Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 97

Fri, 28 Jul 2017

• 1. question of interest? (Rich, Joel)
• 2. a matter of doubt? (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Re: Showering during the Nine days (Ari Kahn)
• 4. Re: question of interest? (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: question of interest? (Rich, Joel)
• 6. Re: question of interest? (Mordechai Torczyner)
• 7. Re: Book review: Alternative Medicine in Halachah (Rich, Joel)
• 8. Decentralizing Authority (Micha Berger)

the Ritva on kiddushin 6b says ribbit (illegal interest) must be returned
by the lender, but it is not gezel (robbery) or a tikkun lav (as in lav
hanitak l'aseh). So what is the force that causes the return? Does the
lender have to give maser ksafim from it??

Kt

Joel rich

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From "Religion Within Reason" by Steven Cahn: "To have faith is to put
aside any doubts, and doing so is sometimes beneficial, because doubt may
be counter productive . . . To describe someone as a person of faith
suggests that the individual is strong-willed, fearless, and unwavering."
Question to all - what percentage of the frum world have no doubts? How
many don't think about it at all?

Kt

Joel rich

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see:
Is it permissible to shower during the Nine Days?
http://arikahn.blogspot.co.il/2012/07/is-it-permissible-to-s
hower-during-nine.html
[or <http://j.mp/2w33Bll> -mi]

On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 01:13:33PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: the Ritva on kiddushin 6b says ribbit (illegal interest) must be returned
: by the lender, but it is not gezel (robbery) or a tikkun lav (as in lav
: hanitak l'aseh). So what is the force that causes the return? Does the
: lender have to give maser ksafim from it??

I am in the middle of R' Mordechai Torczyner's (CC-ed, please include
him in replies) shiurim on ribis.
http://www.yutorah.org/search/?teacher=81072&;category=0,234696

In particular, shiurim no.s 3-5 are about refunds. It's under 2 hrs
total, and if you know something of the sugya, 1.25x speed is doable.

The first lines of the source sheet to those shiurim is "Lamah yeish
chiyuv lehachzir ribis?"
http://www.yutorah.org/download.cfm?materialID=529082


If it's because the money is owed, then I would think the maaser kesafim
was already accounted for the first time you earned the money.
If it's because of an asei, then perhaps receiving the ribbis back would
be subject to maaser kesafim.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 01:13:33PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: the Ritva on kiddushin 6b says ribbit (illegal interest) must be returned
: by the lender, but it is not gezel (robbery) or a tikkun lav (as in lav
: hanitak l'aseh). So what is the force that causes the return? Does the
: lender have to give maser ksafim from it??

If it's because the money is owed, then I would think the maaser kesafim
was already accounted for the first time you earned the money.
If it's because of an asei, then perhaps receiving the ribbis back would
be subject to maaser kesafim.

-Micha

-- Agreed-my challenge with the ritva is that he seems to say it is
something else (I'm not sure what unless u say it is because of the aseih
but not a tikkun for the lav)
KT
Joel Rich
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On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 1:17 PM, Rich, Joel <JR...@sibson.com> wrote:
>> If it's because the money is owed, then I would think the maaser kesafim
>> was already accounted for the first time you earned the money.
>> If it's because of an asei, then perhaps receiving the ribbis back would
>> be subject to maaser kesafim.
...
> Agreed-my challenge with the ritva is that he seems to say it is
> something else (I'm not sure what unless u say it is because of the aseih
> but not a tikkun for the lav)
> KT

Hi R' Joel,

Indeed, the Ritva's view is that ribbis, once paid, belongs to the
creditor. The creditor is obligated to pay it back, but the money is his
for purposes including Kiddushin. Other applications include whether the
borrower has the power to forgive the repayment, and whether the creditor's
heirs have a duty to repay.

Kol tuv,
Mordechai
<http://www.hamakor.org>

The following statement was made , "The rabbis of the Talmud certainly
didn't use a chi-squared test or regression and correlation analysis as we
know it, they did operate with sophisticated levels of statistical
analysis, the best of what was known to them in their time."
==============================
I'd appreciate specific examples
==============================
Joel ? I was basing it off examples by Rabbi Nahum Eliezer Rabinovitch,
Rosh Yeshiva of Birkat Moshe in Ma'ale Adumim in his book: Probability and
Statistical Inference in Ancient and Mediaeval Jewish Literature.

https://www.amazon.com/Probability-Statistical-Infe
rence-Mediaeval-Literature/dp/0802018629

=====================
I finally tracked down a copy of the book and read through it-I?d simply
say that one must underline heavily the statement ?the best of what was
known to them in their time?
KT
Joel Rich
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I read Rachel Levmore's "Decentralizing Religious Authority" at
<http://www.thelehrhaus.com/commentary-short-a
rticles/2017/7/26/decentralizing-religious-authority>

Teaser:

   Overview
   Orthodox Jewish life used to be a simpler matter for those who wanted
   to lead one. There was an unspoken system in place. One could approach
   the local rabbi with a question. If he didn't know, scholars higher up
   in the "hierarchy" could weigh in until the question reached the "gadol
   hador." Despite the plurality of approaches which always existed, there
   was a definitive address whose opinion would be accepted by all (or
   almost all).

   Alas, the last of the great Torah giants, those respected by Orthodox
   Jewry the world-over even in cases of disagreement, have passed on.
   Rabbis Moshe Feinstein, Joseph B. Soloveitchik, Menachem Schneerson,
   Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, and Ovadiah Yosef are all gone. The present
   circumstances, which have witnessed a breakdown of authority in general
   society coupled with the absence of an uncontested authoritative Torah
   scholar, has led to absurd situations.

   Lacking agreed-upon "gedolim" today, a void exists...

   Without any proper halakhic discourse between various rabbis who deem
   themselves to be leaders (even if they lack followers)...

And so on, with a pretty sociological take on the problem, and how it
applies to controversy over the halachic prenup. As is usual for me, I'm
intrigued by the theoretical meta-issue.

Given that we've entered an era that there is a dirth of gedolim whose
rulings are followed across multiple communities and eidot, is there a
significant change to how halakhah is done?

And I'm not saying this is entirely about nisqatnu hadoros, and how
today's gedolim aren't like those of my youth. Some of it is also the
effects of universal education, google, social-media cynicism and echo
chamber, and the social trends that cause the popularity of such social
media, and other societal changes that made people less likely to respect
authority that isn't fully in agreement with what they decided the truth
should be.

Returning to snipping from the article:

   The Internet is not the forum for halakhic rows. Rabbinic tradition
   prescribes that halakhic disputes be conducted in depth, not
   superficially through "virtual" statements in cyberspace. Proper
   procedure dictates that rabbinic forums be held where differences of
   opinions can be [19]discussed face to face. If that is not possible,
   then [20]scholarly books are written or [21]rabbinic articles
   published. Alarmist attempts to create fear among innocent lay-people
   cannot be considered credible halakhic writing.

And:
         [I]t is not for naught that the Mishnah directs us to choose who
   is our rabbi: [24]aseh lekha rav. It is your responsibility as a
   God-fearing Jew to determine which rabbi you will follow, according to
   your perception of his righteousness, scholarship, and
   derekh--philosophy of Jewish life.

   For a variety of reasons, it should be a rabbi who lives in the same
   community as you, not least since he would then be familiar with the
   challenges and facts of your life. In the United States, the Rabbinical
   Council of America has assembled an impressive body of rabbinic
   figures...

   Visible links
  ...
  19. http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/A-plea-from-Jerusalem-
  to-the-worlds-Orthodox-rabbis-483210
  20. https://books.google.com/books/about/%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%A2%D7%99_%D7%A
  2%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%9A_%D7%9E%D7%93%D7%9E%D7%A2%D7%94.html?id=FpsqQwAA
  CAAJ
  24. https://www.sefaria.org/Pirkei_Avot.1.6?lang=bi&;with=all&lang2=en

My first stab at answering my own question is to wonder how long halakhah
has been centralized around a few globally known gedolim.

From the geonim until the late 19th century, were there any?

And even when there was a few posqim the whole world turned to (eg the
geonim), how many question did they go to the gedolim for? Wouldn't
the size of the world back then mean that most questions were far more
local, with the mara de'asra having much more of a final say, with
consensus being more of a regional thing?

If halachic authority is being decentralized, is that something new, or
a reversion to the norm, to how non-Sanhedrin (or as the Rambam would have
it, post-talmudic) halakhah supposed to work?

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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