Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 83

Fri, 24 Nov 2023

• 1. Re: Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch on the parsha: Improper parenting (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch on the parsha: (Marty Bluke)
• 3. The Chasida (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Do those on Wegovy/Mounjaro need to wait more than 6 hours after meat? (Ben Rothke)
• 5. Re: Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch on the parsha: (Akiva Miller)
• 6. Re: The Chasida (Micha Berger)
• 7. Birchat Cohanim (Joel Rich)
• 8. Thanksgiving: Wholesome Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? (Prof. L. Levine)

On Sun, Nov 19, 2023 at 1:48pm -0500, Akiva Miller asked:
> Can someone point to where Rav Hirsch wrote this? Can someone point to
> evidence that Yitzchak and Rivka raised Esav and Yaakov the same way?

Similarly, later that day at 9:42pm +0000, Joseph Kaplan wrote:
> Where does the Torah text tell us that Yitzchak and Rivkah did not
> treat them differently.

On Bereishis 25:27, the pasuq that contrasts the ish sadeh with the yosheiv
ohalim:

    The reader knows that Esau and Jacob will eventually become
    competitors and enemies. They will engage in a struggle which our
    rabbis describe in national and eternal terms. On the immediate level,
    however, Hirsch brings his love for education and philosophic acumen
    to bear when explaining how the two brothers ended up on the brink
    of war:

    Our sages, who never objected to draw attention to the small and great
    mistakes and weaknesses in the history of our great forefathers,
    and thereby make them just the more instructive for us here too on
    "They grew up" make a remark which is indeed a "signpost" for all of
    us. They point out that the striking contrast in the grandchildren
    of Abraham may have been due, not so much to a difference in their
    temperaments as to mistakes in the way they were brought up. As
    long as they were little, no attention was paid to the slumbering
    differences in their natures (see on V. 24) both had exactly the
    same teaching and educational treatment, and the great law of
    education "instruct the child according to his way" was forgotten:
    That each child must be treated differently, with an eye to the
    slumbering tendencies of his nature, and out of them, be educated
    to develop his special characteristics for the one pure human and
    Jewish life. The great Jewish task in life is basically simple,
    one and the same for all, but in realization is as complicated and
    varied as human natures and tendencies are ...

    But just because of that, must each one be brought up "according
    to his way" according to the presumed path of life to which his
    tendencies lead, each one differently towards the one great goal.
    To try to bring up a Jacob and an Esau in the same manner [literally:
    to sit on the same schoolbench" -mb], make them have the same
    habits and hobbies, want to teach and educate them in the same
    way for some studious sedate, meditative life is the surest way to
    court disaster. A Jacob will, with ever increasing zeal and zest,
    imbibe knowledge from the well of wisdom and truth while and Esau
    can hardly wait for the time when he can throw the old books...

    Had Isaac and Rebeca studied Esau's nature and character enough,
    and asked themselves how can even an Esau with all the strength and
    energy, agility and courage that lies slumbering in this child, be
    won over to be used in the service of God...then Jacob and Esau,
    with their totally different natures could still have remained
    twin-brothers in spirit and life.

If you know German, try
https://www.sefaria.org/Rav_Hirsch_on_Torah%2C_Genesis.25.27

RAM then questions this thesis:
> To my mind, the fact that Yaakov was accustomed to the meat that Esav would
> bring home and prepare, and that he requested more of it, demonstrates that
> he *was* aware of each son's talents, and that he encouraged (or at least,
> didn't mind) those disparate talents.

See his commentary on 27:1, the part where he discussed Rivqah's motives.

He notes that simply fooling Yitzchaq into blessing the other son wouln't
actually get Yaaqov an effective berakhah. (The Ran notes this, derashah
2, and says the point was to prevent Yitzchaq from making a nevu'ah
manifest in this world, as it means that nevu'ah would have to happen.)

Rather, Rivqah wanted to demonstrate to Yitzchaq that he was fooled. Just
as he can mistake his yosheiv ohalim for a hunter, he has been mistaken
about who Esav really was. And therefore RSRH assumes she wanted and
expected the subterfuge to get caught.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 You want to know how to paint a perfect
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   painting?  It's easy.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Make yourself perfect and then just paint
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    naturally.              -Robert Pirsig

Rav Hirsch wrote this in his commentary on Chumash at the beginning of
Parshas Toldos. You can see it online (in hebrew) here. Look for Rav
Hirsch.
https://mg.alhatorah.org/Full/Bereshit/25.27#e0n6
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.
There exists a bird called the "chasida"; it is often translated into
English as "stork". In Vayikra 11:19, Rashi cites Chullin 63a as explaining
that it got this name because it does chesed with its friends.

If so, then why is this a NON-kosher bird? ArtScroll Chullin 63a4 cites the
Chidushei haRim: It is non-kosher because although it does do chesed for
its friends, it will not help other species.

The Ibn Ezra comments (Vayikra 11:19) that some derive this name from
"chesed" - "b'derech rechoka". (Would it be accurate to translate those
last two words as "but this is far-fetched"?)

I'd like to suggest another possibility, and I promise not to be offended
if anyone calls it a silly folk etymology.

In this week's parsha, just before naming Yosef, in Bereshis 30:23, Rachel
Imenu refers to "cherpasi", "my cherpah", variously translated as my
indignity, my shame, my embarrassment, and the like. Onkelos translates
this negative feeling as "chisudi".

Is it possible that this selfish, species-centric bird was not named for
the Hebrew word chesed, but rather for the similarly-spelled Aramaic word?

Akiva Miller
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As I understand it, according to Rashi, one waits 6 hours after meat as
that is how long it takes to fully digest meat.

There is a new class of weight-loss drugs such as Wegovy & Mounjaro that
work by slowing the digestive process.

Based on Rashi, would people on those medications have to wait longer than
6 hours before they have diary after meat?
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.
R' Marty Bluke wrote:

<<< Rav Hirsch wrote this in his commentary on Chumash at the beginning of
Parshas Toldos. You can see it online (in hebrew) here. Look for Rav
Hirsch.
https://mg.alhatorah.org/Full/Bereshit/25.27#e0n6 >>>

Yes, that is what he says there, but I don't see that he brought any
evidence for it. With Rav Hirsch's masterful knowledge of chinuch, I can
understand how it was obvious to him that Esav's rebellion was a result of
his parent's shoehorning him into the same mold as Yaakov. But it isn't
obvious to me, and I'm asking for examples - either in the Torah or
midrashim or whatever - which demonstrate this faulty chinuch.

Akiva Miller
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On Mon, Nov 20, 2023 at 07:21:11PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> If so, then why is this a NON-kosher bird? ArtScroll Chullin 63a4 cites the
> Chidushei haRim: It is non-kosher because although it does do chesed for
> its friends, it will not help other species.
> 
> The Ibn Ezra comments (Vayikra 11:19) that some derive this name from
...

The bit that it is clled "chasidah" because it does chessed with
its own is R Yehudah on in Chullin 63a. Quoted by Rashi on Vayiqra
11:17.

But neither make this explanation of the name "chasidah" into a reason
why it would be treif despite whatever "chessed" it can be associated
with.

...
> In this week's parsha, just before naming Yosef, in Bereshis 30:23, Rachel
> Imenu refers to "cherpasi", "my cherpah", variously translated as my
> indignity, my shame, my embarrassment, and the like. Onkelos translates
> this negative feeling as "chisudi".

> Is it possible that this selfish, species-centric bird was not named for
> the Hebrew word chesed, but rather for the similarly-spelled Aramaic word?

That would be ironic, Since Targum Unqelus names the bird "chavvarisa" and
T' Yonasan - "chivarasa". In Aramaic, the species is named with a /ch-v-r/
root, not /ch-s-d/. If the usage in Hebrew was from the Aramaic, and the
Aramaic used a different etymology to come up with a name... As I said, it
would be ironic.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The waste of time is the most extravagant
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   of all expense.
Author: Widen Your Tent                              -Theophrastus
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

A fascinating insight from the Alei Tamar( Rabbi Yissachar b. Zvi Tamar
1886-1982) on the Jerusalem Talmud chapter 5, halacha 4)
He posits the reason why there is no daily birchat cohanim outside of
Israel on the fact that, in order for the blessing to be given, it must be
done with full joy, full love of the Jewish people, with complete, full
intent and equanimity of mind with the best of voices.

He thus explains a report of a practice in Italy that when the Cohanim went
up to the duchen, only one would say the birchat cohanim (either the
greatest of them or with the one with the best voice.) While this practice
seems to be inconsistent with the Talmud, he posits that it?s an ancient
practice, and they were so worried that they would not be able to do it
right that they selected only the greatest to say it the others would get
credit through him.

The kicker is that over the years it went from being the most qualified
cohen to the one with the best voice. Insert your own commentary here.

Bsorot Tovot

Joel Rich
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From

https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/11438

One of the interesting aspects of being American and living in the ?Medina
shel Chessed? is dealing with secular holidays. A day off of work, more
time to learn, and suspended Alternate Side parking rules are always
appreciated. Of these holidays, Thanksgiving is by far the most popular
among Yidden, with many keeping some semblance of observance, generally as
a way of saying ?Thank You? and showing a form of Hakaras HaTov to our host
country. Although all agree that showing Hakaras HaTov is prudent, on the
other hand, it is well known that there were contemporary Poskim who were
wary of any form of actual Thanksgiving observance. This article sets out
to explore the history and halachic issues of this very American holiday.

<Snip>


Thanksgiving: Religious or Secular?

But to understand how this affects us and possible Thanksgiving observance,
we must first ascertain whether Thanksgiving is truly a religious holiday
or a secular one. Of the aforementioned Thanksgiving observances, all were
declared as a unique day expressly designated to thank G-d for all of his
?gracious gifts.? This implies that it is meant to be a religious holiday.
Yet, only the Continental Congress?s proclamation made reference to the
Christian deity. Additionally, there is no actual religious service
connected with the day at all. Furthermore, nowadays, the vast majority of
Americans simply associate Thanksgiving with food (mainly turkey),
football, and family, and take the day off. This implies that its
observance is strictly secular. Which is the real Thanksgiving?

Contemporary Rulings

As with many issues in halacha, there are different approaches to
Thanksgiving observance. In fact, Rav Moshe Feinstein alone has written
four different responsa on topic, spanning several decades.[12]<https://ohr.edu/11438#_edn12>
Although in the earlier teshuvos he seems to be against the idea of a
Thanksgiving celebration (there possibly was more religious connotations
involved in the early 1960s celebrations than in the 1980s), nevertheless,
in his later teshuvos he does allow a Thanksgiving observance (he notes
that it is not a religious celebration) with turkey being served, as long
as it is not seen as an obligatory annual celebration,[13]<https://ohr.edu/11438#_edn13>
but rather as a periodical ?simchas reshus.? All the same, Rav Moshe
concludes that it is still preferable not to have a celebration
specifically for Thanksgiving.

Other contemporary poskim who allowed eating turkey on Thanksgiving include
Rav Eliezer Silver, Rav Yosef Dov (J.B.) Soloveitchik,[14]<https://ohr.edu/11438#_edn14>
the Rivevos Efraim,[15]<https://ohr.edu/11438#_edn15>
and Rav Yehuda Herzl Henkin.[16]<https://ohr.edu/11438#_edn16>
They explain that Thanksgiving is ?only a day of thanks and not, Heaven
forbid, for idol celebration.? They therefore maintain that merely eating
turkey on Thanksgiving cannot be considered Chukos HaGoyim.

On the other hand, other contemporary authorities disagree. Rav Yitzchok
Hutner, Rosh Yeshivas Rabbeinu Chaim Berlin, is quoted as maintaining that
the establishment of Thanksgiving as an annual holiday that is based on the
Christian calendar is, at the very least, closely associated with Avodah
Zarah and therefore prohibited.[17]<https://ohr.edu/11438#_edn17> He
explains that its annual observance classifies it as a ?holiday? and
celebrating Gentile holidays is obviously not permitted.

It is well known that Rav Avigdor Miller was a strong proponent of this
view as well, as Thanksgiving?s origins belie that it was actually
established as a religious holiday.[18]<https://ohr.edu/11438#_edn18>

Similarly, Rav Menashe Klein ruled that it is a prohibited to celebrate
Thanksgiving.[19]<https://ohr.edu/11438#_edn19>
Aside from citing the Vilna Gaon?s opinion, which would outright prohibit
any such celebration, he mentions that although the Thanksgiving holiday
was originally established by Pilgrims rejoicing over their own survival,
that they didn?t starve due to their finding the turkey, and might not be
considered Chukos HaGoyim, nevertheless there is another prohibition
involved. The Shulchan Aruch, based on a Mishnah in Maseches Avodah Zarah,
rules that if an idolater makes a personal holiday for various reasons
(i.e. his birthday, was let out of jail, etc.) and at that party he thanks
his gods, it is prohibited to join in that celebration.[20]<https://ohr.edu/11438#_edn20>

Rav Klein posits that the same would apply to Thanksgiving, as it
commemorates the original Pilgrim Thanksgiving, thanking G-d for the turkey
and their survival, and would be certainly prohibited, and possibly even
Biblically.

An analogous ruling was given by Rav Feivel Cohen zt?l (author of the Badei
HaShulchan) and yblch?t Rav Dovid Cohen shlit?a (of Gevul Ya?avetz), albeit
for different reasons.[21]<https://ohr.edu/11438#_edn21>
Rav Feivel Cohen takes a seemingly extreme position, maintaining that not
only is it forbidden for a Jew to celebrate Thanksgiving, it is even
prohibited for a Gentile to do so as well![22]<https://ohr.edu/11438#_edn22>

Rav Dovid Cohen, on the other hand, writes that for a Jew to eat turkey on
Thanksgiving expressly for the sake of the holiday should be prohibited by
the rule of Tosafos, as it would be deemed following an irrational rule of
theirs that is improper to follow. Yet, he concedes that it is not
prohibited for a family to get together on a day off from work and eat
turkey together, as long as they do so not to celebrate Thanksgiving, but
rather because they like turkey. Even so, he concludes that it is still
preferable not to do so.


See the above URL for much more.


Professor Yitzchok Levine



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