Avodah Mailing List

Volume 02 : Number 027

Wednesday, October 21 1998

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:06:41 -0400
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject:
Re[2]: Kehillah


     Tangential to this, just how many communities today i nNorht America 
     have something akin to the traditional Kehillo?  I can think of 
     several cahssidic communities as candidtates (eg New Sqaure perhaps)?  
      
     For non-Chassidic communities - maybe Deal or perhaps Elizabeth, NJ 
     (expecialyl when the late Seniro Rabbi Teitz was alive and well))
     
     
     Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Kehillah 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at Tcpgate
Date:    10/20/98 3:59 PM


In a message dated 98-10-20 15:41:38 EDT, you write:
     
<< 
 The kehillah developed in the Middle Ages as a form of Jewish communal 
 organization.  The kehillah collected taxes, administered the community 
 chest and had the power to regulate public and private behavior. 
 Leadership was usually in the hands of a number of prominent citizens 
 (often 7, as in shiv'ah tovei ha-ir) with the rabbi usually exercising a 
 veto and sometimes more. Legislation and choice of leaders was usually 
 subject to popular vote, which was more or less democratic (on this, see 
 my article in the forthcoming issue of the Torah U-Mada Journal).
     
 Thus, as R. YGB notes, there is very little in common between the 
 kehillah and the contemporary synagogue, which serves primarily as a 
 house of worship.  In those communities in which a single synagogue 
 serves the entire Orthodox community and binds them together, there 
 would be a basis to look at the halakhot regarding kehillah governance 
 for a precedent regarding the governance of the shul.  But I doubt such 
 halakhot would be binding.
     
 Kol tuv,
     
 Eli Clark
  >>
So in essence it sounds like the formation of a kehilla was a voluntary 
"ahalachic" process(ie halacha neither encourages nor discourages this type of 
process). Put another way-if a new orthodox community were being formed in a 
remote site and asked for guidance on self governance, what would halacha say?
     
Kol tuv
Joel Rich
     


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Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:39:03 +0200
From: Daniel Eidensohn <yadmoshe@netmedia.net.il>
Subject:
Re: Shulchan Aruch & Truth


Eli Turkel wrote:

> But then again Rav Karo's rules are also general guidelines not absolute rules.
> I understand that Chazon Ish has given a list of cases where the
> Shulchan Arukh paskens against his rules.
>
> I don't believe that any posek wants to be a mere bean counter.
> I suspect that almost all poskin who give rules bend those rules when
> they personally feel strongly about a certain position.

Rav Yosef Karo apparently did not keep to his original plan and ended up following
the Rambam more than was to be expected.. He does explicitly state, however, that
his strategy was to be a "bean counter". He was also explicitly criticized by the
Yam Shel Shlomo and others for being a "bean counter". Something which I don't
think you will find prior to the Shulchan Aruch.

                                                    Daniel Eidensohn


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Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:09:23 +0200
From: Daniel Eidensohn <yadmoshe@netmedia.net.il>
Subject:
Re: Shaas Kashruso


richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

>       So what about someone who was frum who goes off the wrong way, does
>      that diminsh his statments beshaas hashrusso?
>

There is a discussion in the Igros Moshe E.H. I #96 which discusses a
famous singing rabbi. Question being whether the songs he composed in
his early days when his conduct was beyond reproach should be prohibited
because now his conduct is not above reproach. In the course of the
discussion Reb Moshe notes that the decrees of Yochanon Cohen Gadol were
not thrown out after he became an apikorus.

Regarding the question as to what a "former baal tshuva" was. A baal
tshuva who is no longer different in his conduct, appearance and thought
ceases to be viewed as a baal tshuva - except perhaps for shiduchim.
There is still a need to treat him him with greater sensitivity and
consideration than an FFB. Classic case is Reish Lakish (according to
Doros HaRishonim but not according to Tosfos B.M. 84a).

                                   Daniel Eidensohn


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Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:34:11 -0400
From: mluchins@Zweig-Dimenna.com
Subject:
Titles


     I think you have 3 separate questions (at least), and I'll try to
answer them.

     1)   I was always under the impression that any qualified rav could
give another qualified person smicha regardless of whether they had learnt
"by" them x,y and z.  I have had several learned friends go into chinuch
and kiruv who were told they could use the title rabbi.

     2)   Your neighbor was probably just trying to be polite & I don't
think we should knock that (should teenagers call married non-related
adults by there first name?).  I know it's a stretch, but Tosfos (The Rebbi
Akiva gemara - 56. or 58. - the limitations of not having a shas at work)
in Kesuvos says that any one who is holech lbeis rav is omeid lihois adam
gadol, and elsewhere we know kol haomeid to be "x" is considered "X".

     3)   Having learnt in Ner Yisroel I can inform you that there are
several levels of smechah.  I can also assure you that you have to learn a
lot to get them.




Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:52:54 +0000 (GMT)
From: Michael Frankel <FRANKEL@hq.dswa.mil>
Subject: Rabbinic titles, new question

I've recently encountered two separate instances of titular inflation, and,
being generally somewhat slow to espy new trends in cultural subgroups (I
prefer that formulation, my wife's kindliest characterizations would
probably
include adjectives such as "insensitive" or "oblivious"), wondered whether
these were purely local anomalies or was i missing (yet again) a
sociological
breakthrough. the first instance - about 2 months ago - involved my
teenaged
daughter who referred, en passant, to one of our friend's children - a boy
learning in a local kolel at the time - and was corrected by the woman with
whom she was conversing (a "rebbe's wife") and told that one should rather,
out
of respect, refer to our neighbor's son as "Rabbi xxx", though to our quite
certain knowledge he did not have semichoh, or even have begun a formal
program
leading to such a goal.  We had previously noticed such a phenomenon in a
school context, where the unsemichoh'd would still be referred to as "R."
but,
not caring very much,  hadn't thought too much about it and could easily
see
the arguments which might be made for doing so - especially in the younger
grades.  Just last week however, someone told me, and i have no idea what
the
accuracy might be, that at the local regional yeshiva (ner yisroel) boys
may
be granted the title "R." at some point, though they may not yet have
learnt
(at least) yoreh de'oh and do not not have semichoh either. this was also
called  by our data source a "first level" title.  On my natural instinct
that
a single datum is a random fluctuation while two bespeak global conspiracy,
my
question - is there something more fundamental going on? is this part of a
more
widespread trend to raise the relative status of a social grouping?  or was
my
data source confused? any replies by those more familiar with the current
cultural anthropology of the yeshivoh velt much appreciated.

Mechy Frankel                 frankel@hq.dswa.mil

------------------------------


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Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:34:36 -0400
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject:
Shulchan Aruch & Truth


     Dear List,
        to be truthful,
     I will need to re-read the hakdomo to be sure.
     
     My hashkofo/peshat in all this is simple, bean counting took place when 
     there was a nagging doubt which way to go.  When the BY/SA was thoroughly 
     convinced, he didn't rely on it (or feel the need to rely on it) or was 
     unconsciously oblivious to the fact that there was a serious machlokes.awcw
     
     I'll give a poor but useful illustration;  The Mishno Bruro paskens 
     that we should say lehisatef b'tzitzis (Sh'vo) and not BAtzitzis 
     (patach). according to Shaar Tsiyun with is al pi ROV ACHARONIM
     
     Q: Did MB actually take a count?  A: I doubt it.  My guess is that he was 
     convinced of his shito and saw enough Acharonim who agreed.
     
     Q: Did SA actually submit every Halocho pesukko to his hypothetical 
     Beis Din?  A: I doubt it.  I (humbly) presume he did so ONLY when he 
     felt there was some nagging doubt.
     
     Q: What caused MB and SA to be so convinced: A: I don't know.  The 
     "ususal; suspects
     1) minhog / Mesorah, (EG my rebbe told me nobody paskens liek this 
     Rosh or that Rambam)
     2) Strong gut feeling. (after learning dozens of Rishonim this "feel 
     right"
     
     On the other hand, if they felt the need to argue the point, they 
     would have conceded the room for doubt - and that doubt probably would 
     have triggered "bean counting"
     
     So I concur that no poseik wants to be a "bean counter" I think this 
     device might have been resorted to in those cases where the poseik was 
     not overshelmingly convinced of one side or the other.  I think when 
     they were convinced they didn't count the beans.
     
     Regards,
     Rich Wolpoe
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Shulchan Aruch & Truth 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at Tcpgate 
Date:    10/20/98 3:39 PM
     
     
     
Eli Turkel wrote:
     
> But then again Rav Karo's rules are also general guidelines not absolute 
rules. > I understand that Chazon Ish has given a list of cases where the 
> Shulchan Arukh paskens against his rules. 
>
> I don't believe that any posek wants to be a mere bean counter.
> I suspect that almost all poskin who give rules bend those rules when 
> they personally feel strongly about a certain position.
     
Rav Yosef Karo apparently did not keep to his original plan and ended up 
following the Rambam more than was to be expected.. He does explicitly state, 
however, that his strategy was to be a "bean counter". He was also explicitly 
criticized by the Yam Shel Shlomo and others for being a "bean counter". 
Something which I don't think you will find prior to the Shulchan Aruch.
     
                                                    Daniel Eidensohn
     
     
     
     


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Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 20:38:15 EDT
From: C1A1Brown@aol.com
Subject:
Re: malachim, adam kodem hacheit


I<< Nafka mina l'havanas ha'beri'ah ve'chochmas Hashem Yisborach.
  Ever read the first Sha'ar of Nefesh HaChaim? L'mai nafka mina? >>

As far as I know there is absolutely no chiyuv to ponder the "celestial
plumbing system", as a Rebbe of mine referred to it.  If such contemplation
serves to enhance your yirat shamayim, committment, or ahavas HAshem, then it
serves an instrumental need, but is of no independent value.  Read the intro.
to Moreh Nevuchim or Tanya, to take two examples on different ends of the
spectrum, - both offer justifications as tools for religious guidence -
neither expresses the thought that knowldege (or havanah) of metaphysics or
'nistar' is an end to itself.   

Regarding the R' Tzaddok that Adam had a "shem Yisreal" -  I still don't see
(1) proof of such an idea (2) what the words mean [certainly not chiyuvim of
mitzvot, so I guess there is some other criteria for a shem Yisrael] (3)
Yisreal af al pi she-chatath yisreal hu - I guess you will make eitz hada'as
an exception to the rule?  

CB


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Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:03:02 -0400
From: gershon.dubin@juno.com (Gershon Dubin)
Subject:
Kehila


> Thus, as R. YGB notes, there is very little in common between the
> kehillah and the contemporary synagogue, which serves primarily as a
> house of worship.  In those communities in which a single synagogue
> serves the entire Orthodox community and binds them together, there
> would be a basis to look at the halakhot regarding kehillah 
>governance for a precedent regarding the governance of the shul.  But I
doubt such halakhot would be binding.
	Why not?  This would be a classic application of "minhag hamakom",  and
many of the takanos which bnei ha'ir are empowered by the Gemara to
institute.  Are you saying that without power to punish offenders the
halachos wouldn't be binding?

Gershon

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Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:55:55 -0400
From: gershon.dubin@juno.com (Gershon Dubin)
Subject:
Rav/Reb/Rabbi


>     Many Eastern European Yid'n use the informat title Reb Ploni 
>without meaning to confer Semicho.  
		Seems to me we've been this way before,  as in the "Reb Moshe
Feinstein" issue.  Let's not do that again <g>.
     
>     This Yeshiva Student probably got a similar title.  Sort of Rabbi 
>     honoris causa.  They called this title Rav umanhig or Rav 
>     b'Yisreol instead of Yoreh Yoreh.
		This is,  in some circles,  an official semicha.  In others,  it is
sort of understood for people who have achieved a certain level of
learning, without having undertaken the traditional semicah curriculum. 
The "Rav Umanhig" is sometimes referred to in jest as a driver's license.

Gershon

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Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:59:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject:
Re: malachim, adam kodem hacheit


On Tue, 20 Oct 1998 C1A1Brown@aol.com wrote:

> I<< Nafka mina l'havanas ha'beri'ah ve'chochmas Hashem Yisborach.
>   Ever read the first Sha'ar of Nefesh HaChaim? L'mai nafka mina? >>
> 
> As far as I know there is absolutely no chiyuv to ponder the "celestial
> plumbing system", as a Rebbe of mine referred to it.  If such

Why is there any less of a chiyuv to know the "celestial plumbing system"
than to know Mesechta Nega'im?

> contemplation serves to enhance your yirat shamayim, committment, or
> ahavas HAshem, then it serves an instrumental need, but is of no
> independent value.  Read the intro.  to Moreh Nevuchim or Tanya, to take

What is "independent value?" Is Talmud Torah not a value? In and of
itself, whether there is a nafka mina or not?

> two examples on different ends of the spectrum, - both offer
> justifications as tools for religious guidence - neither expresses the
> thought that knowldege (or havanah) of metaphysics or 'nistar' is an end
> to itself. 
> 
> Regarding the R' Tzaddok that Adam had a "shem Yisreal" - I still don't
> see (1) proof of such an idea (2) what the words mean [certainly not

There is no "proof." Evidence may be mustered from the fact that his
nisayon was a "chok" - in essence ma'achalos assuros, while all mitzvos
Bnei Noach are mishpatim. As the seforim write, all the mitzvos which were
to be given were rolled into the one nisayon.

In addition, he was considered "mahul," and later a "mosheich b'orlaso."
Many of us are familiar with the Brisker Rav who says that a "shem orla"
is contingent on a tzivui, so Adam must have had a sembelance of a tzivui.
I am sure others on the list can muster evidence l'kan u'l'kan.

> chiyuvim of mitzvot, so I guess there is some other criteria for a shem
> Yisrael] (3)  Yisreal af al pi she-chatath yisreal hu - I guess you will
> make eitz hada'as an exception to the rule? 
> 
> CB
> 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila


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Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:58:24 +0200 (IST)
From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
Subject:
titles


Mechy asks about the inflation of titles. No doubt he is correct as
everyone today is harav hagaon and not just rabbi.
I remember once from Rav Soloveitchik that he said that the number of
titles is inverse to the knowledge of the person.

However, there is an objective reason for some of this.
When I went to YU everyone who stayed long enough eventually learned
Yoreh Deah and after passing the exams became "rabbi".
Especially in Israel, there are very few places that have formal
programs that lead to semichah. A common practice is to learn on one's
own and then to take exams either from the rabbanut or else from
three recognized scholars. 

The result of this is that one gets semicha only if one wants to become
a posek or dayan. I doubt that most roshei yeshiva have a formal semichah.
The story goes that the Chafetz Chaim did not have semichah when he
wrote the mishnah berurah. Late in life he wanted to travel to an
agudah convention and needed a passport. On the application it requested
his profession. He put down rabbi but then decided that was a lie
and so got semichah from some other gedolim.

I know that Rav Soloveitchik got semicha from Rav Chaim Ozer when he
wanted to go to America and was told that Semicha was necessary there
to get a rabbinical position.

The upshot is that many rebbeim in high school and even beyond do not
hace formal Yoreh Deah Semicha. It would not be correct for a student to
call his rebbe by "mister" and so "rav" is a better title even though
not formally correct.

Eli Turkel

p.s.
It would be appreciated if people did not quote the entire question in
responding. I frequently get a question followed immediately by
someone else's response quoting the entire question all over.


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Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:29:42 -0400
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject:
Re[2]: malachim, adam kodem hacheit


     Indeed.  A havono of Odom kodem hacheit can be a useful tool in 
     getting close to Hashem.  There are  metaphysical techniques that 
     concsiouly or unconsciouly attempt to get people back into that 
     state-of-mind so to speak.  
     
     I sense that this is more in the area of Nistar than Nigleh.
     
     Rcih Wolpoe
     


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: malachim, adam kodem hacheit 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at Tcpgate
Date:    10/20/98 8:38 PM


...  If such contemplation serves to enhance your yirat shamayim, committment, 
or ahavas HAshem, then it serves an instrumental need, but is of no independent 
value.  ..
     


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Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:45:10 -0400
From: "Michael Poppers" <MPoppers@kayescholer.com>
Subject:
Re: titles


[Reb :-] Richard:
>  The German Jews have (had?) a minhog of recongnizing a worthy person
     with the title Chover, which was an honor but qutie a bit shy of
     Rabbi. <
Have, not had -- there still are a few k'hillos out there which will do so.
BTW, while receiving such a title is quite an honor (and receiving
"Moreinu" even more so), I believe it usually relates "only" to the
recipient's level of knowledge and dedication to learning and is publicly
used "only" when the recipient is oleh laTorah; members of the set of oskei
b'tzorchei tzibbur (who certainly can and do intersect with the set of
Chaveirim) are recognized each and every Shabbos and YT & need no title to
be considered VIP[s] of their communities.

                                         Michael


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Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:36:44 -0500
From: "Steve. Katz" <katzco@sprintmail.com>
Subject:
Re: Titles


Come to Skokie where rav umanhig is the most often granted s'micha and 
where you can even get yoreh yoreh without having learned yoreh deah or 
taken a bechinah.
steve   katzco@sprintmail.com


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Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:42:57 -0500
From: "Steve. Katz" <katzco@sprintmail.com>
Subject:
T'cheles Revisited


I know a number of gentlemen who wear t'cheles on their talis gadol and 
not on their talis katan.
I also know a number of gentlemen who wear t'cheles on the talis katan 
and not on their talis gadol.
Who has a good teretz?

steve        katzco@sprintmail.com


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Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 16:57:41 -0400
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject:
Re[2]: Titles


     Interesting.
     
     I was thinking of doing Yadin Yadin, do they have that there too <G>
     
     Rich W.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Titles 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at Tcpgate
Date:    10/21/98 11:36 AM


Come to Skokie where rav umanhig is the most often granted s'micha and 
where you can even get yoreh yoreh without having learned yoreh deah or 
taken a bechinah.
steve   katzco@sprintmail.com
     
     
     


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Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:00:56 -0400
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject:
Re: T'cheles Revisited


     I once heard something like this:
     
     That some people (based on a Gro I believe) davka wear cotton arba 
     confos as if to go out of their way to be meakyem the wool 
     (mid'oreiso) in their Talis Gadol and do miderabbon  on their Talis 
     Koton.... therefore, perhaps, the techiles people are choshesh to be 
     yotsei yedei shneihem
     
     Also, perhaps it is not economically feasible to do both.
     
     Rich Wolpoe
     
     


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: T'cheles Revisited 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at Tcpgate
Date:    10/21/98 11:42 AM


I know a number of gentlemen who wear t'cheles on their talis gadol and 
not on their talis katan.
I also know a number of gentlemen who wear t'cheles on the talis katan 
and not on their talis gadol.
Who has a good teretz?
     
steve        katzco@sprintmail.com
     
     


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Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 16:13:37 -0400
From: "Pechman, Abraham" <APechman@mwellp.com>
Subject:
RE: T'cheles Revisited


Even if it's not cost effective to do both (btw, how much do tcheyles tzisis
cost?), shouldn't there be a logic to put them on either the tallis koton
(todir?) or the tallis gadol (hidur?), but not to leave it up to an
individual's own predilection?

Avi Pechman

> -----Original Message-----
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com [mailto:richard_wolpoe@ibi.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 5:01 PM
> To: avodah@aishdas.org
> Subject: Re: T'cheles Revisited 
> 
> 
>      I once heard something like this:
>      
>      That some people (based on a Gro I believe) davka wear 
> cotton arba 
>      confos as if to go out of their way to be meakyem the wool 
>      (mid'oreiso) in their Talis Gadol and do miderabbon  on 
> their Talis 
>      Koton.... therefore, perhaps, the techiles people are 
> choshesh to be 
>      yotsei yedei shneihem
>      
>      Also, perhaps it is not economically feasible to do both.
>      
>      Rich Wolpoe
>      
>      
> 
> 
> ______________________________ Reply Separator 
> _________________________________
> Subject: T'cheles Revisited 
> Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at Tcpgate
> Date:    10/21/98 11:42 AM
> 
> 
> I know a number of gentlemen who wear t'cheles on their talis 
> gadol and 
> not on their talis katan.
> I also know a number of gentlemen who wear t'cheles on the 
> talis katan 
> and not on their talis gadol.
> Who has a good teretz?
>      
> steve        katzco@sprintmail.com
>      
>      
> 


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