Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 164

Tue, 27 Dec 2016

• 1. Correction to V'Achar Kayn or V'Achar Kach (Professor L. Levine)
• 2. Re: electronics on shabbat (Marty Bluke)
• 3. Re: Correction to V'Achar Kayn or V'Achar Kach (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: Correction to V'Achar Kayn or V'Achar Kach (Micha Berger)
• 5. God's Will in Syria (Ben Waxman)
• 6. RSRH's Essay Chanoch L'na'ar Al Pi Darko (Professor L. Levine)
• 7. Re: Correction to V'Achar Kayn or V'Achar Kach (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: God's Will in Syria (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Re: God's Will in Syria (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: rainbow ()
• 11. Re: Correction to V'Achar Kayn or V'Achar Kach (Prof. Levine)
• 12. Re: Correction to V'Achar Kayn or V'Achar Kach (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: rainbow (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: rainbow ()
• 15. Achsenai (Akiva Miller)

What I sent out before was not correct.  It should have read


Different sidurim have either  V'Achar Kayn or V'Achar Kach in Al Ha'Nissim.


The Artscroll siddur has V'Achar Kayn.  Also,  both the Roedelheim Siddur and Seligman Baer's Siddur, both considered to be authoritative,  have V'Achar Kayn.


YL
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R' Akiva Miller wrote:
"My understanding is that halachic fire is defined by either heat OR light.
"

I don't believe that is correct. There is no prohibition to create a light
on Shabbat, the prohibition is to create a fire or heat metal until it
glows. It just so happens that until recent times there was no way to
create light without heat (e.g. incandescent bulbs).
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On 27/12/16 08:52, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> What I sent out before was not correct.  It should have read
>
>> Different sidurim have either  V'Achar Kayn or V'Achar Kach in Al
>> Ha'Nissim.

> The Artscroll siddur has V'Achar Kayn.  Also,  both the Roedelheim
> Siddur and Seligman Baer's Siddur, both considered to be authoritative,
> have V'Achar Kayn.

R Shabsi Sofer's siddur, which *is* considered authoritative, says that 
all the siddurim have "kach", and so it is also in Abudarhem, however 
his own opinion is that it would be better to say "kein", because that 
is leshon mikra.  That's presumably why Roedelheim and Baer, who 
preferred leshon mikra throughout their siddurim, amended this too.

However although in general "all brachos and prayers use leshon mikra as 
much as possible" (SAhR 67:5, cf Brachos 38b Tosfos d"h  Vehilchesa), if 
this particular prayer were intended to be in leshon mikra it would say 
"yemei chanukah *eileh*", not "eilu".  "Eilu" is leshon chachamim, and 
its use would seem to indicate that this prayer was composed in that 
dialect.

(from R LY Raskin's notes on the AR's siddur)

-- 
Zev Sero                Have a brilliant Chanukah
z...@sero.name

On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 01:52:01PM +0000, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: The Artscroll siddur has V'Achar Kayn.  Also,  both the Roedelheim Siddur
: and Seligman Baer's Siddur, both considered to be authoritative,  have
: V'Achar Kayn.

However, both Roedelheim and R' Baer are authoritative sources of German
nusach. There is no reason to assume East European traditional nusach
was necessarily identical.

Sepharadim have "ve'achar kakh", as do Chassidim (including Chabad's
"Nusach Ari") and the Gra.

However, the original appears to be "achar kein" -- as per Seder R'
Amaram Gaon, Machzor Vitri, and the Avudraham.

To my mind, this is the usual machloqes about praying in Tanakhi vs
Mishnaic Hebrew, and less linked to which was original.

Shemu'el I 10:5 "achar kein"

Mishnah Berakhos 2:2, Pesachim 10:2, etc... use "achar kakh".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The greatest discovery of all time is that
mi...@aishdas.org        a person can change their future
http://www.aishdas.org   by merely changing their attitude.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Oprah Winfrey

[Originally posted on Areivim. -micha]

From an interview with Shivi Froman in Olam Katan (in reference to his
fundraiser for Syrians) (my translation):

    Q: You don't think that it is God's will (Hand of God) that our
    enemies are killing each other instead of uniting against us?

    A: No, I don't have those types of thoughts about God, he
    protests. The only thing that I thought was that God commanded to
    live as if the world was created for me. If I feel that something is
    lacking or there is pain in this world, then I am lacking something
    and the pain is mine. If I can imagine something that God is telling
    me about Syria, it is this: "I created for you a black hole, pain,
    incredible evil in this world. Go and do something about it." I can't
    imagine that God allows me to watch people created in His image doing
    these things to one another and telling "enjoy the show". That isn't
    my God.

See

https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/chanoch_l_naar_al_pi_darco
.pdf


YL
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On 27/12/16 10:50, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> However, the original appears to be "achar kein" -- as per Seder R'
> Amaram Gaon, Machzor Vitri, and the Avudraham.

Both Machzor Vitri and the Avudraham have "kach", not "kein".

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=33694&;pgnum=263
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=44589&;pgnum=146

-- 
Zev Sero                Have a brilliant Chanukah
z...@sero.name

    Q: You don't think that it is God's will (Hand of God) that our
    enemies are killing each other instead of uniting against us?

    A: No, I don't have those types of thoughts about God, he
    protests. ........" I can't
    imagine that God allows me to watch people created in His image doing
    these things to one another and telling "enjoy the show". That isn't
    my God.
_______________________________________________
I can't imagine either side being so sure they know the mind of HKB"H. Of
course one has to make their best guess in the context of all the other
demands one one's resources.
KT
Joel Rich
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On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 06:30:30PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
:>                         I can't
:>     imagine that God allows me to watch people created in His image doing
:>     these things to one another and telling "enjoy the show". That isn't
:>     my God.

: I can't imagine either side being so sure they know the mind of
: HKB"H. Of course one has to make their best guess in the context of all
: the other demands one one's resources.

We can do better than guessing... We have Torah to work with to actually
theorize. Especially since we're not just talking about what Hashem is
thinking, but what He is thinking about how we should be feeling.

I reposted RBW's email here with the hope that people would be motivated
to bring sources on the subject.

And with hopes this doesn't just repeat the binfol oyivkha discussion
of 2011. To know the directions I am hoping to avoid repeating, see
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=B#BINFOL%20OYIVCHA
>
and following topics, and
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=D#DROPS%20OF%20WINE
among other threads, along with my conclusions after that discussion
at http://www.aishdas.org/asp/compassion-for-our-enemies

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and
mi...@aishdas.org        this was a great wonder. But it is much more
http://www.aishdas.org   wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "mensch"!     -Rav Yisrael Salanter

 

From: saul newman via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

1.  you see a rainbow in the sky  after the rain . you believe:

a. the RBSO was going  to at this moment destroy the world, but then
the rainbow reminded Him not  to

b. the RBSO set up the rainbow of a reminder of  the time of the Flood
and His promise not to repeat it

c. the RBSO set up a physical principal [NOTE: should be principle]  that 
light bent at a certain
angle by dispersed water produces a  rainbow


2.  while making the bracha  'zocher habrit' , one  is thinking

a, b, c   as  above


[snip]
2]  if one includes 'c' as part or all of his answer to
number 2,   does that detract from his yiddishkeit or make him  
non-normative?

 
 
>>>>>
 
The short answer to your question #2 is that no thought you might have as  
you recite the bracha is "non-normative."  You can think whatever you  want.
 
Here in Florida we see rainbows almost every day in the summer for two  
reasons:
1. There are sunshowers almost every day.
2. There is a complete lack of tznius and there is a lot of immoral  
behavior going on. 
 
Those two reasons are not mutually exclusive.  A person can get sick  
because he has been exposed to a contagious disease AND because he has  sinned.  
These are different categories of explanation, but not mutually  exclusive.  
 
Personally I think that rainbows are beautiful, and I think there are no  
accidents.  If Hashem made them beautiful then He meant for us to  appreciate 
their beauty and to have beautiful thoughts when we see them.   My own 
thought when I make the bracha "zocher habris" is gratitude for the  beauty that 
Hashem put into His world, and also gratitude that He has promised  not to 
destroy His world, no matter how many battles we conservatives lose  in the 
Culture Wars.
 

--Toby  Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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At 12:07 PM 12/27/2016, Zev Sero wrote:
>On 27/12/16 10:50, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> > However, the original appears to be "achar kein" -- as per Seder R'
> > Amaram Gaon, Machzor Vitri, and the Avudraham.
>
>Both Machzor Vitri and the Avudraham have "kach", not "kein".
>
>http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=33694&;pgnum=263
>http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=44589&;pgnum=146
>
>--


However,  the siddur of Rav Amram Gaon has kein.  This is older than 
both of the above, is it not?.

YL
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On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 03:36:45PM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: However,  the siddur of Rav Amram Gaon has kein.  This is older than
: both of the above, is it not?.

Yes and no. Yes for the text itself, not necessarily for the words we're
looking at.

There are no really good manuscripts. They differ widely from each other
and sometimes from what Seifer haManhig or the Avudraham say R' Amram
held. And the older, Sepharadi versions of the text often are adulterated
with the scribe's native nusach. Whereas we know that Ashkenaz accepted
more of the SRAG when trying to standardize its nusach.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Education is not the filling of a bucket,
mi...@aishdas.org        but the lighting of a fire.
http://www.aishdas.org                - W.B. Yeats
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 27/12/16 14:37, via Avodah wrote:
> Personally I think that rainbows are beautiful, and I think there are no
> accidents.  If Hashem made them beautiful then He meant for us to
> appreciate their beauty and to have beautiful thoughts when we see them.

Which makes one wonder why generations such as that of RShBY are 
deprived of them.

-- 
Zev Sero                Have a brilliant Chanukah
z...@sero.name

 

> Personally I think that rainbows are beautiful, and I think  there are no
> accidents.  If Hashem made them beautiful then He  meant for us to
> appreciate their beauty and to have beautiful thoughts  when we see 
them.[--TK]

Which makes one wonder why generations such as  that of RShBY are 
deprived of them.

-- 
Zev Sero     Have a brilliant  Chanukah
z...@sero.name

 
 
>>>>>
I wonder how Rambam would have answered that question.  I understand  that 
he considered rainbows to be natural phenomena.
 
One possible approach would be to say that for someone whose  appreciation 
of Hashem's greatness is on a very high level, seeing a rainbow  would be a 
spiritual yerida rather than an aliyah -- akin to breaking off from  your 
Torah learning to say "mah na'eh ilan zeh."
 
(Chazal seem to be saying that there was no rainbow in his life because his 
 generation was on such a high level, or he was on such a high level, that 
there  was no reason for Hashem to consider destroying the world, and 
therefore no  reason for Hashem to put in the sky the "reminder" of His promise 
not to destroy  the world.  But that's hard to understand too, because there 
were plenty of  sinners in RShBY's generation.)  
 

--Toby  Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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I have several questions about the halacha of an achsenai who accomplishes
his Ner Chanuka via a host. This post will be in three sections: First I
will describe a typical scenario where this is done. Then I will give
several questions about when one can use this procedure. Finally I have a
basic question about the pruta involved.

First, I would like to describe what I think is a fairly typical scenario
where one might use this. Let's say that I am planning on having dinner at
my home around candle lighting time, and I invited a guest. He really ought
to light his menorah at *his* home, because he *has* his own home and does
not live at my home. But it would be more convenient, for whatever reason,
for him to light at *my* home. So he gives me a pruta to purchase a share
of my oil, and then I can light while he stands with me listening to my
brachos, and he is totally yotzay. There is no need at all for him to light
again when he gets back to his own home. If I have made any mistakes in the
above, then let's discuss them and not go any further.

Now, when can we make use of this procedure? Does the guest have to
actually eat in my home? Does it have to be a meal of bread, or can a snack
suffice? Does he have to eat anything at all? Maybe it is enough that he
sits down as a guest and we shmooze for the half-hour duration of the
candles? Does he really have to stay in my home for the full half-hour at
all? Does he really have to even *be* in my house at all? For example, if I
meet him in the street, can he give me a pruta and be my guest in absentia?

Finally (and perhaps most importantly) I don't understand what the pruta
accomplishes. We are told that when the guest gives the pruta to the
homeowner, he acquires a share in the oil. Big deal! What does ownership of
the oil accomplish? He is a guest, not a resident, and he ought to be
lighting in his own home. And this building is *not* his home. If the pruta
is to accomplish anything, it ought to be paying for a share of the *home*.
If he becomes a renter or part-owner of the home, then it makes sense that
he can do his candle lighting here. But what does ownership of the oil
accomplish?

Akiva Miller
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