Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 72

Fri, 02 Jun 2017

• 1. Re: Maharat (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Re: Maharat (Ben Waxman)
• 3. Re: Maharat (Akiva Miller)
• 4. matched soldier and praying for them (M Cohen)
• 5. Re: Maharat (Ilana Elzufon)
• 6. Elimelech's land (Akiva Miller)
• 7. Ruth Hamoaviah (Akiva Miller)
• 8. Re: Should one stand for the Aseres Hadibros? (ADE)
• 9. Re: Should one stand for the Aseres Hadibros? (Zev Sero)
• 10. A Holiday Afterthought (Cantor Wolberg)
• 11. Re: A Holiday Afterthought (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Ruth Hamoaviah (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: Ruth Hamoaviah (Lisa Liel)
• 14. Re: Elimelech's land (Ben Waxman)
• 15. Re: Elimelech's land (Zev Sero)

Yes! But on the other hand, most of us also live in an "outside world" that
is highly egalitarian. I think many of us, perhaps without conscious
thought, have an egalitarian relationship with our spouse that would have
been very rare a few generations ago. We aren't going to give up voting, or
having our own bank accounts, or attending top universities, or entering
just about whatever profession we like (as long as it isn't rabbi, sofer,
chazan, etc...). And I don't think it is wrong for those changes in the
experiences of women and couples and families and communities to affect
religious practice, to move us in a somewhat more egalitarian direction
WITHIN what is halachically permitted.
----------------------------------------------------


KT
Joel Rich (full disclosure-kach mkublani mbeit avi abba-not everything that is permitted to you should be done)
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Probably the best and most succinct historical analogy I've seen for 
this question.
Ben

On 5/29/2017 11:51 PM, Ilana Elzufon via Avodah wrote:
>
> Twenty years ago, I used to say that I wasn't sure if Orthodox women 
> rabbis would end up being a "mechitza issue" or a "sermon in the 
> vernacular issue." Today, at least from my position in Israel, it 
> seems to be shaping up as the latter.

R' Noam Stadlan asked:

: The other point which really hasn't been adequately unravelled is whether
: semicha is synonymous with heter hora'ah? something different? can someone
: have heter hora'ah and not semicha?

I agree that an answer to this is crucial to the conversation.

Many times, people have told me that the author of the Mishne Berura
did not get semicha until very late in life when he needed the
ordination for some government paperwork. And yet, he was quite
involved with hora'ah, and we rely on his paskening even today. How
can this be? Dare we imagine that he did such things unauthorizedly?
Certainly he must have had/received some sort of Heter Hora'ah. If so,
then when and how did he get it - and without getting semicha at the
same time?

Akiva Miller

A while ago on Avodah, a well known (chareidi) Baal machshava was quoted as
disagreeing strongly with the concept of matching frum people with a nonfrum
soldier in order to pray for them.

"we have no brotherhood with secular Israelis"

Recently, I posted to Avodah a link to a collection of 1400 short tshuvot
from HaRav Shlomo Miller Shlitah (of Toronto)

On the above topic, he writes there..

#600 Pray As They Go

Q. There are two organizations here in Eretz Yisroel, one called; Elef
LaMateh, and the other; The Shmirah Project. Basically, their intent is to
match Israeli soldiers with Avreichim and bochurim learning. Each Avreich
and Bochur who volunteers, receives the name of a specific soldier (his name
and his mother's name) that he takes responsibility to daven for and learn
specially for so that in the merit of the tefillos and learning, that
soldier will merit to return home alive and well. (Is this a good idea)

A. HaRav Shlomo Miller Shlit'a opinion is that it is a great mitzvah to
pray, learn Torah and accomplish mitzvos for the benefit of all our brethren
B'nay Yisroel in times of peril and need, especially for those who put their
life in harm's way to save and protect others.





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Me: ...most of us also live in an "outside world" that is highly
egalitarian...And I don't think it is wrong for those changes in the
experiences of women and couples and families and communities to affect
religious practice, to move us in a somewhat more egalitarian direction
WITHIN what is halachically permitted.

RJR: Would it be correct to say that the general case of this argument is
that as long as it can be argued that something is halachically permitted
(which many seem to define  as not totally halachically forbidden by r?mb?s
black letter law), then we can accept it without asking whether HKB?H
prefers it?

Me: No!!! But does HKB"H really prefer that psak and practice should be
identical for each community and each generation?

- Ilana
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.
I expect that this thread will have little or nothing to do with the
halachic questions we discussed recently. I am asking questions that I
think are based on purely financial and economic considerations:

Why was is so important for Naomi to find a goel/redeemer for
Elimelech's land? Why didn't she just move back there and start
farming?

I suppose it was pretty desolate after a ten-year famine, but did she
even try? She must have at least gone there to see the place, if for
no other reason than to be sure that no squatters took over while she
was gone. Without making sure of such things, how could she even hope
that anyone (even a goel) would buy it?

Maybe she expected to get a better profit from Boaz than she'd get
from farming it herself, but maybe there are other answers?

Akiva Miller

Many times she is called simply "Ruth", and many times she is
described as "Ruth Hamoaviah". Is there any reason or pattern to the
distinction?

When I first thought of this question, I thought that perhaps the
description was dropped after her geirus, but the megillah goes back
and forth all the way through. Surely someone must have commented on
this.

Akiva Miller

Not sure how this solves the difficulty, the people who do this are still
being machshiv some pesukim over others.

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 1:17 PM, Zev Sero via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>
>
> Everywhere I've been, the baal korei stops and people stand up one pasuk
> *before* the 10 dibros and the shira, specifically for this reason.
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On 02/06/17 05:14, ADE wrote:
> On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 1:17 PM, Zev Sero wrote:

>> Everywhere I've been, the baal korei stops and people stand up one 
>> pasuk *before* the 10 dibros and the shira, specifically for this 
>> reason.

 > Not sure how this solves the difficulty, the people who do this are
 > still being machshiv some pesukim over others.

There is no requirement to treat all pesukim exactly the same.  One is 
entitled to stand or sit during KhT as one wishes, and has no obligation 
to choose one policy and stick to it.  The problem is only with standing 
up for special pesukim, such as Shma or the 10D.  Since there's nothing 
special about the pasuk before the 10D, there's no problem with deciding 
to stand for it.  And when the special pesukim come along one is already 
standing, so one has no obligation to sit down.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

In our personal religious commitments there are those among 
us scrupulous in performance of the ceremonial mitzvot but at
the same time displaying reckless disregard of our elementary
duties towards our fellowman. Halacha embraces human life
in its totality. One of the great Lithuanian mussar sages made 
a fascinating remark that it is much easier to complete the study
of the entire Babylonian Talmud than to extricate a single anti-social
trait from our behavior!

A quitter never wins, and a winner never quits.
Anonymous
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On Thu, Jun 01, 2017 at 09:46:10PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
:                  One of the great Lithuanian mussar sages made 
: a fascinating remark that it is much easier to complete the study
: of the entire Babylonian Talmud than to extricate a single anti-social
: trait from our behavior!

Rabbi Yisrael Salanter, among the aphorisms of his listed in R' Dov
Katz's Tenu'as haMussar vol I.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

On 01/06/17 23:05, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Many times she is called simply "Ruth", and many times she is
> described as "Ruth Hamoaviah". Is there any reason or pattern to the
> distinction?
> 
> When I first thought of this question, I thought that perhaps the
> description was dropped after her geirus, but the megillah goes back
> and forth all the way through. Surely someone must have commented on
> this.

I only see four instances of "Ruth Hamoaviah", three in ch 2, and only 
one in ch 4, in Boaz's description of the situation to Tov.  Since his 
purpose was to scare him off, it made sense to mention her origin, so 
Tov would be reluctant to risk his future.


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On 6/2/2017 6:05 AM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Many times she is called simply "Ruth", and many times she is
> described as "Ruth Hamoaviah". Is there any reason or pattern to the
> distinction?
>
> When I first thought of this question, I thought that perhaps the
> description was dropped after her geirus, but the megillah goes back
> and forth all the way through. Surely someone must have commented on
> this.
I can't cite a source for it, but I remember once reading that Ruth 
HaMoaviah was intended to praise her, since she gave up her position in 
Moav to join us.

Lisa

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Actually if the land had lied fallow for 10 years, it should be in good 
shape. Granted it needs weeding but the soil should be good. It only 
requires a relatively small amount of rain for grass to grow and 
re-invigorate the soil.

Maybe she was too old to work the land and figured that a sale would 
provide her with enough money to live out the rest of her days in dignity?

Ben

On 6/2/2017 5:01 AM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Why was is so important for Naomi to find a goel/redeemer for
> Elimelech's land? Why didn't she just move back there and start
> farming?

On 01/06/17 23:01, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:

> Why was is so important for Naomi to find a goel/redeemer for
> Elimelech's land? Why didn't she just move back there and start
> farming?
It seems to me that finding a buyer for the property was not at all 
important to her, and in fact she had shown no interest in doing so 
until she saw how she could use it to get Boaz to marry Ruth.   It was 
Boaz who spun the story out for Tov in order to scare him off; first he 
drew him in with the prospect of an easy transaction for Naomi's portion 
of the field, but then he threw in the Ruth monkey wrench.


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all


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