Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 98

Sun, 28 Nov 2021

• 1. Re: titanu (you let us wander) (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Duda'im (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: aveil daven on rosh chodesh (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: ger katan (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Prayer in Temple Times (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: aveil daven on rosh chodesh (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: titanu (you let us wander) (Zev Sero)
• 8. ger katan (Ari Shapiro)
• 9. A Third of Israelis Will Be Ultra-Orthodox by 2050, Forecast Finds (Akiva Miller)
• 10. Re: A Third of Israelis Will Be Ultra-Orthodox by 2050, Forecast Finds (Akiva Miller)
• 11. ?Seeing the Infinite in Torah? A Memorial to the Gaon Rabbi Shelomo Fisher (Author of Beit Yishai) (Prof. L. Levine)
• 12. Re: Story details (Akiva Miller)

On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 03:52:49AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> I always wondered what titanu (you let us wander) was doing at the end
> of the al cheits. Are we blaming HKB"H for our freely made decisions?
> When learning Rambam's hilchot tshuva, it occurs to me saying that he
> can't make us do the right thing, but he can answer our prayer to help
> us identify the right path for us to go through with our own free
> will. Thoughts?

"Bederekh she'adam rotzeh leileikh, sham molikhin oso."

So, if HQBH is willing to lead me astray, what does that mean about
where I wish to go?


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 05:45:04AM +0000, Toby Katz via Avodah wrote:
> But I wanted to know if dudaim really are mandrake roots, or something
> else.  The word duda'im seems to be from a root having to do with love. 

The idea is as old as the Septuigint, which translates "duda'im" to
"mandragoras".

Mandrakes are native to the area.

But they are a narcotic. Eating mandrake isn't the safest thing in the
world to do. It was indeed used as a medicine, but only in the tiniest
of quantities. Perhaps that's why the Ramban says Rachel wanted them
for their smell.

Shir haShirim 7:13 describes duda'im as having a pleasant odor.

I might point out, that in terms of the root of the word, duda'im might
also be named for a connection to breasts and nursing.


Sanhedrin 99b has a 3 way machloqes:
Rav: Yavruchei (T Unqelus on Bereishis agrees)
Leivi: Siglei (sagol = purple)
R Yonasan: Sevisgei

Rashi says the later two are kinds of asavim that are besamim. I am
picturing aromatic wildflowers.

Rashi on the pasuq translates dudaim as siglei (following Leivi in
the gemara), and says it's jasmin.

The Ramban objects simply because Chazal's word for jasmine is "yasmin"
(see Shabbos 55b). Ramban says siglei are "kanpasga", which the gemara
says get a borei asvei besamam when smelled. But he rules against Leivi
because kanpasga don't ripen near Shavuos, and Reuvein went out when
the grain was in the fields.

The Ramban goes with Unqelus because R Chiyya bar Abba (Bereishis Rabba
72:2) also says yavruchin. He doesn't mention it, but we saw Rav said
this as well. The Ramban helps us, since he says the word in Arabic is
"yavruch".

Which is an old Arabic word for mandrake.


As for violets for siglei / siglin, because it's an ancient source of sagol
colored dye... "The Perfume Society" web page on the subject
https://perfumesociety.org/ingredients-post/violet/ says:
   Ah, sweet violets.  Dainty little sweet-scented purple flowers.  Flower
   of fertility, in ancient times - and a cure, too: ...

   But although violet has been giving up its sweetness to perfumers since
   the time of early Arab perfumers, who perfected a technique for
   distilling the oil, it was Empress Marie Louise Bonaparte ...

So, they were used in perfume and thought to be associated with fertility,
not an impossible candidate.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Be happy not because everything is good,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   but because you can see the good side
Author: Widen Your Tent      of everything.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 04:11:50PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> On 17/11/21 1:26 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
>> The implication I got from the Rama is that the problem with an avel
>> taking the amud on R"Ch is Hallel. Which rules out being the Chazan
>> for Shemoneh Esrei too. But there is still Chatzi Qaddish...

> It doesn't preclude Shemoneh Esrei.    The minhag I am most familiar with is
> that on Chanukah (except Rosh Chodesh and Shabbos) an avel does go to the
> amud for Shacharis but steps aside for Hallel and returns for the kaddish.

Qaddish Tisqabeil being postponed until after Hallel implies that
Shemoneh Esrei and Hallel are one unit of tefillah. That, like 18 &
Tachanun, they are the two halves of "tzelos-hon uva's-hon"

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 03:51:50AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> I was looking at ger katan and thinking that he must be patur from 7
> mitzvot for, if not, conversion to Judaism would be a case of going to
> kedusha kala (if chayav as a ben noach but not as a jew).

A qatan is patur because of being a qatan.

But a normal case of geirus would be, if your given is true. Why do you
only ask by geir qatan? And in any case, I don't see the qedushah kalah
you describe being chal yet.

But I am not sure about your assumption. R Papa asks, "Mi ika midi
sheliYisrael shari ule'oveid kokhavim assur?!" (Chullin 33a)

While there are dinim in 7MBN that end up lequlah because of their
interaction with the dinim of Beris Sinai, are Jews peturim from any of
the 7 mitzvos?

To explain my "while": Shechitah defines the end of the animal WRT
Jews. So, if it is still moving, the animal's meat would be eiver min
hachai for non-Jews, but kosher for Jews. Comes up in discussions of
Bereishis Rabba 84:7, quoted by Rashi on the first pasuq of this week's
parashah, Vayeishev. But see the gemara in Chullin for more.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The trick is learning to be passionate in one's
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   ideals, but compassionate to one's peers.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 03:18:35PM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
> Davening was much shorter then than today.  Even later it was shorter. See
> <http://www.hakirah.org/Vol14Zelcer.pdf> Shemoneh Esreh in Eretz Yisrael ca.
> 220-250 CE

But both data points are in EY. Our siddurim derive from Rav Amram
Gaon. Could be EY vs Bavel, rather than then vs now. Or, maybe just R
Amram Gaon's siddur was longer, a one-off that became the norm.

In any case, Chassidim haRishonim, during bayis Sheini, took an hour
to say that shorter Shemoneh Esrei.

So, maybe we are using more words to compensate our inability to
find as much meaning in fewer words?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 A sick person never rejects a healing procedure
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   as "unbefitting." Why, then, do we care what
Author: Widen Your Tent      other people think when dealing with spiritual
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    matters?              - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 24/11/21 3:08 pm, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 04:11:50PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
>> On 17/11/21 1:26 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:

>>> The implication I got from the Rama is that the problem with an avel
>>> taking the amud on R"Ch is Hallel. Which rules out being the Chazan
>>> for Shemoneh Esrei too. But there is still Chatzi Qaddish...

>> It doesn't preclude Shemoneh Esrei.    The minhag I am most familiar with is
>> that on Chanukah (except Rosh Chodesh and Shabbos) an avel does go to the
>> amud for Shacharis but steps aside for Hallel and returns for the kaddish.

> Qaddish Tisqabeil being postponed until after Hallel implies that
> Shemoneh Esrei and Hallel are one unit of tefillah. That, like 18 &
> Tachanun, they are the two halves of "tzelos-hon uva's-hon"

That doesn't preclude someone else from taking over the amud just for 
Hallel.  That's commonly done even without an avel, just because the 
chazan doesn't feel up to doing Hallel.


-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone health, wealth, and
z...@sero.name       happiness in 5782

On 23/11/21 10:52 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> I always wondered what titanu (you let us wander) was doing at the end 
> of the al cheits.

Isn't it  usually translated as "We have led others astray"?

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone health, wealth, and
z...@sero.name       happiness in 5782

The Minchas Chinuch in Mitzva 190 states that the ages of adulthood of 12
and 13 only apply to Jews because they are part of shiurim which is a
Halacha lMoshe misinai. Therefore, a non-Jew is chayav in the 7 mitzvos at
whatever age he understands them even before the age of 12 or 13. The
Chasam Sofer makes a similar assumption in a teshuva (Yoreh Deah 317).
Therefore an 11 or 12 year old boy who converts was chayav in the 7 mitzvos
before he converted.
-- 
Ari Shapiro
054 6632328
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On Areivim, in the thread titled "A Third of Israelis Will Be
Ultra-Orthodox by 2050, Forecast Finds", R' Yitchok Levine linked us to the
Haaretz version of this story, and commented:

<<< I have some problems with the arithmetic in this article.  One out of 3
is one-third not a quarter! >>>

I don't subscribe to Haaretz, but I did read the JTA version of this report
(
https://www.jta.org/2021/11/23/israel/nearly-1-in-3-israeli-jews-will-be-haredi-orthodox-by-2050-per-israeli-economic-projections),
and I too was amused by the arithmetic. Specifically:

The headline was <<< Nearly 1 in 3 Israeli Jews will be haredi Orthodox by
2050, per Israeli economic projections >>>

The first paragraph said basically the same thing: <<< Nearly one third of
Israel?s Jewish population will be haredi Orthodox by the year 2050,
according to projections by Israel?s National Economic Council. >>>

The second paragraph gave a different number, which was still clearly
labeled as an estimate: <<< ... about a quarter are projected by Israel?s
National Economic Council to be haredi Orthodox, ... >>>

Finally, the third paragraph gives a specific number, unqualified by weasel
words like "nearly" or "about": <<< By 2050, that figure will rise to 24%
of the total population, the council claims. >>>

My point is that for some definitions of the word "nearly", it is not false
to say that 24% is nearly one third. And for almost *any* definition of
"about", it is not false to say that 24% is about a quarter. And yet, I
think most would agree that the headline was clearly exaggerated to attract
our attention.

Is this exaggeration wrong? Should we be complaining about it? Should we
feel misled by a headline that gives a figure more than a third higher than
the actual percentage stated in the article?

I would suggest that the editors did NOT do anything wrong here. Their goal
was to draw our attention to an article that they felt we should look at,
and the headline succeeded in doing that (at least for RYL and myself).

Up to this point, this post was fit for Areivim. Here's the question which
brings us into Avodah territory: If you're offended by the exaggeration in
this headline, how do you feel when (for example, by mitzvos hat'luyos
baaretz) the Torah Sheb'ksav says "all", and the Torah Sheb'al Peh explains
"rubo k'kulo - majority is just as significant as the entirety." L'havdil,
but the means and ends seem similar in both cases: get the reader's
attention by deliberately overstating the facts, and then explain the
details.

Comments?

Akiva Miller
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.
R' Yitzchok Levine and I both complained about the math, and how estimates
exaggerated the actual figures. But R' Ari Zivotofsky wrote to me offlist,
and allowed me to post to you all:

> the math was fine - some were talking about percentage of JEWISH
population
> and some of TOTAL population. re-read

They estimate that in 2050, the Jewish population will remain at 80% of the
total population, meaning that 80% of the 16 million total will be Jewish.
That comes to 12,800,000 Jews. They also say that Chareidim will be 24% of
the total 16 million, or 3,840,000 Charedi Jews.

Summary of their estimates for the year 2050:
A) Total human population of Israel: 16,000,000
B) Total Jewish population of Israel: about 12,800,000 - about 80% of A
C) Charedi population of Israel: 3,840,000 - 30% of B, 24% of A

I have posted additional details about these numbers on Areivim. Some of
you don't read Areivim, so I'm posting this summary here as an attempt to
repair some of the damage I caused by accusing the authors of severely
exaggerating the figures. In actual fact, I see no exaggeration at all.
Referring to 24% as "about a quarter" should not be wrong in anyone's book.

And referring to 30% as "a third" isn't much of an exaggeration either. The
only real exaggeration occurs when someone (such as ME!) reads the headline
and jumps to conclusions, and thinks that the author refers to 3,840,000 as
"a third" of 16,000,000.

But my question to Avodah still stands. Suppose that article - or some
other article - HAD contained a major exaggeration. I suspect that this
would not be a problem from a Torah perspective.

In my previous post I cited the mathematical exaggeration, that the Torah
requires only a simple majority of Jews to be living in Eretz Yisrael for
certain mitzvos to apply, yet the wording in the written Torah refers to
"kulchem" - ALL of you. In today's post, I'll expand that to moral
exaggerations, where the Torah tells us that a certain tzadik "sinned", and
then we are taught that it wasn't really an actual sin at all, "merely" a
severe moral failure. So too, I suspect that the Torah has no objection to
exaggeration in the headline of an article.

Akiva Miller
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Please see the article at

https://seforimblog.com/2021/11/seeing-the-infinite-in-torah-a-memorial-to-the-gaon-rabbi-shelomo-fisher-author-of-beit-yishai/

This is a long article about Rabbi Shelomo Yehonathan Yehudah Fisher who
was born in Jerusalem in 1932. He was a true talmud chocham who devoted his
entire life to learning Torah.

I had never heard of him until I read this article. I found it a fascinating read.

Professor Yitzchok Levine



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.
Regarding Bereshis 37:18, I asked:

> How far away was Yosef when they saw him and recognized him? Exactly
*how* did
> they recognize him? One possibility is that Yosef was close enough for
them to
> see the details of this stranger's face, but in that case, how was there
enough
> time for them to formulate their plan? (It is clear from the pasuk that
the
> planning was done in the time between seeing him and getting close.) Was
Yosef
> carrying a large flag with his name on it?

For the benefit of anyone else who might have been pondering this question,
I got the same answer this morning from two different people; first from my
friend Andrew Kent at kiddush, and then from my granddaughter Shulamis
Miller at lunch. Namely: If Yosef was wearing the k'sones passim, the
brothers would probably have been able to recognize him even at a great
distance.

Akiva Miller
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