Volume 41: Number 31
Wed, 19 Apr 2023
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Jay F. Shachter
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2023 10:59:12 -0500 (EDT)
Subject: [Avodah] Everyone Does Not
>
> So my first question is this: If shuman and chelev are so different,
> and English has words for each of them, why does everyone (Jewish or
> not) translate chelev as fat?
>
Everyone does not. See, for example, "The Commentary of Abraham Ibn
Ezra on the Pentateuch: Volume 3: Leviticus", published by Ktav
Publishing House, Hoboken NJ (both the 1st and the 2nd editions are
out of print, but used copies can be found on, I think, amazon.com,
and perhaps elsewhere too) where, beginning with Leviticus 3:9 and
consistently throughout the remainder of the book, xelev is translated
as "suet", without exception. The same is done in Volume 5, in the
translation of Deuteronomy 32:14 (the only place in that book where
the word appears). If you have the impression that "everyone"
translates xelev as "fat", it is probably because in our generation,
the only people who translate the Hebrew scriptures into English, are
people who cannot speak English.
Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
6424 North Whipple Street
Chicago IL 60645-4111
(1-773)7613784 landline
(1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice
j...@m5.chicago.il.us
http://m5.chicago.il.us
When Martin Buber was a schoolboy, it must have been
no fun at all playing tag with him during recess.
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Message: 2
From: Zvi Lampel
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:25:37 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Wise Son vs the Wicked Son and the word
On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 3:22?AM Zvi Lampel via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> The wicked son asks, ''What is this [korban Pesach] avodah to you
> (lachem)? He is reprimanded for excluding himself from the tsibur who
> follow Hashem's commands.
>
> But the son praised as wise also (at least in the actual posuk, if not in
> all versions of the dialogue) asks, ''What are the laws...Hashem commanded
> you?''
>
> Why is he not reprimanded for his choice of words?
>
> Answers are given, but I thought of a very simple one. If, like the ben
> who asks the four kushyos, these sons are preferably considered ketanim,
> then the wise son is absolutely correct, and quite wise indeed, to note
> that it is the parent who is commanded in the mitzva, not he.
>
From: Simon Montagu <simon.mont...@gmail.com>
If that is the case for the wise son, what was the problem with the wicked
son?
ZL: The wicked son, unlike the wise son, is not speaking about to whom the
(various categories of) mitzvos were commanded. He is not asking, "What is
this avodah that Hashem commanded you?" It doesn't read like that. He is
belittling the idea of performing the avodah by asking "What is this to
you?" (Even without the "to you,'' his confrontational and negative
attitude comes through. The "to you" only amplifies it, and provides an
opening to the reprimand in kind.)
RZS:
>
> In my opinion the *simple pshat in the pasuk*, before any drashos, is
> that one son is asking "what is this avoda of *yours*"; the Baal Hagada
> understands him to be saying that it is not my avoda at all, I am merely
> curious about what *you* are doing. Therefore he labels him "wicked".
Before the drashos, the posuk reads as an innocent question that Hashem
desires, eliciting a non-confrontational answer: (Shemos 12:25-26) "And
when you enter the land... you shall observe this avodah. And it will be
that when your children will say to you, "What is this avodah to you," you
shall tell them it is the zevach Pesach laShem, because He
was pasach over/on the houses of the bnei Yisrael..."
>
> The other son does not speak like that; his language is consistent with
> including himself in Am Yisrael and accepting the obligation of the
> mitzvos. But he was not there at matan torah, so he must ask, "what are
> the mitzvos that Hashem commanded *you*, before I was born, so that I
> may do them too?". Thus the BHG labels him "wise".
The person to whom the wise son is speaking was also not at matan Torah.
Zvi Lampel
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Message: 3
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 18:39:11 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] first to minyan?
On Wed, Apr 05, 2023 at 05:46:00AM +0300, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> If one has a choice of being one of the first 10 to the minyan or putting
> on taalit and tfillin in the entrance hallway of the building that has the
> shul, which gets priority?
First I was thinking: it depends which area the sho'el needs more work
in. After all, both are "nice to"s, not hard-n-fast halachic requirements.
Then I thought... hmm... putting on one's tallis before entering shul is
from the Ari. Based on but not in the Zohar. And while the Rama calls
it common minhag, the Mechaber, Mehnarshal, Gra, etc... don't consider
donning a tallis before shul all that important. How can it compare to
a desideratum praised in the gemara?
So, let me limit that first impression to tefillin (not tallis) vs being
one of the first ten.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 11th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp 1 week and 4 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent Netzach sheb'Gevurah: What is imposing about
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF strict justice?
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Message: 4
From: Brent Kaufman
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 13:12:58 -0500
Subject: [Avodah] What really happened just before leaving Egypt?
What really happened on the night of the first Seder/Makos Bechoros?
The family is sitting around the table all night long, having finished the
korbon at midnight, hearing screaming all around them. They're sitting
ready to go, staff in hand, shoes on, girded for a long walk. Any minute
they'll be told to get out. Hours go by, the women start unpacking their
baking utensils while the men are looking at them like they're crazy. 10
minutes, not much more, later, they're told to get out NOW! At that moment,
all over Egypt, one question was being asked, "Well, who told you to start
baking now?! Hurry up, we're going to be late." (Jews weren't the first
ones to say the latter. I think it was Adam to Chava while leaving Gan
Eden.) The question is, how many women did this, for the Torah to make a
general blanket statement, (about the women starting to make bread but
didn't have time...) that this is why we eat matzah? And why did they do
it, in the first place, and not prepare from the day before? There are
Medrashim that say we left Mitzrayim in the zechus of the emunah of the
women. Does this show the opposite of that?
Chaimbaruch Kaufman
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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 18:06:25 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Wise Son vs the Wicked Son and the word
And the rasha and the tam get the same pasuq quoted to them. Why does
the "tam" get "lakhem" without the midrashic elaboration "'lakhem' - velo
lo"?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
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Message: 6
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 21:28:03 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Wise Son vs the Wicked Son and the word
On 17/4/23 18:06, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> And the rasha and the tam get the same pasuq quoted to them. Why does
> the "tam" get "lakhem" without the midrashic elaboration "'lakhem' - velo
> lo"?
Because he didn't ask lachem. He asked "ma zos?", so what do you want
from him?
--
Zev Sero ?Were we directed from Washington when to sow
z...@sero.name and when to reap, we should soon want bread.?
?Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821.
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Message: 7
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 21:27:02 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] What really happened just before leaving Egypt?
Even stronger question. We left Egypt at high noon. Had everyone
really been up all night, sitting at the ready since midnight, and davka
at 11:50 AM they suddenly decided to start baking?! What did they do
for 12 hours? And when Moshe told Par'oh shortly after midnight that
we'll leave when we're good and ready, not when you tell us to, did he
not know when that would be? Couldn't he have passed the word that
people could relax, get some sleep, go to the toilet, but be ready to
leave at the stroke of noon?
--
Zev Sero ?Were we directed from Washington when to sow
z...@sero.name and when to reap, we should soon want bread.?
?Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821.
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Message: 8
From: Zvi Lampel
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:53:49 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Wise Son vs the Wicked Son and the word
On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 6:06?PM Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> And the rasha and the sheh-ayno yodeia lish'ol get the same pasuq quoted
> to them. Why does
> the "tam" get "lakhem" without the midrashic elaboration "'lakhem' - velo
> lo"?
>
> I'd say that concerning the sheh-ayni yodeia lish'ol, the main part of the
pasuk is v'higadta l-bincha, which wasn't cited to the rasha. Point being,
you should tell him the sippur even though he didn't ask, just as this
posuk was not preceded by a question.. Again, I think the "lachem" of the
rasha is taken as it is based on the context of his confrontational remark,
and the "li v'lo " response is just a clever shtuch in kind. But when
responding to the sheh-ayno yodeah lish'ol, the "li" is understood
according to the peshat of the posuk, which is an non-confrontational
remark of a parent impressing his child with how strongly he feels that
Hashem took him personally out of Mitzrayim, in reward for going through
with the korban Pesach rite.
Zvi Lampel
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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 11:58:14 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] What really happened just before leaving Egypt?
On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 09:27:02PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> Even stronger question. We left Egypt at high noon. Had everyone really
> been up all night, sitting at the ready since midnight, and davka at 11:50
> AM they suddenly decided to start baking?! What did they do for 12 hours?
Armchair psychoanalysis:
Hope that they weren't going to be disappointed, maybe?
After all, the first time they put faith in Moshe, things ended up just
gettin worse -- get your own straw, and stick to the quota! Then many
of Benei Ephraim leave and that failed.
Okay, the makkos. But did they actually get permission to leave during
any of that? Not before this.
Maybe BY just weren't ready to get their hopes up. The process has been
going on for a year, did they know it would wrap up in hours rather
than days, months, or even a year or two? Would they have been ready to
believe it?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 12th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp 1 week and 5 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent Hod sheb'Gevurah: What aspect of judgment
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF forces the "judge" into submission?
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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 12:05:55 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Wise Son vs the Wicked Son and the word
On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 11:53:49PM -0400, Zvi Lampel wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 6:06???PM Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
>> And the rasha and the [she'eino yodeia lish'ol] get the same pasuq quoted
>> to them. Why does
>> the "[sy"l]" get "lakhem" without the midrashic elaboration "'lakhem' - velo
>> lo"?
> I'd say that concerning the sheh-ayni yodeia lish'ol, the main part of the
> pasuk is v'higadta l-bincha, which wasn't cited to the rasha...
I think my question would have been stronger had I turned it around and
made it about our response to the rasha:
How valid is the diyuq of "lakhem velo lo" when we are speaking to the
rasha is we are willing to overlook the distinction when talkin to the
sh'eino yodeia lish'ol?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
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Message: 11
From: Zvi Lampel
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 15:50:12 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Wise Son vs the Wicked Son and the word
On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 12:06?PM Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 11:53:49PM -0400, Zvi Lampel wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 6:06???PM Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
> wrote:
>
> How valid is the diyuq of "lakhem velo lo" when we are speaking to the
> rasha, if we are willing to overlook the distinction when talking to the
> sh'eino yodeia lish'ol?
It's not a formal diyuk. Certainly, in the actual context of the posuk,and
in its citation to the sheh-ayno yodea lish'ol, it's not meant to accuse
the listener of being unworthy of geulah. It's simply exploiting the word
l''achem'' used by the rasha (who, the drasha treats the speaker, asks
rhetorically, "What is the [need of] this avodah?") to turn it against him
with a clever retort, quip, comeback, put down, bon mot, performance of a
jiu jitsu with the offender's own words. To make him gnash his teeth.
ZL
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Message: 12
From: Zvi Lampel
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 16:06:44 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] V'asu laHEM tsitsis
Speaking of "lachem"...
(BeMidbar 13: 38 ff.) ''And Hashem said to Moshe, saying, speak to the
bnei Yisrael and SAY TO THEM: Make for THEM (asu laHEM) tsitsis...And it
shall be TO YOU v'hayah (laCHEM) for tsitsis...''
Shouldn't it be "Make for YOU (laCHEM)--in the first sentence, as it is in
the second? Who were they to make them for?
Zvi Lampel
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Message: 13
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 10:17:14 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] V'asu laHEM tsitsis
On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 04:06:44PM -0400, Zvi Lampel via Avodah wrote:
> (BeMidbar 13: 38 ff.) ''And Hashem said to Moshe, saying, speak to the
> bnei Yisrael and SAY TO THEM: Make for THEM (asu laHEM) tsitsis...And it
> shall be TO YOU v'hayah (laCHEM) for tsitsis...''
>
> Shouldn't it be "Make for YOU (laCHEM)--in the first sentence, as it is in
> the second? Who were they to make them for?
It would seem to read as HQBH telling Moshe to tell them *that* they
should make tzitzis and -- direct quote, no that" -- repeat this
explanation verbatum, "it should be for you..."
Maybe because making tzitzis for the first time will require
demonstration, it couldn't be relayed in words alone. Hashem was telling
Moshe that the words he is to write in the Chumash isn't enough, make
sure there is enough TSBP / halakhah leMoshe miSinai for them to be
able to do it. Or maybe there is some other reason Msohe was given an
idea to relay to the Jews about the making, but the exact words of the
accompanying mussar shmuess.
But I would shift your question from being about the word use to being
about the implications of that word use.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 13th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp 1 week and 6 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent Yesod sheb'Gevurah: To what extent is judgment
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF necessary for a good relationship?
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