Avodah Mailing List

Volume 02 : Number 073

Tuesday, December 8 1998

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:02:00 -0500
From: "Clark, Eli" <clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM>
RE: Hillul Hashem-yishuv ha-Aretz

RYGB writes:

>Getting back to the original issue,
>the mitnachalim, we are not suggesting they not be mekayem the mitzva of
>yishuv Eretz Yisroel - aderaba! - something I did not understand when I
>was 13 in 1975 watching them on TV (r"l!) in Sebastia, and something I
>still do not understand - why is it less of a mitzva of YEY to start
>gar'inim and yishuvim to settle the Negev and Galil. I therefore fail to
>discern the issue that R' Eli is critiquing.

I think we agree that a person fulfilling a mitzvah improperly can cause
a hillul Hashem.  (I never heard about refraining from tefillah
be-tzibbur while on an airplane for this reason.  But just last month my
sister's flight to Israel was delayed for an hour and a half by two
hasidim who refused to sit beside females.  That halakhic issue may well
deserve a thread of its own.)

Regarding where the mitzvah is fulfilled, I think we also agree -- it
does not require a caravan in Hevron, but can include a luxury cottage
in Ra'ananah.  (Indeed, Rav Lichtenstein once suggested, during a
symposium with R. Levinger and R. Yoel bin Nun, that dropping a caravan
onto a street in Hevron may be less of a fulfillment of yishuv Eretz
Yisrael than settling an unpopulated area.)

Where we part company I think is whether the mere presence of Jews in,
e.g., Hevron, creates a hillul Hashem which a) mitigates their
fulfillment of the mitzvah and b) requires them to settle in a less
controverisal location.  I believe this is your position.  I would say
that the hillul Hashem is caused by the ruffians who, in response to
Arab violence, rampage through the Arab market and those who lace their
public protests with violence and vituperation.  But, in theory at
least, I believe that a relatively conciliatory and cooperation-minded
Jewish community would be able to live in Hevron or Hevel Azah without
causing a hillul Hashem.  (In reality, we know that Hevron seems to
attract some of the least conciliatory Jews in Israel.  And parts of the
Arab population of Hevron seem even more volatile.)  In other words, I
think that the location of the yishuv is not creating the hillul Hashem,
but the activities of the mitnahalim and their political activists
sometimes do.

>I have not yet seen an answer here yet to my question on the
>counter-ta'ana that the mitnachalim have a chiyuv to be monei'a the
>govenment from giving land to the Palestinians - zu me'nayin lanu, v'im
>timzeh lomar ken, then the same applies to other areas of religion no
>less, perhaps much more so.

You will receive no answer from me on this point because I agree with
you.  The political protests are just that: political (as are the
demonstrations organized by the peace camp).  They do not derive from an
overriding religious imperative.  Of course, many of those who organize
and participate in these demonstrations are motivated by sincere
religious beliefs.  By analogy, the many civil rights demonstrations in
the U.S. in the 1960's were political theater; but for many the fight
for racial equality was rooted in religious principles and other ideals.

That said, if your ta'anah is rooted in halakha, I think it is simply
inapplicable.  So far as I am aware, these demonstrations are not
generally regarded as halakhic obligations.  Moreover, as a political
choice, it is readily understandable why the demonstrations are targeted
against territorial compromise, rather than, say, hillul Shabbat.  If
you believe that territiorial compromise threatens the security of the
state, then it makes sense to achieve physical security first, before
campaigning for increased religious observance.   May we merit both
bi-mherah ve-yamenu.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:57:00 -0500
From: "Clark, Eli" <clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM>
Jewish Observer articles re feminism conference and how to treat other people

A friend brought to my attention two articles that have appeared in
recent issues of the Jewish Observer (JO) which may be of interest to
the list.

In the October issue, Rav Yehudah Henkin takes issue with the JO account
of his address to the feminism conference in New York.  The author of
the article, listmember Levi Reisman, replies to the critique.  The
debate revolves around the halakhic issue of intermingling of sexes,
especially at weddings and social occasions.  Specifically, the shitah
of the Maharshal on this issue is examined.  Also touched upon are the
issues of women reading the Megillah and learning Torah.

The November issue contains a translation of a Hebrew article written by
an elderly mehanekh in Israel who recounts two incidents in his life in
which he mistreated others and the apparent punishment he received.  The
story is a bracing one and represents powerful musar lesson.  The
translator (an acquaintance of my friend) vouches for the accuracy of
the piece.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:57:59 EST
From: Yzkd@aol.com
Re: Avodah V2 #68

In a message dated 12/5/98 11:21:45 PM EST, C-Maryles@neiu.edu writes:

> Can we include the parameters for the mitzva of onah based on what yaakov
>  gaVE to esav as gifts--the gemara in Ab Zah also learns laws of dealing
>  with goyim from Yaakov and esav--I'm sure there are others
>  Elie Ginsparg
Even in a Mishnoh B"K 92a, and see Encyclopedia Taalmudis Erech Ein L'meidin
M'kodom Matan Torah, especially footnote # 29 were he lists Seforim who are
Melakeit them.

Kol Tuv
Yitzchok Zirkind

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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:57:55 EST
From: Yzkd@aol.com
Re: Dvorim Hoassurim Mshum Sakonoh

In a message dated 12/5/98 12:04:51 PM EST, turkel@math.tau.ac.il writes:

>  Does anyone know the basis of including some of these halachot
>  but not others?
See Pri Chadash Y"D 116, and Darkei Teshovoh (ibid) S"K 44.

Kol Tuv
Yitzchok Zirkind

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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:57:52 EST
From: Yzkd@aol.com
Re: Avodah V2 #68

In a message dated 12/5/98 11:57:38 AM EST, turkel@math.tau.ac.il writes:

>  Not Zemanei tefila as that is not directly in the Torah.
>  Furthermore, that is also because of the sacrifices.

See Brochos 26b.

>  Is zerizei makdimim learned from Abraham or is that an example?

See Yumoh 28b.

Kol Tuv
Yitzchok Zirkind

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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:59:06 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
SA, Remo and Halocho

>>The Beis Yosef and the Rema were inspired by a
"ruach Hashem" and wrote a work which contains truths of which they
themselves were not conscious. Any halachic opinion not included in it has
had the door shut before it as far as halachah lemaaseh is concerned.

I recommend that anybody who is interested look at the original. The Gaon
must have had a different opinion.

Yisrael Herczeg<<

The Levush was a contemporary to both and didn't seem to hold this opnion 

Rich Wolpoe

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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:01:46 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Rambam and TT for $

RYGB writes:
You say learning Torah while receiving support to do so is not a mitzva of
TT - a very strange idea to me, <<

We were taught in yeshiva that this was the shito of the Sefardi Gedolim, 
including SA and Rambam, but that Ashkenaz held differently...

B'kitzur, it's not that everyone holds one cannot learn or teach for money, but 
it was the shito of the Rambam, and I regeret I do not have the specific source.

Rich Wolpoe

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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:35:12 EST
From: C1A1Brown@aol.com
Re: chilul Hashem and kiyumei mitzvot

>>>And, while we cannot  learn from them Halacha directly - as we cannot from
a Mishna - <<<

So what is the basis for the HALACHA of chilul Hashem "overriding" mitzvot (as
you wrote in vol65 - "Do we not see here that the mitzva of Yishuv Eretz
Yisroel may be overriden by cheshbonos of Chillul Hashem?"  Override is far
stronger a term them modified or delimited, as those who protest "yeshivish"
surely are aware, and implies cancelling or negating.)

Your views seem to change as the posts go on - from using chilul Hashem to
"override" yishuv ha'aretz, and "the
Chillul Hashem is "mechabeh" the mitzva. So, you are back to square one - my
argument." You responded to my specific query, "We don't find in Rambam or SA
a din that a mitzva should not be done if  it results in a chilul Hashem
(however you choose to define it) - what is the precedent for this claim?"
with the Rambam 3:10.  If, as you wrote yesterday, Rambam 3:10 proves we
should NOT do a miztva where a chilul Hashem is involved (and I venture that
Eli Clarke, S. Weinreb, and I all understood you the same way as our responses
were consistant), how today do you write, " I am not advocating abandoning
mitzvos for Chillul Hashem reasons"???   I'm confused.

>>>To my many detractors here who flippantly dismissed the Rambam in TT 3:10,
with all due respect, your lomdus is bewildering. <<<

I would hope you consider the responses individually.  For example, while I
agree with S. Weinreb that "Nowhere does he state that one is to refrain from
doing a specific command of HKB'H because of chillul Hashem", I disagree with
his assertion that, "The Rambam obviously holds that this is not the kiyum of
mitzvas Talmud Torah."  The Rambam in T"T starts by formulating the issur of
deriving a livlihood (with sources in mishna and gemara!) and then adds that
the issur is compounded by chilul Hashem; you have started with a mitzva and
then want to curtail it with chilul Hashem considerations.  If you have a
gemera or a Rishon that suggests this din, please cite it.

-Chaim B.  

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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:18:00 -0500
From: "Clark, Eli" <clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM>
Surrogate Motherhood

Saul Newman asks:

>for the situation of a frum woman with ovaries but no uterus-- has the
>halacha lmaaseh been worked out on the question of the fertilized embryo
>being implanted in another womb? is a non-jewish womb better?   can anyone
>provide a tamzit of who's paskened and how?

By coincidence, I happened to have co-authored an article on the subject
(available by e-mail upon request).  The primary halakhic question is
who is considered the halakhic mother -- the birth mother (i.e., the
surrogate) or the genetic mother.  Virtually all posekim agree that the
birth mother is the halakhic mother.  Hence, in the case of a Jewish
birth mother, the resulting child would be Jewish and -- if the child
did not know the identity of its halakhic mother -- could
unintentionally marry a close relative, commit incest and produce
children who are mamzerim.  Hence, le-khathillah, R. S. Z. Auerbach, R.
Elyashiv and R. E. Waldenberg prohibit surrogacy arrangements.  R.
Bleich points out as well that the production of a child in a surrogacy
arrangement may not fulfill the mitzvah of piryah ve-rivyah and
therefore questions the religious motives of a couple wishing to employ

Nevertheless, it is clear that many couples prefer to try to produce a
genetically related child than adopt.  It is also clear that the
mamzerut issue can be addressed by either using a non-Jewish woman as
surrogate or ensuring that the Jewish surrogate's identity is known to
the child.  In the article, I also address some related issues, such as
the enforceability of surrogate contracts, issues of gilluy `arayot and
hotza'at zera le-vatalah and moral considerations.  (The maternity issue
was the subject of several pieces in Tehumin and Tradition in the
mid-1980's.   R. Bleich recently addressed some of the other  issues in
the Winter 1998 Tradition.  My article is slated to appear in a
forthcoming issue of the RJJ Journal.)

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 23:18:56 +0200 (IST)
From: Yisrael Herczeg <yherczeg@netmedia.net.il>
Chazon Ish on newly found manuscripts

Eli Turkel writes:
>2. A perush like Meiri is now commonly used in many yeshivot.
>   While once upon a time it was a "new" manuscript it no longer is.
>   Does this change the approach since it has been used by talmidim for
many years?

David I. Cohen writes:
>Would the Chazon Ish ignore the Meiri whose works were unknown to many
>generations of Rishonim  and Achronim?

Until we find an explicit statement by the Chazon Ish about the Meiri, we
can only speculate. In Orach Chaim 67:12, he writes about Rabbeinu
Chananel's commentary which is published in the Vilna Shas and is at least
as popular (I think) as the Meiri. He questions its value in terms of psak
halachah because we don't know anything about the accuracy of the manuscript
from which it was copied. This is unlike the works of poskim which have been
handed down from generation to generation since their composition, and
therefore may be presumed to be reliable. Extrapolate what you will
regarding the Meiri. Keep in mind that the Chazon Ish said what he did only
with regard to paskening on the basis of new manuscripts, not with regarding
to trying our best to understand them.

Yisrael Herczeg

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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:39:19 +0000
From: Chana/Heather Luntz <Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk>
Re: Totally different sheva brochas question

Well, I have taken a while to come back to explain exactly why I was
asking this question - but:

my fiance (Robert Sassoon)'s family, particularly his mother's side live
in England.  His father's side live in Brazil (in particular his uncle
is there, who is apparently not up to travelling). My grandparents live
in South Africa (amd they also look like they will be too frail to
travel). My immediate family and their friends live in Australia. If you
add in Israel (where most of my extended family is, as well as probaby
the bulk of my friends) you pretty much cover every continent except
North America.

So it did occur to us (as something of a joke - we are *not* really
planning this), that if we threw in North America to complete the hat
trick we would have sheva brochas on all inhabited continents
(Antarctica  not being inhabited, at least not by any permanent Jews).

Physically, it might just be possible (depending on the view taken with
regard to when sheva brochas finish). This could be titled the
Travelling Sheva Brachos Problem. One solution proposed is this:  

Conduct the wedding in Australia, in order to avoid the loss of time in
flying there both back and forth, and in order to fly East to West and
avoid the dateline. Here is the itinerary: Day 1: Sunday (or perhaps
even Saturday night) conduct the wedding in Melbourne. Fly directly to
South Africa afterwards (about 15 hours flying, but you gain seven to
nine hours). Day 2: Sheva Brachos in South Africa. Fly up through the
heart of Africa to the Holy Land (ten hours, overnight, no time gain).
Day 3: Sheva Brachos in Israel. Say goodbye to friends and it's off to
London (five hours, gain of two). Day 4: Sheva Brachos in England. Get
on the plane to fly across the Atlantic (seven hours flying, but gain
five). Day 5: Conduct Sheva Brachos in Kennedy Airport (may not be
strictly necessary - I could russle up a couple of friends in New York
itself, as could he) while in transit between flights. On to Brazil (not
sure of flying time, assume about ten hours and no gain). Day 6: Sheva
Brachos in Brazil. Prepare for Shabbat. Shabbat Shalom. The penguins in
the Antarctic will just have to do without.

I suspect you also ought to be able to do it in reverse - ie have the
wedding in Brazil and work backwards.  Admittedly, it is easier from
Australia, as you gain extra time as you go, but I think it could even
be manageable the other way ( New York to London I know can be done
overnight, it is a seven hour flight plus five hours).  The one that may
cause the most problems would be the Johannesburg-Melbourne leg, but
even that might well be doable (just). Although I think that you might
have more problems with shabbat that way, which might render it

But if you can cross the dateline from Brazil to Australia and not lose
a sheva brochas day, then you ought to be able to do it whichever way
(ie starting in Israel, moving round London, New York, Brazil,
Melbourne, Johannesburg - and stopping for shabbat on whichever day it
occurs).  The only thing is, that when you do it in the round like that,
you seem you gain incrementally, and then don't lose over the dateline,
which seems a bit like cheating. SO I wonder if the ignore the dateline
position can be correct.

Anyway, the further reason for my message is to let everybody know, if
it wasn't already obvious, that I am engaged to Robert Sassoon, of
London. Mazel Tov



PS if you have access to the web, our engagement website can be found


In message , Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> writes
>In R' David Pahmer's transcription of R' Herschell Schachter's shiurim on
>the IDL he deals with Shiv'a Neki'im for those who cross the IDL. If I
>remember correctly - although my own bias may be creeping in here - he
>says we follow in such areas absolute counts of seven vs. dates. 
>Logically, Sheva Berachos should follow the same parameters. 
>On Sat, 10 Oct 1998, Chana/Heather Luntz wrote:
>> Does anybody know what happens with sheva brochas if the chossen-kala
>> cross the international date line?
>> But these are general chiyuvim.  What about sheva brochas?  Does that go
>> according to the count of the chossen-kala?  How about a bris?  What if
>> the baby was born on Friday in LA, but flew to Australia on Sunday, so
>> that what is Friday according to the count of the baby is actually
>> Shabbas where he is now? Has anybody seen anything written (or spoken)
>> on this?
>> Moed tov
>> Chana

Chana/Heather Luntz

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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:32:21 EST
From: Yzkd@aol.com
Re: Surrogate Motherhood

In a message dated 12/8/98 4:21:06 PM EST, clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM writes:

>  R.
>  Bleich points out as well that the production of a child in a surrogacy
>  arrangement may not fulfill the mitzvah of piryah ve-rivyah and
>  therefore questions the religious motives of a couple wishing to employ
>  surrogacy.

There is discussion WRT a Mamzeir see Minchas Chinuch first Mitzvoh, but in a
case where no Aveiroh was done why would the father not fulfill Pru Urvu,
however for a BN that his whole obligation is Lo Sohu Bro'oh there should be
Lich'oroh no question that he fulfills his obligation.

>  It is also clear that the
>  mamzerut issue can be addressed by either using a non-Jewish woman as
>  surrogate 

Why would this not be in the same category of Boeil Aramis which the Rambam
(Hil. Issurei Bioh 21) says that it causes a possible Jewish child to be non
Jewish (the fact that the child will be converted doesn't change the Halacha

Kol Tuv
Yitzchok Zirkind

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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:54:30 EST
From: Yzkd@aol.com
Re: Totally different sheva brochas question

In a message dated 12/8/98 4:46:00 PM EST, Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk

>  Anyway, the further reason for my message is to let everybody know, if
>  it wasn't already obvious, that I am engaged to Robert Sassoon, of
>  London. 

Mazal Tov Mazal Tov, may the wedding be B'sha Tova Umutzlachas.

>  In message , Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer
>  <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> writes
>  >In R' David Pahmer's transcription of R' Herschell Schachter's shiurim on
>  >the IDL he deals with Shiv'a Neki'im for those who cross the IDL. If I
>  >remember correctly - although my own bias may be creeping in here - he
>  >says we follow in such areas absolute counts of seven vs. dates. 
>  >Logically, Sheva Berachos should follow the same parameters. 
>  >
>  >YGB

While WRT Niddus this is a complicated issue, WRT Sheva Brochos I don't see an
issue, OTOH Shivas Yemei Hamishteh is a different issue.

Kol Tuv
Yitzchok Zirkind

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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 18:06:57 -0600 (CST)
From: "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Re: Course Description (fwd)

Warning! Warning! For those who disapprove of Humor on Avodah, skip this
post! (Someone ta'ana'ed to me its serious social satire. I don't think
so, just plain funny!)


Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

                Congregation Shomrei Emunah
                  Adult Education Committee
         Special Seminar Series on Shadchanus

Shomrei Emunah, baruch Hashem, has reached an important life-cycle.  Many of
the members are becoming involved in the "shidduch parsha" for their sons and
daughters of marriageable age (@17.5 +/- 10 years).  In recognition of the
issues that such a situation raises, the shul will be offering a series of
seminars for parents of prospective chassanim and kallahs.  This seminar will
include the following workshops given by noted local community experts:

*Getting your daughter into the "Right" Seminary

*Top Ten Girls Seminaries in Israel to Avoid

*Seminary Directors in Israel -- Who Died and Made Them Kings?

*Application fees to seminaries in Israel: Larceny or an investment in your

* How to get your son into the top ten at Lakewood

*Yeshivonics: Translating grammatically incorrect speech into English

*Twenty-one and still single: Is she over-the-hill or Just Full of Shidduch?

*Getting top dollar for your Led Zeppelin and Grateful Dead tapes:  A guide to
local flea markets

*Going back in time:  How to Get YU and NCSY to disappear from your secret

*The most appropriate sefarim to have on your bookshelf (note: The first 50
registrants will be entered into a drawing for a ?50 gift certificate at
Shabsi's Judaica.)

* How to obtain those Yeshiva Transcripts you never had

*How to master Shas in one week

*Lomdus 101:  Is it Possible to shlug-up the "nice boy", "nice girl" Gezara

*Etymology 353:  A historical analysis of the word "nice" losing all meaning

*Chumra crash course:  A primer to Yoshon, Cholov/Pas Yisrael, Gebrokhts, and
separate seating/standing

*Your son-in-law the Doctor?!!  How to get to Shappard Pratt in a hurry.

*Understanding the hidden financial value of the "Masters in Education" degree

*Kitchen remodeling:  How to give an illusion of the double sink using mirrors
from Home Depot

*Post Hoc Yichus Acquisition:  Creative and alternative approaches to tracing
and documenting your family tree

*Shinui Shem:  Legally changing your daughter's last name to something more

*Financial Planning I: Which set of books to show the (prospective) Mechutanim

*Financial Planning II: How to go into Hock with dignity and still cover your
Kol Nidre Pledge

*Financial Planning III: Pre-Shidduch financial negotiation tactics

*Financial Planning IV:  Automatic payroll withdrawal to cross country manor
and the Fountainbleu

*Playing Hardball:  Calling your future Mechutan's bluff

*Appreciating the Kollel work ethic:  A sociological analysis of the 9 am
weekday Minyan at the Agudah

*How to hand over your credit cards and car keys with a smile

* Progressive stupidity in the Shidduch-Parsha parent: Why have we lost
control of the situation?

*Understanding your daughter's fantasy of a $3000 piece of fake hair on her
head: A psychiatric case study

*Narishkeit Update:  A compilation of the New "That's-Just- the-Way-it's-Done"
Laws of the past 10 years

*Fashion Update I: A guide to color-coded snoods

*Fashion Update II: Wardrobe Rules for Vorts and Sheva Brochos

*Your first grandchild next year?:  A practical Shidduch Timetable for your
dating child

*How to look at a 20-year-old boy in a black hat without cracking up: Behavior
modification techniques for the 90's

*Understanding Shidduch Love in the current generation: It's not (in) your
father's Oldsmobile

*How to break it off with a guy who expresses an interest in earning a living

*Understanding Twenty-First Century Demographics: Everyone's Mechanech

*Biting the Bullet:  Our obligation to continue support to schools with

Do you want to join?

     Application Questionnaire into the Eligibility into the "Shidduch Parsha"

Introduction:  Not everyone is zocheh to enter to enter into the "shidduch
parsha."  It is a madrega that must be earned. While anyone can "go out" or
date, you must qualify to be part of our exclusive network of shidduch parsha
players (a.k.a., The Club).  Based on your responses to the following
questionnaire, we will determine whether you qualify or not. If you should
qualify, you must agree to our code of conduct and play the game by OUR RULES.
At that point, we will periodically re-evaluate whether you and your parents
are playing by THE RULES.  If not, we can revoke your membership.  Then you
and your parents will be "on your own".  This means that you could end up
making your own shidduch decision, using your own common sense (rachmana
litzlan), rather than with the hadracha of shadchanim affiliated with THE

Please respond to the following in an honest way (we have ways of finding out
whether you are telling the truth):

*Which best describes the way your mother covers her hair?
(circle one):
a. hat on top of shaitel on top of bald shaved hea
b. hat on top of shaitel on top of hair
c. just a shaitel
d. bullet-proof tichel
e. snood
f. hat with snoodette
g. hat or beret
h. au naturale

* Which best describes the way your way Rabbi covers his head:
a. streimel or spuddik
b. hat on top of yarmulka
c. just a shaitel and a yarmulka

*Does your father wear a hat? (if yes, what color is it and how much did he
pay for it?)
_______Yes               _________No
Color_________         Cost_________

*Please indicate the material and size of your father's yarmulka (measure to
nearest inch of diameter)
Material____________    Size___________

*Which best describes where your family usually takes vacations to?
a. Boro Park
b. Lakewood
c. Monsey
d. Eretz Yisrael
e. down d'Ocean, the Bahamas, or any other makom pritzus

*Prior to going out, have you ever held a "civilized conversation" with a
member of the opposite sex who was your age (note: "civilized conversation"
means more than 3.5 seconds).
____________Yes           _____________No

*Which establishment typifies where your family does most of its shopping?
a. Seven Mile Market
b. Mirakle Market
c. Food King
d. Edmart

*What sorts of bumper stickers does your family put on theircar?
a. Moshiach-related topics
b. lashon harah-related topics
c. Shabbos-related topics
d. Israeli-political topics
e. Eat Bertha's Mussels

*Which best describes your family's approach to Yoshon?
a. We don't eat it year round
b. We are not Makpid year-round
c. We don't eat it until after Pesach
d. We prefer not to eat stale stuff, thank you
e. What's "Yoshon"?

*Which of the following best describes the hashgachas your family accepts?
a. Star-K 99% of the time; however, we will drink tap water
b. Star-K exclusively; we even take showers with Star-K bottled water
c. OU exclusively
d. only the questionable ones
e. We just look at the ingredients to make sure there is nothing objectionable

*Does your father have a real job (real job is defined as anything other than
chinuch, kollel, or affiliated parnasah)?
_________Yes         __________No

*Does your mother have a real job?
_________Yes         __________No

(if either of the above two questions is a "yes", please enclose copies of
W-2's and tax returns)

*Have either of your parent's participated in NCSY? (If yes, please stop and
put this application in shaimos)
_________Yes             ___________No

* Have either of your parents taken courses in a secular college? (If yes,
please stop and put this application in shaimos)
__________Yes           _____________No

*Have either of your parents attended Yeshiva University or Stern College? (If
yes, Please stop and put this application in shaimos)
___________Yes         ______________No

*How do your parents refer to each other when communicating?
a. "honey" or "dear"
b. as "Mr. Ploni" or "Mrs. Ploni"
c. in third person (e.g., "Would my husband like his chulent now?" or "Can the
Rebbitzen bring me my chulent now?")
d. pas nisht for either of my parents to talk to anyone of the opposite sex

*Does your family's kitchen have one or two sinks? ovens?
__________# of sinks          ____________# of ovens

*Please respond in two sentences or more how you would respond to the
following situations and dilemmas:

*Shmerill comes to the door to pick you up for a date.  Your father answers
the door wearing a t-shirt and shorts.  Your Bais Yaakov teacher once said
that there are times when it is O.K. to lie.  You consider telling Shmerill
that your father is merely the guy who mows the lawn.  What would you do?

*A boy calls you for the first time.  You were expecting someone with a good
frum name; however he uses an English name to identify himself.  What would
you do?

*On a date, the boy admits that he once had aspirations of earning a
legitimate college degree.  What would you do?

*On a date, the boy shows up without a hat.  However, he apologizes and says
that your dog pooped on it after it fell off onto the sidewalk.  He shows you
the hat.  What would you do?

*On a date, Velvel states that he only wants to be supported to learn in
Kollel for 5 years.  After that, he only wants to be supported.  What would
you do?

*You go out with a boy twice and really like him.  After that, the shadchan
calls and proposes to you on his behalf.  What would you do?

*On a third date, the boy reveals that he has found out from the shadchan that
your grandfather never completed Shas and he wants to break it off.  What
would you do?

*You are set up with a Chassidic bochur who only dresses in long coats and
knickers.  On the first date, you feel his payos are not long enough.  What
would you do?



                      !!Please Note Change of Address!!

  Hershel & Susan Ginsburg               Internet: ginzy@netvision.net.il
  P.O. Box 1058 / Rimon St. 27           Phone: 972-2-993-8134
  Efrat,  90435                          FAX:  972-2-993-8122


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