Avodah Mailing List

Volume 02 : Number 011

Tuesday, October 6 1998

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 13:29:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: Shoshanah Bechhofer <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Re: Fwd: Avodah V2 #9-re: techeiles

> Recently, in discussing the reply of the Beis HaLevi to the Radziner that the
> identity of techeilis needs a masorah and once it's lost it can only be
> restored by a navi, Rav Ahron Soloveichek quoted Rav Chaim Brisker as saying
> that if someone would, today, wear what is claimed to be techeilis on his
> beged, he would be in the category of 'hapatur min hadavar veoseihu nikra
> hedyot.'

It is a pity that R' Aharon (or R' Chaim) would dismiss so "ke'le'achar
yad") an area in which there is much compelling evidence. The Beis Ha'Levi,
btw, as recorded by the Radzhiner himself, said something entirely different
than that which is attributed to him in "Shiurim l'Zecher Avi Mori." Seeing
that one of the Rav's primary talmidim, R' Herschel Schachter, is one of the
prime backers of techeles, I think he must have found some way to reconcile

BTW, the great chiddush that a mesora can only be restored al pi navi, would
of course, preclude the consumption of turkey, as I think we have once
discussed, and probably several other observances.


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Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:56:36 -0300
From: sami@vertex.com.br

AV>I agree you would get a variety of responses. The problem with the negative
AV>influence issue is that it also means that those "less observant" are denied
AV>positive influence and the 'more observant' are given the message to "stick
AV>your own kind". This may be the message the school wants to give but
AV>eventually the definition of less observant may become you(fairly or not)! T
AV>proper balance is a very difficult one and continues  in a state of dynamic
AV>tension( L"ad).

 You know, I've been readings these discusions about Conservative or
Reform heresy, and I can't understand how people who call other jews
(their brothers) "heretics" don't blush....
 I studied for many years at Orthodox yeshivot and I don't feel I'm
"more" or "less" observant than anyone else.
 I ask: who are we, simple human beings, to judge another's faith or
ways to get to the Almighty? Do we have this right?
  Where's is the principle of Ahavat Israel we've learnt since we're
  Who has the right to handle a flag of a "true judaism"?
  Orthodox, Conservative, Reform...we're all human beings....with
positive and negative points....
   Do you remember what's written on Midrash Tehilim: "yesh mishehu
sheomer laacherim la'asot veeino osse..." There's always somedy who
tells other what to do and even he doens't do....
  It happens everywhere, no matter if we're Conservative, Reform or
  Although my parents are orthodox, I'm a Conservative Brazilian guy who
urge you to stop this ridiculous discussion.....
  We don't need a "milchemet bein achim" anymore....

 Chag Samech to you all

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Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 18:04:48 EDT
From: kennethgmiller@juno.com (Kenneth G Miller)
Re: Needing a gadol

I have found the recent discussion about the history of women's mezuman
quite interesting. Would anyone be interested in explaining, along
similar lines, how women relate to mayim acharonim?

Akiva Miller

You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

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Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:40:56 +0100
From: Chana/Heather Luntz <Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk>
Re: Lack of mesorah and consistency

In message , cbrown@bestware.com writes
>>>>YGB:Certainly. But, there is a vicious cycle here. You must be an
>established Posek before you get to establish psak.<<<
>YGB felt the need for precedent bec.: >>a. This is in the chiddushim, not
>the teshuvos. b. It seems to me, that if the Chasam Sofer held that way
>l'ma'aseh, there would have been an extant mesorah to use women as ponim
>chadashos. (and I won't deal with the rest)<<

This last is the bit that has been bothering me.  I understand the
concept of a mesorah in relation to techeles - ie either your father and
your father's father had all white strings or some blue ones, but I just
don't understand the concept of a mesorah in relation to women as ponim

After all, any case of using one lonesome *man* as ponim chadashos is,
by definition, a bidieved situation.  If you, in organising your sheva
brochas - only invite one single new person, and thereby run the risk
that they will have an emmergency, or not be able to come for some
reason, then, it seems to me, you are an organisational idiot.  You are
basically leaving the chances of your sheva brochas in the hands of
somebody who (in most cases) was not even important enough to the
chosson kala to come to the wedding!!  I fail to believe that *anywhere*
you will find a jewish baalabos/baalabooster that is that stupid (or at
least a community of them).  

Now arguably you *may* be able to glean the position on women as panim
chadashos in a community by how many extras are invited, and of what
sex.  That is, if you take the average "safe" number as, say, three, if
people are inviting three new people of a mixture of sexes, then that
*may* indicate that they are prepared to rely on one woman if the worst
happens, while if they are makpid to invite three men, then presumably
they would not.  On the other hand, the safe number will depend on how
risktaking a baalabos/baalabooster you are (and the nature of the people
you are inviting - if I was inviting friends who were all doing their
medical internship, I would probably want half a dozen, because of the
regularity of non-show for any given event) so it may not be so easy to
get a fix on what precise risk a given person/community is protecting

>- -CB

Moed tov


Chana/Heather Luntz

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