Volume 33: Number 105
Mon, 27 Jul 2015
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 10:58:50 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] B'Leil Zeh
At 10:50 AM 7/26/2015, Micha Berger wrote:
>Now that you made me think about the question, I would ask the reverse
>one. Bayis sheini was set aflame shortly before sheqi'ah on the 9th and
>burned through the 10th.
>
>So wouldn't beleil zeh only fit a postponed ta'anis?
>
>As for bayis rishon... I'm still sorting my way through understandings
>of Yechezqeil and the Yerushalmi.
Perhaps two separate tefillos are needed, one for the night of the
9th of Av and one for the night of the 10th of Av.
However, given the vast amount of kinos and other tefillos for Tisha
B'Av, I am loath to suggest adding any more.
YL
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Message: 2
From: via Avodah
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 19:32:45 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] why are we more lenient after chatzos on Tbav
From: M Cohen via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
There are several halachos that the minhag is to be more lenient after
chatzos on Tbav
Business, sitting on regular chairs, talis and tephillin etc
Why?
What changed in the afternoon?
Mordechai Cohen
>>>>
The mood of despair lightens in the afternoon because we are expecting the
imminent arrival of Moshiach. I have read somewhere that some people
(Sefardim maybe?) have a custom to sweep the floor and tidy up the house on
Tisha B'Av afternoon in anticipation of Moshiach's arrival.
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
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Message: 3
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 08:02:59 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] miryam bat batus
Thew gemara in Gittin tells the story of the rich lady miryam bat batus who
sent her sevant to buy food in the market, before the churban, each time
the food is already sold and she finally dies from dung on her foot.
OTOH the gemara in ketuvot says that miryam bat batus paid King Yanai a lot
of money to appoint her son yehoshua ben gamla as high priest
First the two stories are about 150 years apart. In addition Alexander
Jannai <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Jannaeus>was himself high
priest and unlikely to sell that position
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 4
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 03:18:25 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] De-Chokifying Arayos (including MZ)
R' Zvi Lampel wrote:
> But apparently, had Rav Lichtenstein been giving me the
> "chassan shmuez," I would have come away with the same halacha
> l'ma'aseh regarding attitude. He writes:
>
> We cannot, as the author of the /Iggeret ha-Kodesh/ could
> not, abandon the conviction that so central a component of
> human nature is not part of the /tov me'od/ of primordial
> creation. Consequently, impelled by our spiritual instincts
> and animated by the faith instilled in us by our Torah
> mentors, we opt for consecration rather than abstinence.
I am very bothered by this attitude. I will explain why.
We have discussed the idea that a posek may sometimes choose a psak based
on what "seems right" to him, and then he will find sources to support that
conclusion. But if I remember correctly, this is usually done in the case
of *new* questions, where there is little precedent to draw upon.
But that's not what's happening here. This is a case where the Shulchan
Aruch paskened very clearly in one direction, and this approach went
uncontested through centuries of acharonim. Then something changed. And it
changed so recently that Rav Lichtenstein couldn't name any seforim that
might have explained it to him. Namely, that for some reason, various
people (such as RZL's teacher) started paskening - "halacha l'ma'aseh" in
RZL's words - that the halacha follows the Iggeret ha-Kodesh (whose author
we aren't sure of) rather than the Shulchan Aruch and Rav Yosef Karo.
Why aren't we rejecting these revisionist poskim out of hand? Can we really
overturn the Shulchan Aruch simply because "We cannot ... abandon the
conviction" that sex is "tov me'od"? When we justify a psak and say we were
"impelled by our spiritual instincts", how are we different from
Conservative and Reform?
I would not speak this way if the topic was a machlokes rishonim. Can
someone please point to another major Rishon besides the Iggeret ha-Kodesh
who holds that way?
Akiva Miller
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Message: 5
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 03:49:50 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] miryam bat batus
On 07/27/2015 01:02 AM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> Thew gemara in Gittin tells the story of the rich lady miryam bat
> batus
Martha bat Baytus.
> who sent her sevant to buy food in the market, before the
> churban, each time the food is already sold and she finally dies from
> dung on her foot.
>
> OTOH the gemara in ketuvot
Yoma. 18a. And Yavamos 61a. I could not find any reference to
this in Kesubos.
> says that miryam bat batus
Martha bat Baytus.
> paid King Yanai a lot of money to appoint her son
Husband
> yehoshua ben gamla as high priest. First the two stories are about
> 150 years apart.
No, they're not. Yehoshua ben Gamla was the Cohen Gadol at the time
of the revolt against Rome, and was murdered by the Biryonim.
> In addition Alexander Jannai was himself high priest
> and unlikely to sell that position
Therefore this Yannai Malka was not that Alexander Yannai. As Tosfos
in both places points out, for precisely that reason.
--
Zev Sero I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
I have a right to kill him without asking questions
-- John Adams
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Message: 6
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 08:31:17 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] why are we more lenient after chatzos on Tbav
There are several halachos that the minhag is to be more lenient after
chatzos on Tbav
Business, sitting on regular chairs, talis and tephillin etc
Why?
What changed in the afternoon?
Mordechai Cohen
>>>>
The mood of despair lightens in the afternoon because we are expecting the
imminent arrival of Moshiach. I have read somewhere that some people
(Sefardim maybe?) have a custom to sweep the floor and tidy up the house on
Tisha B'Av afternoon in anticipation of Moshiach's arrival.
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com<mailto:t6...@aol.com>
..
=============
R'YBS explained that once the mikdash started burning (PM of TB) we knew hkb"h was taking out his wrath on stones and wood, not us.
KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 06:22:47 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] why are we more lenient after chatzos on Tbav
RnTK wrote:
: The mood of despair lightens in the afternoon because we are expecting
: the imminent arrival of Moshiach. I have read somewhere that some people
: (Sefardim maybe?) have a custom to sweep the floor and tidy up the house
: on Tisha B'Av afternoon in anticipation of Moshiach's arrival.
R' Yirmiyohu Kaganoff provided sources at
<http://www.yeshiva.co/midrash/shiur.asp?id=6869>:
In some places there is a custom to wash the floors and clean the
house on the afternoon of Tisha B'Av. This custom is based on a
mesorah that Moshiach will be born on Tisha B'Av afternoon and
that it is therefore appropriate to commemorate the redemption and
strengthen people's hopes and prayers (based on Beis Yosef 554 and
Kolbo). Although this seems like unnecessary work on Tisha B'Av that
should be postponed, the poskim rule that one should not discourage
those who follow this custom (Birkei Yosef 559:7).
On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 12:31am +0000, R Joel Rich replied:
: R'YBS explained that once the mikdash started burning (PM of TB)
: we knew [HKB"H] was taking out his wrath on stones and wood, not us.
I bet RYBS cited the Gra (OC 555:1).
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
PS: Actually, Google gets most of the credit for filling in vague memories
with mar'eh meqomos.
--
Micha Berger A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
mi...@aishdas.org man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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Message: 8
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 12:00:41 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] De-Chokifying Arayos (including MZ)
I asked:
> I would not speak this way if the topic was a machlokes
> rishonim. Can someone please point to another major Rishon
> besides the Iggeret ha-Kodesh who holds that way?
Alternatively, can anyone cite other halachos, where for centuries the
acharonim followed the Shulchan Aruch, and then in recent decades, the
poskim decided to follow a minority rishon?
My first instinct is to say that the shitos of the Gra are in this
category, but there were those who followed the Gra ever since his day, and
the only real change is that his views became more and more widespread. Was
there ever a community that was known for following the Iggeret ha-Kodesh
in this inyan until recently?
Akiva Miller
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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 10:10:59 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Sources for Not Covering Hair?
On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 11:15:51AM -1000, R/ Dr Noam Stadlan wrote
on Areivim:
: ... I would hope that the practice of these women, including the
: wife of R. Yosef Dov Soloveitchik would be respected, and not regarded
: as ignorance...
To do that woud be to disagree with her husband.
See "Thinking Aloud", pg 113:
DH: What is the heter for a married woman in her house not to cover
her hair when there are outsiders present?
RYBS: She has to cover her hair.
Another exchange:
DH: Someone was asking about a woman wearing a kisui rosh in the
house.
RYBS: We pasken you should.
DH: Someone showed me a gemara in Kesubos that b'toch chatzeira it
should be mutar, since otherwise there is no way any woman could
remain tachas ba'alah (72b). Offhand it occurred to me that if it was
lo shechichei inshei - just for going around the house when no one's
around, and someone just may drop in - then it would be mutar. But
if you have people coming over b'kevius, then why would it be any
different than going aroung in the street? Is there a special din
in the bayis that there's no din of covering your head anymore?
DH: Is this kisui ervah like most kisui ervah?
RYBS: Of course.
DH: What should I do for myself, for my wife?
RYBS: You will find out.
There are other such quotes that make it clear that RYBS disagreed with
his wife's practice, but either didn't fight the issue or didn't win.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger If you won't be better tomorrow
mi...@aishdas.org than you were today,
http://www.aishdas.org then what need do you have for tomorrow?
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov
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Message: 10
From: Saul Guberman
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 11:15:53 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Mesora only through Rashi
RGS makes the claim that we would not have TSP & our Mesora without Rashi &
the Tosafists.
http://www.torahmusings.com/2015/07/who-was-greater-than-rambam/
Our *Torah shebe?al peh* is based on Rashi and the Tosafists. If Jewish
history had not included Maimonides, the Jewish world would have missed a
great deal. Maimonides enriched our thinking and world view tremendously,
but the *Torah shebe?al peh* would have survived without him. However,
without Rashi and the Tosafists, there would not have been any *mesora*,
any chain of tradition; we could not teach *Torah shebe?al peh* today.
I just heard a piece yesterday by Rabbi Weill, from a few years back on
Kinnot and the destruction of Ashkenaz and burning of the gemorahs in
Paris. It was very devastating for the area. Jews lived in other areas as
well, thank God. So the Mesora continued with them.
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