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	<title>Comments on: The Kuzari Proof, part I</title>
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	<description>Keeping values and meaning in focus.</description>
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		<title>By: micha</title>
		<link>http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2004/12/kuzari-proof-part-i.shtml/comment-page-1#comment-57228</link>
		<dc:creator>micha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aishdas.org/asp2/?p=17#comment-57228</guid>
		<description>I took the piece you quote to be talking about science, math, and areas of philosophy more amenable to proof. But not religion. IOW, if we prove that sunset is caused by the earth&#039;s spin, then obviously the story of Yehoshua stopping the sun isn&#039;t literal and contradicting what&#039;s proven. But if you deal in theology, philosophers not only can contradict, they usually do.

The method of philosophical proof doesn&#039;t guarantee soundness, that doesn&#039;t mean that no proof is sound. After all, a proof is also no &lt;b&gt;less&lt;/b&gt; sound than the combined shakiness in its postulates and logical steps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I took the piece you quote to be talking about science, math, and areas of philosophy more amenable to proof. But not religion. IOW, if we prove that sunset is caused by the earth&#8217;s spin, then obviously the story of Yehoshua stopping the sun isn&#8217;t literal and contradicting what&#8217;s proven. But if you deal in theology, philosophers not only can contradict, they usually do.</p>
<p>The method of philosophical proof doesn&#8217;t guarantee soundness, that doesn&#8217;t mean that no proof is sound. After all, a proof is also no <b>less</b> sound than the combined shakiness in its postulates and logical steps.</p>
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		<title>By: Yoni Sacks</title>
		<link>http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2004/12/kuzari-proof-part-i.shtml/comment-page-1#comment-57224</link>
		<dc:creator>Yoni Sacks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aishdas.org/asp2/?p=17#comment-57224</guid>
		<description>The Rabbi: Where could we find one for such a question? Heaven forbid that there should be anything in the Bible to contradict that which is manifest or proved! On the other hand…

I think there is something very important in this statement of the Rabbi. The Rabbi is very careful to recognize what is manifest and proved. He does not view what is proved as shaky. Much to the contrary, he makes sure the King is aware that the Bible does not contradict what is proved. Heaven forbid that the Bible should contradict what is proved! This is very similar to Rambam&#039;s point regarding Creation. If it could be proved that the Universe is eternal we would take Creation as a Mashal.

But there are certain areas that cannot be proved, either because of the beginning study of the student. Or perhaps because of the immaturity of human knowledge, or because of the inherent limitation of our knowledge. It is here that we are guided by tradition it would seem. Yet, which tradition shall we choose? Surely there must be a way of intelligently choosing a tradition where formal proof does not, or cannot exist?

In principle, this is where the Kuzari&#039;s argument from Sinai enters the picture. Forgetting your difficulties with the argument for the moment, clearly, for all those who do not have prophetic dreams, this is the course Kuzari advocates. An argument to justify Jewish tradition where stronger proof cannot exist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Rabbi: Where could we find one for such a question? Heaven forbid that there should be anything in the Bible to contradict that which is manifest or proved! On the other hand…</p>
<p>I think there is something very important in this statement of the Rabbi. The Rabbi is very careful to recognize what is manifest and proved. He does not view what is proved as shaky. Much to the contrary, he makes sure the King is aware that the Bible does not contradict what is proved. Heaven forbid that the Bible should contradict what is proved! This is very similar to Rambam&#8217;s point regarding Creation. If it could be proved that the Universe is eternal we would take Creation as a Mashal.</p>
<p>But there are certain areas that cannot be proved, either because of the beginning study of the student. Or perhaps because of the immaturity of human knowledge, or because of the inherent limitation of our knowledge. It is here that we are guided by tradition it would seem. Yet, which tradition shall we choose? Surely there must be a way of intelligently choosing a tradition where formal proof does not, or cannot exist?</p>
<p>In principle, this is where the Kuzari&#8217;s argument from Sinai enters the picture. Forgetting your difficulties with the argument for the moment, clearly, for all those who do not have prophetic dreams, this is the course Kuzari advocates. An argument to justify Jewish tradition where stronger proof cannot exist.</p>
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		<title>By: micha</title>
		<link>http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2004/12/kuzari-proof-part-i.shtml/comment-page-1#comment-57206</link>
		<dc:creator>micha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aishdas.org/asp2/?p=17#comment-57206</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re still contrasting philsophy with faith. I do not know how to clarify what I&#039;m saying without repeating myself.

1- We&#039;re not talking about faith, we&#039;re arguing about which justification system is a more reliable way of producing knowledge.

2- We&#039;re not talking about one or the other, but rather the appropriate role for each. I&#039;m saying that relating to G-d, knowing Him through experiencing His Creation and His Torah is the basis of emunah, atop which one uses philosophy to know more about Him. That He Exists (and perhaps the more basic things we say about Him as well, this is a blurry line which drifts off), though, is most soundly proven the way we prove postulates, not as a structure built atop postulates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re still contrasting philsophy with faith. I do not know how to clarify what I&#8217;m saying without repeating myself.</p>
<p>1- We&#8217;re not talking about faith, we&#8217;re arguing about which justification system is a more reliable way of producing knowledge.</p>
<p>2- We&#8217;re not talking about one or the other, but rather the appropriate role for each. I&#8217;m saying that relating to G-d, knowing Him through experiencing His Creation and His Torah is the basis of emunah, atop which one uses philosophy to know more about Him. That He Exists (and perhaps the more basic things we say about Him as well, this is a blurry line which drifts off), though, is most soundly proven the way we prove postulates, not as a structure built atop postulates.</p>
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		<title>By: micha</title>
		<link>http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2004/12/kuzari-proof-part-i.shtml/comment-page-1#comment-57205</link>
		<dc:creator>micha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aishdas.org/asp2/?p=17#comment-57205</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think my explanation adds much if anything to the author&#039;s own words. Some quotes from Hirschfield&#039;s translation:

&lt;i&gt;13. The Rabbi: That which thou dost express is religion based on speculation and system, the research of thought, but open to many doubts. Now ask the philosophers, and thou wilt find that they do not agree on one action or one principle, since some doctrines can be established by arguments, which are only partially satisfactory, and still much less capable of being proved.&lt;/i&gt;

and
&lt;i&gt;63. The Rabbi: There is an excuse for the Philosophers. Being Grecians, science and religion did not come to them as inheritances. They belong to the descendants of Japheth, who inhabited the north, whilst that knowledge coming from Adam, and supported by the divine influence, is only to be found among the progeny of Shem, who represented the successors of Noah and constituted, as it were, his essence. This knowledge has always been connected with this essence, and will always remain so. The Greeks only received it when they became powerful, from Persia. The Persians had it from the Chaldaeans. It was only then that the famous [Greek] Philosophers arose, but as soon as Rome assumed political leadership they produced no philosopher worthy the name.

64. Al Khazari: Does this mean that Aristotle&#039;s philosophy is not deserving of credence?

65. The Rabbi: Certainly. He exerted his mind, because he had no tradition from any reliable source at his disposal. He meditated on the beginning and end of the world, but found as much difficulty in the theory of a beginning as in that of eternity. Finally, these abstract speculations which made for eternity, prevailed, and he found no reason to inquire into the chronology or derivation of those who lived before him. Had he lived among a people with well authenticated and generally acknowledged traditions, he would have applied his deductions and arguments to establish the theory of creation, however difficult, instead of eternity, which is even much more difficult to accept.

66. Al Khazari: Is there any decisive proof?

67. The Rabbi: Where could we find one for such a question? Heaven forbid that there should be anything in the Bible to contradict that which is manifest or proved! On the other hand...&lt;/i&gt;

Does he not &lt;b&gt;explicitly&lt;/b&gt; say that philosophy can not prove anything (in any strong sense of the word prove), that it merely produces arguments in favor of this idea or that?
&lt;hr&gt;

You’re still contrasting philsophy with faith. I do not know how to clarify what I’m saying without repeating myself.

1- We’re not talking about faith, we’re arguing about which justification system is a more reliable way of producing knowledge.

2- We’re not talking about one or the other, but rather the appropriate role for each. I’m saying that relating to G-d, knowing Him through experiencing His Creation and His Torah is the basis of emunah, atop which one uses philosophy to know more about Him. That He Exists (and perhaps the more basic things we say about Him as well, this is a blurry line which drifts off), though, is most soundly proven the way we prove postulates, not as a structure built atop postulates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think my explanation adds much if anything to the author&#8217;s own words. Some quotes from Hirschfield&#8217;s translation:</p>
<p><i>13. The Rabbi: That which thou dost express is religion based on speculation and system, the research of thought, but open to many doubts. Now ask the philosophers, and thou wilt find that they do not agree on one action or one principle, since some doctrines can be established by arguments, which are only partially satisfactory, and still much less capable of being proved.</i></p>
<p>and<br />
<i>63. The Rabbi: There is an excuse for the Philosophers. Being Grecians, science and religion did not come to them as inheritances. They belong to the descendants of Japheth, who inhabited the north, whilst that knowledge coming from Adam, and supported by the divine influence, is only to be found among the progeny of Shem, who represented the successors of Noah and constituted, as it were, his essence. This knowledge has always been connected with this essence, and will always remain so. The Greeks only received it when they became powerful, from Persia. The Persians had it from the Chaldaeans. It was only then that the famous [Greek] Philosophers arose, but as soon as Rome assumed political leadership they produced no philosopher worthy the name.</p>
<p>64. Al Khazari: Does this mean that Aristotle&#8217;s philosophy is not deserving of credence?</p>
<p>65. The Rabbi: Certainly. He exerted his mind, because he had no tradition from any reliable source at his disposal. He meditated on the beginning and end of the world, but found as much difficulty in the theory of a beginning as in that of eternity. Finally, these abstract speculations which made for eternity, prevailed, and he found no reason to inquire into the chronology or derivation of those who lived before him. Had he lived among a people with well authenticated and generally acknowledged traditions, he would have applied his deductions and arguments to establish the theory of creation, however difficult, instead of eternity, which is even much more difficult to accept.</p>
<p>66. Al Khazari: Is there any decisive proof?</p>
<p>67. The Rabbi: Where could we find one for such a question? Heaven forbid that there should be anything in the Bible to contradict that which is manifest or proved! On the other hand&#8230;</i></p>
<p>Does he not <b>explicitly</b> say that philosophy can not prove anything (in any strong sense of the word prove), that it merely produces arguments in favor of this idea or that?</p>
<hr />
<p>You’re still contrasting philsophy with faith. I do not know how to clarify what I’m saying without repeating myself.</p>
<p>1- We’re not talking about faith, we’re arguing about which justification system is a more reliable way of producing knowledge.</p>
<p>2- We’re not talking about one or the other, but rather the appropriate role for each. I’m saying that relating to G-d, knowing Him through experiencing His Creation and His Torah is the basis of emunah, atop which one uses philosophy to know more about Him. That He Exists (and perhaps the more basic things we say about Him as well, this is a blurry line which drifts off), though, is most soundly proven the way we prove postulates, not as a structure built atop postulates.</p>
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		<title>By: Yoni Sacks</title>
		<link>http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2004/12/kuzari-proof-part-i.shtml/comment-page-1#comment-57203</link>
		<dc:creator>Yoni Sacks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aishdas.org/asp2/?p=17#comment-57203</guid>
		<description>It would require saying that a person converting has superior basis for being Jewish while deciding to become which he must forget, in favor of simplistic &quot;faith&quot; after converting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would require saying that a person converting has superior basis for being Jewish while deciding to become which he must forget, in favor of simplistic &#8220;faith&#8221; after converting.</p>
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		<title>By: Yoni Sacks</title>
		<link>http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2004/12/kuzari-proof-part-i.shtml/comment-page-1#comment-57202</link>
		<dc:creator>Yoni Sacks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aishdas.org/asp2/?p=17#comment-57202</guid>
		<description>I am just pointing out that your explanation in this piece titled  &quot;Kuzari #1&quot; of RYHL&#039;s view of Sinai is not correct. It would make sense in the Rav&#039;s framework only. As a resolution to the non Jewish kings problem it is untenable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am just pointing out that your explanation in this piece titled  &#8220;Kuzari #1&#8243; of RYHL&#8217;s view of Sinai is not correct. It would make sense in the Rav&#8217;s framework only. As a resolution to the non Jewish kings problem it is untenable.</p>
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		<title>By: micha</title>
		<link>http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2004/12/kuzari-proof-part-i.shtml/comment-page-1#comment-57200</link>
		<dc:creator>micha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aishdas.org/asp2/?p=17#comment-57200</guid>
		<description>Read the book!

The king went hunting for a religion when G-d appeared to him in a dream complimenting his intent, but saying his actions felll short. Then it became an exploration of what to convert to. After part 1 explains why knowledge must be founded on tradition, at least in Rihal&#039;s opinion, there is part II...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Read the book!</p>
<p>The king went hunting for a religion when G-d appeared to him in a dream complimenting his intent, but saying his actions felll short. Then it became an exploration of what to convert to. After part 1 explains why knowledge must be founded on tradition, at least in Rihal&#8217;s opinion, there is part II&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Yoni Sacks</title>
		<link>http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2004/12/kuzari-proof-part-i.shtml/comment-page-1#comment-57199</link>
		<dc:creator>Yoni Sacks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aishdas.org/asp2/?p=17#comment-57199</guid>
		<description>What role does Sinai play in helping a non Jewish king choose which religion to explore?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What role does Sinai play in helping a non Jewish king choose which religion to explore?</p>
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		<title>By: micha</title>
		<link>http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2004/12/kuzari-proof-part-i.shtml/comment-page-1#comment-57195</link>
		<dc:creator>micha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aishdas.org/asp2/?p=17#comment-57195</guid>
		<description>True, the Rav&#039;s position on experience and categories isn&#039;t the Kuzari&#039;s. But even so, the Kuzari converts because a dream told him to. The whole discourse was to decide which religion to explore. It&#039;s not in-and-of-itself justification for the conversion.

I also never said religion can&#039;t be measured in objective truth standards. It can&#039;t be discussed, because it involves experience more than the consequent ideas that are tokenized into words or have logical structures built upon them. But that&#039;s not denying their objectivity, but their communicability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True, the Rav&#8217;s position on experience and categories isn&#8217;t the Kuzari&#8217;s. But even so, the Kuzari converts because a dream told him to. The whole discourse was to decide which religion to explore. It&#8217;s not in-and-of-itself justification for the conversion.</p>
<p>I also never said religion can&#8217;t be measured in objective truth standards. It can&#8217;t be discussed, because it involves experience more than the consequent ideas that are tokenized into words or have logical structures built upon them. But that&#8217;s not denying their objectivity, but their communicability.</p>
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		<title>By: Yoni Sacks</title>
		<link>http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2004/12/kuzari-proof-part-i.shtml/comment-page-1#comment-57193</link>
		<dc:creator>Yoni Sacks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aishdas.org/asp2/?p=17#comment-57193</guid>
		<description>You are just proving my point. Indeed the Rav states in &quot;confrontation&quot; that religion is rooted in personal experience and cannot therefore be a topic of debate between communities. The Rav would not in the same article advocate for a debate between communities in which a non Jewish king becomes convinced of Judaism&#039;s superior argument and converts. What I am asking is how the Kuzari, could be imagined to be sharing the Rav&#039;s opinion as stated in &quot;confrontation&quot;? If Religion is incapable of being measured in objective truth standards, the notion of a debate between various religions, the basis of the Kuzari itself, in which Judaism triumphs, is absurd.

(The Rav, as you surely know, often offers different opinions to different audiences. Though this is best known to his students in Halacha, it is so in Hashkafot as well).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are just proving my point. Indeed the Rav states in &#8220;confrontation&#8221; that religion is rooted in personal experience and cannot therefore be a topic of debate between communities. The Rav would not in the same article advocate for a debate between communities in which a non Jewish king becomes convinced of Judaism&#8217;s superior argument and converts. What I am asking is how the Kuzari, could be imagined to be sharing the Rav&#8217;s opinion as stated in &#8220;confrontation&#8221;? If Religion is incapable of being measured in objective truth standards, the notion of a debate between various religions, the basis of the Kuzari itself, in which Judaism triumphs, is absurd.</p>
<p>(The Rav, as you surely know, often offers different opinions to different audiences. Though this is best known to his students in Halacha, it is so in Hashkafot as well).</p>
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