Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 27

Thu, 15 Mar 2018

< Previous Next >
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 08:52:59 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] Underlying Truth of the Realm Holiness in Israel


The following is part of RSRH's commentary on Shemos 35


22 The men came, along with the women, all, moved by their hearts:
they brought brooches, nose-rings, rings and buckles, all kinds of golden objects, and everyone who had assigned an offering of gold to G-d.


The underlying truth of the realm of holiness in Israel is that this
realm is not superhuman, towering above and negating ordinary life
and its conditions. On the contrary, the altar must be erected on the
earth itself, with nothing intervening between the altar and the earth.
The altar of the Torah was erected not on the verdant Mount Gerizim,
but on the desolate Mount Eival (see Commentary, Bereshis 12:6-7).
So, too, in general, the Sanctuary of the Torah presupposes the concrete
reality of human earthly existence. The Sanctuary is directly connected
with this reality, and is to be actualized, without separation, in the
reality of life. For the highest goal and highest holiness is basically just
that purpose and that actualization for which man was created in his
earthliness and physical life.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20180312/8110e478/attachment-0001.html>


Go to top.

Message: 2
From: Ben Waxman
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 05:48:14 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] pressuring witnesses


Anyone who watched Shababnikim saw the episode in which the police 
investigator threatened to reveal to a web site embarrassing information 
about a yeshiva bachur if the bachur didn't provide the detective with 
information about a crime.

According to Halacha is this technique kosher? Would shotrim working in 
the framework of a Sanhedrin be allowed to use it? Does it matter what 
the crime was (in this case it was arson)?

Ben




Go to top.

Message: 3
From: hankman
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 18:06:22 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] Interval between Tal and Geshem


Tephilas Tal is done on the 1st day of Pessach while Geshem is done on
Shmini Atzeret. The common reason given for not doing Geshem on the 1st day
of yomtov is that we delay the reference to rain until after we have
completed the mitzvoh of Succah. I wonder if there may also be an
astronomical reason as well. Since the earth?s orbit is elliptical and the
velocity of the planet varies with the season. The result is that the ?half
year? from spring equinox through summer to  the fall equinox, is about 7-8
days longer than the ?half year? from the fall equinox through the winter
back to the spring equinox. Thus it would make sense that Geshem would be
delayed by the week of yomtov while Tal would not be. Of course the
Rambam?s constant  length for the tekuphot is an average number ? the same
for all of them. Does anyone offer this reasoning?

Kol tuv
Chaim Manaster


---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20180313/59159f6a/attachment-0001.html>


Go to top.

Message: 4
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 13:10:51 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Interval between Tal and Geshem


On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 06:06:22PM -0500, hankman via Avodah wrote:
: Tephilas Tal is done on the 1st day of Pessach while Geshem is done
: on Shmini Atzeret...                  I wonder if there may also be an
: astronomical reason as well. Since the earth's orbit is elliptical and
: the velocity of the planet varies with the season. The result is that
: the "half year" from spring equinox through summer to the fall equinox,
: is about 7-8 days longer than the "half year" from the fall equinox
: through the winter back to the spring equinox...

Brilliant!

A problem is, our tefillos aren't even as precise as our years. We use
Tequfas Shemu'el for davening (at least for Birkhas haShanim in chu"l
and for Birkhs haChamah), and Tequfas R' Adda for calendar calculations.
You are assuming more precision than we see evidenced as a goal for chazal.

OTOH, if the precision doesn't add to the complexity of implementation,
why not? We generally use Tequfas Shemi'el for davening because a simple
365-1/4 day year can be implemented by the masses. Whereas we only need
the Sanhedrin (or their proxy, but still not everyone) to be capable
of making the calendar. This rule, based on Jewish calendar dates,
is easy to implement AND more accurate. So perhaps.

Well, more accurate on average. We're talking about 7-8 days
in contrast to the 11 day average slippage of a regular year,
or the 22+ days of a me'uberes.

http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/Books/Syntaxis/Almagest/node36.html
spells out your application of Keppler's Law and concludes:
> ... Thus, the length of spring is 92.8 days, the length of summer 93.6
> days, and the length of autumn 89.9 days. Finally, the length of winter is
> the length of the tropical year (i.e., the time period between successive
> vernal equinoxes), which is 360/0.98564735 = 325.24 days, minus the
> sum of the lengths of the other three seasons. This gives 88.9 days.

Adding Spring and Summer, we get 186.4 days for the dry season, and
similar addition yields 178.8 days for the rainy one. A difference of
7.6 days, as stated.

However, Mar 21 to Sep 21 is only 3 more days than Sep 21 to Mar 21. Which
is why I was looking at the math.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When one truly looks at everyone's good side,
mi...@aishdas.org        others come to love him very naturally, and
http://www.aishdas.org   he does not need even a speck of flattery.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabbi AY Kook



Go to top.

Message: 5
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 20:00:02 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] deprive the minyan of the opportunity to say


The Mishna Brurah (O"C 131:26) contains a psak that always interested me -
Tov lizaher shelo yichnas hachatan l'beit haknesset (a chatan should not go
to shul)-in order not to deprive the minyan of the opportunity to say
tachanun. The piskei tshuvot (O"C 13:23) takes issue but the Chashukei
Chemed (Yoma S2:) has an insight on a related question which goes to a
somewhat broader issue. He was asked whether one who has the choice of
going to two minyanim can choose to go to the one where a chatan is
davening in order to skip tachanun. His response is if he is going for that
reason it's not appropriate (he's running from a mitzvah), but if he's
going to be part of the simcha or for the midat harachamim (the attribute
of mercy) it's permitted [back to my favorite question-OK, but what does
HKB"H want of me?]
KT
Joel Rich

THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20180314/bc17a211/attachment-0001.html>


Go to top.

Message: 6
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 20:01:04 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] lashon hara


My comment to a Lashon Hara Shiur-Your thoughts?
I pretty much agree with what you said in your shiur. I would simply add
that most of the standard shiurim (an area that I actually have expertise
:-)) usually end not just with the seven item checklist but saying that
most situations are complex and that you must consult with rabbinic
authority. This to me has always seemed a real punt as in real life you
can't consult all the time. The key in my humble opinion is to develop a
sense that allows one to function in the real world based on role models.
KT
Joel Rich

THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20180314/17732726/attachment-0001.html>


Go to top.

Message: 7
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 16:32:56 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Big Bang and Boltzmann Brains


By definition, low entroy states are unlikely. The idea that the Big
Bang started all of the visible universe off in a low entropy state is
a less likely theory than one of us being a Boltzmann Brain.

A Boltzmann Brain is a hypothetical self-aware entity that arises due
to extremely rare random fluctuations out of a state of thermodynamic
equilibrium. It thinks there is a universe and a personal history,
that it has a body etc... But the perceptions are disconnected from
everything outside it. ("The Matrix", or "Brain in a Vat", or
Bishop Berkley's ontology, in which we can't know whether we really
sense the world around us, or just collect sensations.)

In other words, it is actually less likely that there is a universe of
the sort we think we live in than that you are a cloud of atoms that
coincidentally move around to think it is a person living on a planet
within a universe. Just look at the particles involved in each case,
the number of possible arrangements, and the number of arrangements that
have the desired properties.

That assertion is mathematically provable. (And discussed enough for
"Boltzmann Brain" to be a buzzword.) And then was the scramble to defuse
the bomb. See this article.
<http://nautil.us/blog/-can-many_worlds-theory-rescue-us-from-boltzmann-brains>

Of course, asserting that the initial entropy of the universe wasn't
random -- or redefining "random" to include H's hashgachah -- would also
solve the problem.

Occam's Razor, or a variant thereof that includes probability theory,
is strongly on the side of a Creator.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When one truly looks at everyone's good side,
mi...@aishdas.org        others come to love him very naturally, and
http://www.aishdas.org   he does not need even a speck of flattery.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabbi AY Kook



Go to top.

Message: 8
From: Ben Waxman
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 20:28:25 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] deprive the minyan of the opportunity to say


A few months ago I was in the main shul in a yishuv. The shul was quite 
large. There was a psak there by the shul rav stating in a small 
community shul, where everyone knows everyone, it makes complete sense 
that if there is a chatan, then one doesn't say tachanun. However, in 
this shul, in which strangers pray there every day and even not all the 
members know everyone, the presence of a chatan doesn't really add to 
their simcha. That being the case, visitors to the shul should say 
tachanun, even if the congregation doesn't.

I don't know how that would work in practice, but it was interesting to 
see someone actually say that you have to have some connection to the 
ba'al simcha.

On 3/14/2018 10:00 PM, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> The Mishna Brurah (O?C 131:26) contains a psak that always interested 
> me ? Tov lizaher shelo yichnas hachatan l?beit haknesset (a chatan 
> should not go to shul)?in order not to deprive the minyan of the 
> opportunity to say tachanun. The piskei tshuvot (O?C 13:23) takes 
> issue but the Chashukei Chemed (Yoma S2:) has an insight on a related 
> question which goes to a somewhat broader issue. He was asked whether 
> one who has the choice of going to two minyanim can choose to go to 
> the one where a chatan is davening in order to skip tachanun. His 
> response is if he is going for that reason it?s not appropriate (he?s 
> running from a mitzvah), but if he?s going to be part of the simcha or 
> for the midat harachamim (the attribute of mercy) it?s permitted [back 
> to my favorite question?OK, but what does HKB?H want of me?]
> KT





Go to top.

Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:54:16 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Underlying Truth of the Realm Holiness in Israel


On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 08:52:59AM +0000, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: The following is part of RSRH's commentary on Shemos 35
...
:> The underlying truth of the realm of holiness in Israel is that this
:> realm is not superhuman, towering above and negating ordinary life
:> and its conditions. On the contrary, the altar must be erected on the
:> earth itself, with nothing intervening between the altar and the earth.

Addressing the first clause, the Meshekh Chokhmah repeatedly explains
that qedushah of an item or location is never inherent; it is always
the consequence of a person embuing it.

Qedushah is only inherent to Hashem. People can make things qadosh when
they dedicate them to avodas Hashem.

The canonical source is his comment on Shemos 19:13, constrasting Har
Sinai being holy during an event, and Har haBayis. The latter was
human consecrated. Divine Revelation is a holy event, but no person
consecrated the mountain for avodas Hashem.

But even "umiqdashi tira'u" (Vayiqra 19:30) gets a comment quoting
Yavamos 6b, "Not of the miqdash should you have yir'ah, but from He
Who commanded about the miqdash." A consecrated item isn't an ontology.

As I wrote here in 2009
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol26/v26n191.shtml#07>
> According to the Meshech Chokhmah, all qedushah derives from human
> activity. There is no such thing as an inherently holy place or object.
> E.g. his explanation of cheit ha'eigel as being based in the error
> that Benei Yisrael thought Moshe's qedushah was intrinstic. And
> the lesson of the breaking of the luchos is that even something
> carved by HQBH Himself has no qedushah if not a focus of avodah. See
> http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/modern/20modern.htm for R' Elyakim
> Krumbein's longer discussion with numerous examples.

See also MC on Bamidbar 3:45

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
mi...@aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l



Go to top.

Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 12:36:13 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Besamim and Havdala


On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 07:47:11AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: Thank you. Many years ago I learned Rama 299:10, which distinguishes
: between a "melacha gemura" and other melachos...

He makes a nafqa mina lemaaseh between them, but left me guessing what
their definitions are. The Rama's examples of "other melakhos" are
hadlaqas haneir and hotza'ah meireshus lirshus. Okay, hotza'ah has
a long history of being labeled a melakhah garu'ah. But what makes
havarah less of a malakhah gemura than any other?

(The end of that Rama talks about a minhag he never saw of drawing water
motza"sh, when the Be'eir Miyam is "soveiv ... kol habe'eiros". And
anyone who is "pogeia' bo veyishteh mimenu" will be healed from all
their illnesses. It had me wondering how long I would need to leave the
tap on in order to get all of the water already out of the be'eir out
of my pipes, so that I would get such water. Then I wondered if any
Passaic's water is artesianal anyway.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If you're going through hell
mi...@aishdas.org        keep going.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - Winston Churchill
Fax: (270) 514-1507



Go to top.

Message: 11
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 15:11:33 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] lashon hara


On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 08:01:04PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: My comment to a Lashon Hara Shiur-Your thoughts?

: I pretty much agree with what you said in your shiur. I would simply add
: that most of the standard shiurim (an area that I actually have expertise
: :-)) usually end not just with the seven item checklist but saying that
: most situations are complex and that you must consult with rabbinic
: authority. This to me has always seemed a real punt as in real life you
: can't consult all the time. The key in my humble opinion is to develop a
: sense that allows one to function in the real world based on role models.

Maybe the typical speaker believes he chose a topic interesting enough to
speak about because it has complexities that people shouldnt be fielding
on their own, without consulting their own poseiq. So its not a matter
of in real life you cant consult all the time because most of the time
they arent shiur-worthy questions.

As for your solution: to develop a sense that allows one to function in
the real world based on role models. I think that marks you as basically
a mimeticist doing whats right by copying rather than studying in the
abstract. Although only basically because of the conscious choice of
who is a roll model.

I know (from the response to the above comment when posted on
Torah Musings) that 
> ... these halachot create a type of fuzzy logic system that just
> studying the rules is insufficient to get a true sense of how to weight
> conflicting priorities and require someone to learn how to fish rather
> than continually coming back for a piece

Yes, when things are no sufficiently algoritmic to be able to decide
from study alone, one needs shimush and immersion in the culture. This
is what mimeticism does best -- the non FORMal education.

But I think it's unfair to expect someone giving a shiur who is neither
the audience's primary rav or rebbe to teach them how to fish. It's a
one-shot discussion.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
mi...@aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507



Go to top.

Message: 12
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 15:14:28 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] deprive the minyan of the opportunity to say


On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 08:00:02PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
:       ... The piskei tshuvot (O"C 13:23) takes issue but the Chashukei
: Chemed (Yoma S2:) has an insight on a related question which goes to
: a somewhat broader issue. He was asked whether one who has the choice
: of going to two minyanim can choose to go to the one where a chatan
: is davening in order to skip tachanun. His response is if he is going
: for that reason it's not appropriate (he's running from a mitzvah),
: but if he's going to be part of the simcha or for the midat harachamim
: (the attribute of mercy) it's permitted [back to my favorite question-OK,
: but what does HKB"H want of me?]

In other words:
    Echad hamarbeh, ve'echad hamam'it,
    ubilvad sheyikhavein libo lashamayim.

Running to be mistateif in the simchah is a mam'it shekivein libo
lashamayim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life is complex.
mi...@aishdas.org                Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org               The Torah is complex.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                                - R' Binyamin Hecht



Go to top.

Message: 13
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 12:57:41 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] hagba


On Fri, Mar 09, 2018 at 05:39:22PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: On a related note, Does anyone else feel some folks focus on the length
: of the tekiah gedolah takes away from the mitzvah?

I thought the whole point of having a makri is to dump the job of making
sure the maaseh mitzvah is fulfilled on one person, so that everyone else
is freed up to be moved by the shofar. Otherwise, why would we need to
appoint someone to keep the toqeia' in sequence? If he messes up, anyone
from the minyan can "Nu! Shevarim!"

So, if timing the teqi'os against the (eg) shevarim-teru'ah between them
is something the minyan is maqpid about, shouldn't that timing be dumped
on the maqri as well?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The goal isn't to live forever,
mi...@aishdas.org        the goal is to create so mething that will.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507



Go to top.

Message: 14
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 15:04:07 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Chilul Hashem


On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 09:51:22PM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote:
: I've been trying to work out what I think is a basic question in
: hilchos chilul hashem.

Tangent: The expression "chilul hasheim" (ChS) is older than referring to
G-d as "Hashem". And besides, the notion of desecrating the Unchangable
One makes no sense. The term is intended to be "desecration of the
name/reputation" of G-d, which is why I spell it "hasheim" and not
"Hashem".

: The gemara in Yuma 86a , says that someone who learns Torah and
: interacts positively with people is mekadesh H', darshened from the
: pasuk 'V'ahavta es H' Elokecha' - 'You should cause others to love
: Hashem'. Conversely [ch"v]...

Notice the gemara doesn't limit this to a person who is "gadol baTorah
umeforsim bachasidus", to quote the Rambam you cite, Yesodei haTorah 5:11.
For that matter, among the examples of behaviors the gemara lists as
something that has people associate his behavior with sheim Hashem and
Torah is "umeshameish TC" -- we're talking about students!

Working just from the gemara, any visibly O Jew should assume that non-O
Jews and non-Jews (and many O Jews as well) will similarly judge Devar H'
by their actions.

Within that, there will obviously be a matter of degree. If you are a
known gadol baTorah, then the coupling in peole's minds is tighter than
if you are studying with or apprenticing under a TC, and of course the
one trying to become a TC more than the rest of us. And so Rav, and R'
Yochanan each explains what the demands are of someone with a reputation
"kegon ana". R Nachman Bar Yitzchaq gives the example, "that people say
'May his Master forgive Plonia.'" Nothing about "like me", just anyone
who causes people to say this.

> Rashi indicates this gemara refers to an 'adam chashuv', who is
> known for his Torah learning'.

The only occurance of "adam chashuv" in Rashi on that sugya is "keshe-..."
in d"h "be'emor lahem am H' eileh" (on the gemara's quote of Yechezqeil
36:20). No mention of being known for Torah learning, although the rest of
the paragraph in the gemara does.

And, interestingly, Rashi doesn't only talk about the adam chashuv
sinning, but that he sins and pur'anos come on him, and everyone says
"what did it benefit him". I would have thought the ChS was that the
Torah and frumkeit didn't produce better people, and that's what the
Rambam talks about as well, Rashi seems to be saying the ChS is that
people will think he deserves a better fate than he's getting, and the
problem of theodicy is the ChS. He gets this from the use of the pasuq,
which talks about nakhrim that the Jews are exiled among saying "am
Hashem eileh?!" and (Rashi adds) Hashem couldn't save them? (Yechezqil
continues "umei'atzo yatz'u".)

So, Rashi speaks of two examples, the Adam chashuv and national. It
would seem they are indeed examples, and the logic stated by the gemara
would apply to a lesser extent to any observant individual.

The question remains why the Rambam speaks in terms of gedolim, without
giving other examples to imply it's not ONLY of gedolim. Without the
Rambam, things point to gedolim having to be more careful, but each
person has to watch their middos and appearances proportional to how
much people identify them with Torah observance.

Among the Rambam's list in 5:11 is "sheyirbeh bischoq" (being overly
silly?). Kesef Mishnah (ad loc) sources R' Yehudah in the mishnah (Demai
pereq 2) who says that someone who accepts chaveirus should also accept
not to be overly silly (shelo yarbeh bischoq). And the KM says that when
the Chakhamim disagree, that's only that being trusted on maaser isn't
a level where this appearance issue would be a ChS. But the chakhamim
would agree that a TC shouldn't. Thus the Rambam.

So it would seem that the KM doesn't take the Rambam's discussing only an
"adam gadol baTorah umfusam bachasidus" to mean the issue only applies
to gedolim. Just that gedolim have to be very very careful.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness
mi...@aishdas.org        which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost
http://www.aishdas.org   again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH



Go to top.

Message: 15
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 12:49:20 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Besht


On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 11:59:50PM +0200, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
: B"H these rabbanim disagree. Having unity of thought would (amongst
: other things) make the Torah quite boring. The differences make it
: quite fun (amongst other things).

I used to think that "chanokh lenaar al pi darko" referred to students
having different learning styles. However, ont of the chevrah pointed
out that that doesn't fit the seifa of the pasuq (Mishlei 22:6):
"... qam ki yazqin, lo yasur mimenahh" (mapiq hei). So, this "derekh"
is something we don't want this person to leave even when they get old.

Which is something other than the personal way they need to be established
(/ch-n-kh/) to begin with. Important point, but not our pasuq's.

It seems the pasuq is saying that your child should be taught on approach
to Torah that works for them, EVEN IF IT IS NOT YOURS. Our goal in chinukh
should be to produce ovedei Hashem, regardless of which O submovement
they will end up gravitating toward.

And as I've noted a few times on Areivim, without spelling out the above
justification for invoking "al pi darko", much of the OTD rate is due to
the height of the walls we have between O communities. So one kid leaves
what feels to him like a compromised, watered down, Judaism, and perhaps
had his MO parents would have considered a yeshivish option, they would
have stayed observant yerei E-lokim. Or the kid unimpressed with legalism,
who would have used more of chassidus's expriential style. Or the chareidi
youngster who left because he felt sufficated and force into a role he
wasn't made for, perhaps MO would have been a better fit.

Unity of thought stam doesn't work.

This is why we talk not only of 70 panim laTorah but even 60 ribo osios.
Every home (Bamidbar's counts are of 600k potential householders, but
maybe it means every individual) has its own derekh.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Every child comes with the message
mi...@aishdas.org        that God is not yet discouraged with
http://www.aishdas.org   humanity.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Rabindranath Tagore


------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodahareivim-membership-agreement/


You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org


When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."

A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodah-acronyms
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)


< Previous Next >