it a VIRTUAL pesach.<<<
You confuse legal constructs with cases of direct physical observation (see
last posting on eidus vs. mouse cases)
>>>but should not suppose that Chazal were WRONG or in error simplky becau
their map of the universe does not match conptemporary science.<<<
If you assume the scientific method is an accurate method of measuring the
veracity of a hypothesis, why not? Again, you simply toss out the scientific
method as invalid and hence have no conflict. I remain unwilling to do so -
a biased view, perhaps, but I think a rational one.
-CB
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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 22:30:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Cheryl Maryles <C-Maryles@neiu.edu>
Subject: Watch out for the TELEVISION virus (fwd)
This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.
------=_NextPart_000_007A_01BEB2E7.5BB17AA0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1
Content-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.990610223017.12725C@orion.neiu.edu>
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 02:17:15 +1000
From: Leon Shapiro <lshap@ozemail.com.au>
To: <Undisclosed-Recipient:@mailhub.neiu.edu;>
Subject: Watch out for the TELEVISION virus
A VIRUS WARNING
WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING
If you have a "TELEVISION", DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT open it!!! It presents
itself as an innocuous piece of hardware, running extremely primitive
software. WARNING!!! It contains not just AVIRUS, but many varied and
sophisticated AVIRUS.
While it appears to be a compilation of various harmless programs,
"TELEVISION" launches the self propagating Yeitzer HaRah Bug which replaces
all of the Mussar Shmoozen in your memory with Pritzus and Shtuss in a
matter of minutes and renders your Yeitzer Tov useless. DO NOT open or
even look at any programs running on "TELEVISION"!
WARNING!!! By the time you have watched it, it is too late. Just a few
minutes of viewing "TELEVISION" can totally DESTROY your entire RAM
(Rigorously Acquired Mitzvos). In addition, it totally warps your logic
board while sending you the error message, "NO AVIRUS FOUND"!
Since these are not new avirus, many people think they are immune to them.
WARNING! There is no immunity to "TELEVISION". What seems to be
aesthetically pleasing on the outside is actually a true Trojan Horse
containing a virulent bug called "HELLENISM" which spreads and contaminates
your system from the inside, while you sit in a state of
"TELEVISION"-induced stupor. It has the ability to ERASE all of your
Zechuyos one by one, so that you do not realize its effect until it is too
late!
This information has been received from Gedolai Yisroel, please share it
with anyone that might access the Yentanet. The Rabbonim have said that
these are very dangerous avirus and there is NO remedy for them at this
time. Send this letter out to as many people you can.
This is a WARNING for all Yidden - these are dangerous AVIRUS propagating
across the airwaves. DO NOT IGNORE THIS WARNING!!! If your system becomes
contaminated, it will AUTOMATICALLY forward itself to everyone who is on
the Original World Wide Web - the Kol Yisrael Areivim Zeh LaZeh Network!
If these avirus keep getting passed, they have the potential to do a great
deal of DAMAGE to Neshomas on the network worldwide!!! So, please trash
"TELEVISION" without opening it.
DANGER!!! These are not only self-replicating AVIRUS, but they mutate into
"LAYTZANUS" and "APIKORSUS" - two of the most damaging and difficult to
combat viruses known to man. They can WIPE OUT any Olam HaBa you have
stored as a BACK-UP! Please practise cautionary measures and forward this
to all your on-line chaveirim ASAP!!!
IF YOUR SYSTEM HAS ALREADY BEEN INFECTED WITH AVIRUS: Read the anti-Avirus
manual - Hilchos Teshuva Shel HaRambam for instructions.
TO PROTECT YOURSELF FROM BEING INFECTED WITH AVIRUS: Run a Mesillas
Yesharim or Chovos HaLevavos Program daily.
Please pass this along to everyone you know so AVIRUS can be stopped. PASS
THIS ON TO YOUR FRIENDS.
Make a HARD COPY OF THIS MESSAGE and TAPE IT TO YOUR TV SCREEN! Better
yet, throw the blasted thing out!
If your system is already infected, this message will automatically begin
repeating itself.
Subject: AVIRUS WARNING
WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING
If you have a "TELEVISION", DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT open it!!! It presents
itself as an innocent item!
______________________________________________
Leon Shapiro
Nortech Computer Pty Ltd
294 Glen Eira Road, Elsternwick, Vic 3185 AUSTRALIA
+61-(0)3-9523 0333 CellPhone +61-(0)418 533 566
------=_NextPart_000_007A_01BEB2E7.5BB17AA0
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>A VIRUS WARNING<BR><BR>WARNING WARNING WARNING =
WARNING WARNING=20
WARNING<BR><BR>If you have a "TELEVISION", DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT open=20
it!!! It presents<BR>itself as an innocuous piece of hardware, =
running=20
extremely primitive<BR>software. WARNING!!! It contains not =
just=20
AVIRUS, but many varied and<BR>sophisticated AVIRUS.<BR><BR>While it =
appears to=20
be a compilation of various harmless programs,<BR>"TELEVISION" launches =
the self=20
propagating Yeitzer HaRah Bug which replaces<BR>all of the Mussar =
Shmoozen in=20
your memory with Pritzus and Shtuss in a<BR>matter of minutes and =
renders your=20
Yeitzer Tov useless. DO NOT open or<BR>even look at any programs =
running=20
on "TELEVISION"!<BR><BR>WARNING!!! By the time you have watched =
it, it is=20
too late. Just a few<BR>minutes of viewing "TELEVISION" can =
totally=20
DESTROY your entire RAM<BR>(Rigorously Acquired Mitzvos). In =
addition, it=20
totally warps your logic<BR>board while sending you the error message, =
"NO=20
AVIRUS FOUND"!<BR><BR>Since these are not new avirus, many people think =
they are=20
immune to them.<BR>WARNING! There is no immunity to "TELEVISION". =
What=20
seems to be<BR>aesthetically pleasing on the outside is actually a true =
Trojan=20
Horse<BR>containing a virulent bug called "HELLENISM" which spreads and=20
contaminates<BR>your system from the inside, while you sit in a state=20
of<BR>"TELEVISION"-induced stupor. It has the ability to ERASE all =
of=20
your<BR>Zechuyos one by one, so that you do not realize its effect until =
it is=20
too<BR>late!<BR><BR>This information has been received from Gedolai =
Yisroel,=20
please share it<BR>with anyone that might access the Yentanet. The =
Rabbonim have said that<BR>these are very dangerous avirus and there is =
NO=20
remedy for them at this<BR>time. Send this letter out to as many =
people=20
you can.<BR><BR>This is a WARNING for all Yidden - these are dangerous =
AVIRUS=20
propagating<BR>across the airwaves. DO NOT IGNORE THIS =
WARNING!!! If=20
your system becomes<BR>contaminated, it will AUTOMATICALLY forward =
itself to=20
everyone who is on<BR>the Original World Wide Web - the Kol Yisrael =
Areivim Zeh=20
LaZeh Network!<BR>If these avirus keep getting passed, they have the =
potential=20
to do a great<BR>deal of DAMAGE to Neshomas on the network =
worldwide!!! =20
So, please trash<BR>"TELEVISION" without opening =
it.<BR><BR>DANGER!!! =20
These are not only self-replicating AVIRUS, but they mutate =
into<BR>"LAYTZANUS"=20
and "APIKORSUS" - two of the most damaging and difficult to<BR>combat =
viruses=20
known to man. They can WIPE OUT any Olam HaBa you have<BR>stored =
as a=20
BACK-UP! Please practise cautionary measures and forward =
this<BR>to all=20
your on-line chaveirim ASAP!!!<BR><BR>IF YOUR SYSTEM HAS ALREADY BEEN =
INFECTED=20
WITH AVIRUS: Read the anti-Avirus<BR>manual - Hilchos Teshuva Shel =
HaRambam for instructions.<BR><BR>TO PROTECT YOURSELF FROM BEING =
INFECTED WITH=20
AVIRUS: Run a Mesillas<BR>Yesharim or Chovos HaLevavos Program=20
daily.<BR><BR>Please pass this along to everyone you know so AVIRUS can =
be=20
stopped. PASS<BR>THIS ON TO YOUR FRIENDS.<BR><BR>Make a HARD COPY =
OF THIS=20
MESSAGE and TAPE IT TO YOUR TV SCREEN! Better<BR>yet, throw the =
blasted=20
thing out!<BR><BR>If your system is already infected, this message will=20
automatically begin<BR>repeating itself.<BR><BR>Subject: AVIRUS=20
WARNING<BR><BR>WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING<BR><BR>If =
you=20
have a "TELEVISION", DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT open it!!! It=20
presents<BR>itself as an innocent item!<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>______________________________________________<BR> &n=
bsp; &nb=
sp; &nbs=
p; =20
Leon=20
Shapiro<BR> &n=
bsp; &nb=
sp;=20
Nortech Computer Pty Ltd<BR> 294 Glen Eira Road, Elsternwick, Vic =
3185=20
AUSTRALIA<BR> +61-(0)3-9523=20
0333 CellPhone =
+61-(0)418 533=20
566</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_007A_01BEB2E7.5BB17AA0--
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Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 11:57:22 +0300
From: "Berger" <rachelbe@netvision.net.il>
Subject: Chazal and Metzius
If I can interject a few Mekorot into this discussion:
In Moreh Nevukhim 3:14, the Rambam clearly states that Hazal ".. did not
have a Masoret on these issues from the Neviim, rather they knew or heard
about them from contemporary experts" (my translation).
This position matches that of Rav Shrira Gaon (Otzar HaGeonim, Gitin,
p.152) who says, with regard to the Gemara's medical recommendations, that
the Hakhamim ".. were not doctors, they were just recording accepted
practices of their time... these statements are not words of "Mitzvah",
therefore they should not be relied upon" (my translation).
On the other hand, Rav Akiva Eiger (Shulhan Arukh, Yoreh Deah, 336, Dibur
Hamathil 'Nitna') argues that we should not use the medicines suggested by
Hazal because we don't fully understand them, and people will come to mock
the words of Hazal when their medicines don't work.
This position is stated more emphatically by the GR"A (Shulhan Arukh,
Yoreh Deah 179:13, where he quotes the Rambam and dismisses it as a
statement influenced by the Rambam's study of philosophy, which the GRA
rejects.
Shalom Berger
Lookstein Center for Jewish Education in the Diaspora
Bar Ilan University
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Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 15:04:12 +0300 (GMT+0300)
From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
Subject: chazal and science
richard_wolpoe writes
> Subject: Metzius and Chazal
>
> Several points:
>
> 1) It IS a fair assumption indeed, but I better assumption to give Chazal the
> benefit of any doubt and to humbly question are own scientific assumptions. IOW
> contemporary science isn't infallible either.
>
> 2) Halachically speaking, the revisions in scientific data should not matter.
> We have accepted Chazal's principles as binding, even despite paradoxes. 'nuff
> said. As illsutrated, various spritual disciplines accpet THEIR truths as
> handed down because they work within thier structures and see no reason to have
> to justify themselves scientficially.
>
We have been through this before. I again cite the book Hishtanut hatevaim
behalachah by Rav Gutal
and several articles in BDD and a chapter in the book encylopedia
hilchatit refuit by Rabbi Dr. Steinberg.
All these sources point out numerous places that halacha disagrees
with modern science in a way that one cannot conceive that modern
science is wrong. Some of these are already discussed by Rishonim
and many more by achronim especially recent Poskim.
These differences affect halacha le-maaseh and so can not be swept
under the carpet. Either one changes the halacha to fit the new
facts or else one follows the "old" halacha in spite of science.
Some quick examples.
1. Babies been in the 8th or 9th month of pregnancy
2. Washing babies with hot water on shabbat
3. A woman becoming niddah after she is pregnant,
4. Eating food that is almost rotten
5. Animals giving birth before 3 years
6. Terefot especially extra lobes in the lungs
7. Paternity testing by blood of the father
8. needles in the heart, a chicken without a heart
9. semen and urine tracts in the male
10, Chazal's description of the woman's body
11. Medicines in the Gemarrah especially those requiring
mumble-jumble sayings
12. fixing limbs on shabbat
13. Mezizah in a brit milah
14. Nursing mother becomin niddah
15. Using a needle to remove senen from the testicles
16. Milk as a intoxicant
17. Getting pregnant from the first intercourse
18. All the problems of the defintion of death
Again this is a partial list discussed through the ages with a variety
of possible solutions. However "most" poskim do not simply say we
accept chazal against modern science.
Kol Tuv,
Eli Turkel
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Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 08:54:52 EDT
From: EDTeitz@aol.com
Subject: Re: forced conversion
<<
Just before Shavuos I raised the problem of the geirus of Mattan Torah
being
ba'al korcham (kafah aleihem har kigigis - Shabbos 88). On this week's
parsha the Shav Shameitza asks how Moshe could seperate from his wife when
he
had not yet been mekayem peru u'revu - his former children were no longer
his
because ger shenitgayer k'katan shenolad. He answers that the geirus of
Mattan Torah was ba'al korcham and on geirus ba'al korcham we don't apply
the
rule of k'katan shenolad (ayen sham; he discusses further). I'm still
amazed
that the makor of hil. geirus is a case that doesn't conform to the most
basic principle of geirus - kabbalat hamitzvot!
>>
B'nei Yisrael had an option. They could have chosen to die. Yes, it is not
a comfortable option, but it is an option. And as such, they did make a
choice to convert. And I always thought that na'aseh v'nishma is a fairly
good example of kabalas hamitzvos.
EDT
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Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:08:07 -0400
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Chazal and Metzius
>> >>
Doesn't this all go back to a very basic question - did Chazal receive
"science" through mesora (revelation) or not. If yes, then we have to accept
and try to reconcile with our "lying eyes" ; if no, we do the same thing that
Chazal assumedly did if this interpretation is correct - take "facts" ( as we
know/understand them) and work them through the halachic process.
Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich<<
YES Chazal WERE receipients of divine wisdom, via Kabbolo, etc. (ein mkomo
lehaarich)
The question is how much of that wisdom was lost via "leaks" in the mesora
pipeline AND how much have WE lost in our ability to distinguish which Chazal's
are al pi mesora and which are al pi observatoin/sevoro/common beliefs, etc.
This is what prompts me to give Chazal the benifit of the doubt. I do NOT
assume chazal are infallible rather I assume we have no compelling way to be
positive they were wrong. (Science continaully shifts paradigms)
Re: fish and meat. I do not know if this is based on physilogicalsakkono or
whatever. I would be really hesitant to tamper with it, becuase it is highly
likely they DID no something that we don't, not to mentions minhag avoseinu
beyodeinu.
Indeed, I would posit that even our greatest chachomim today are groping in the
dark as best as they can. (And why the Gro would have wanted to live 2,000
years ago!) We have LOST the underlying rationale to much of our hanhogo. If
we abondon it, that entire piece could become extinct. (think of kodshim and
tahoros). The only way to possibly restore the chcochmo behind the minhog is to
keep it alive and keep banging away at better understanding it.
That doesn't mean we do not QUESTION the obvious inconsistencies. It does mean
we can humbly acknowledge our own limitations and seek to delve deeper into the
issues.
Rich Wolpoe
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