Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 143

Wed, 15 Oct 2014

• 1. Re: (Not) to Eat Meat on Rosh Hashana (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: shemen zayit in suka (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Blowing The Shofar At The End Of Tefillath N`ilah (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Ele ezkara (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Tur-sukkot (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: ele ezkerah (Avi Goldstein)
• 7. ani vahu or ani vaho (Avi Goldstein)
• 8. Re: re'ach (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Demons in the Talmud (David Riceman)
• 10. chapters in the Bible (Eli Turkel)
• 11. Re: (Not) to Eat Meat on Rosh Hashana (Prof. Levine)
• 12. Insights Into Halacha: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? (Prof. Levine)
• 13. Re: Demons in the Talmud (Zev Sero)
• 14. Hoshana Rabba (Rich, Joel)
• 15. Re: re'ach (Zev Sero)

On Thu, Oct 02, 2014 at 05:13:55PM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
:> More along their lines.... Maran Bet Yosef's maggid was the embodiment of
:> the Mishnah. The spiritual manifestation of his own encounter with a book.
:> That's not entirely "bashamayim". I am picturing this is the same point as
:> the CZ's, but in very different wording.

: I really have no idea what you are saying.  What does it mean to be
: "the embodiment of the Mishnah"?  Please elaborate.

Al pi qabbalah everything in this world is the end of a "beam of Light"
that begins with the Borei. This light begins with his Oneness, but as
it filters down various olamos, it becomes differentiated.

(As I mentioned in the past, there is an idea in the Yad, Yesodei haTorah
pereq 2, which is very similar. It's not exclusively Qabbalistic.)

For example: every person has a yeitzer hara. And yet there is a mal'akh,
the satan, charged with the same job. The satan is a reification of the
individual yitzrei hara as a single concept, and since it's a job in
creation, there is a mal'akh tasked with that job. Or more accurately,
the job being done is itself the mal'akh. (Again, also in the Rambam,
this time the Moreh.)

The Mishnah exists in numerous editions and in a few variants in print
and in memories here in this world. Thus, there is a concept of Mishnah
that they all represent. (Some readers might realize around now why this
idea is called Neo-Platonic.) That concept thus has/is a mal'akh. Just as
the concept of healing has/is a mal'akh -- Refa'el. The flow of healing
from the Borei to the beru'im is a reality, and thus we can identify it
with a name and the will it embodies.

A person who is fully immersed in the mishnah can thus converse with the
Will embodied in the mishnah. Because he knows enough of it for it to
speak to him with answers that are different than those who would come
from his own mind and opinion.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The trick is learning to be passionate in one's
mi...@aishdas.org        ideals, but compassionate to one's peers.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Oct 05, 2014 at 08:41:21PM -0700, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
: http://ladaat.info/showgil.aspx?par=20141009&;gil=654
: see page one  for the suka-chanuka connection

I heard R' Aharon Soloveitchik talk about Sukkos and Chanukah and "ger vetoshav".

Chanukah's connection to Sukkos is in Sefer haMakabiim -- on the first Chanukah,
everyone who was frustrated about missing aliyah laregel the prior Sukkos came
on Chanukah with their 4 minim. And this is why, RAS suggested, Beis Shammai
thought that the decressing number of cows in each day's qorban mussaf on
Sukkos should be precedent for decreasing the number of Chanukah lights each
day.

And Chanukah is the completion of the sanctification of the land for Bayis
Sheini and "qudeshah lesha'atah vequdeshah le'asid lavo". Because the
acquisition of Bayis Sheini was through yishuv ha'aretz, unlike Yehoshua
who sanctified it through kibbush. Thus, leisheiv basukkah is part of
the concept of Chanukah, and its reconsecration of Sukkas David hanofales.
The chazaqah of the ger vetoshav.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             People were created to be loved.
mi...@aishdas.org        Things were created to be used.
http://www.aishdas.org   The reason why the world is in chaos is that
Fax: (270) 514-1507      things are being loved, people are being used.

On Wed, Oct 08, 2014 at 11:43:53AM -0300, via Avodah wrote:
: > And I would give a similar answer when talking about muqtza or even
: > the actual blowing of the shofar at the end of ne'ilah.  Even
: > without being definitely after tzeis, I believe it would be mutar
: > because it's a derabbanan bein hashemashos (safeiq derabbanan added
: > to) letzorekh mitzvah.
: 
: What mitzvah? ...

This wouldn't be the only place where following minhag would be deemed
letzorekh mitzvah. For that matter, shevus letzorekh mitzvah is only
on part of a general category of loopholes -- hefsed meruba (and "meruba"
here is looser than usual) is also on the list.

I think you're over-analyzing the words of an idiom.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 02:02:17PM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: You can ask an even stronger question: Suppose we know for a fact that
: the piyut was written specifically in order to teach Halacha L'Maaseh? How
: much halachic credence do we give there?

: I would say that even in such a case, one must not blindly accept the
: psak of the payyetan...

Why would it be any different than any other writing of a baal mesorah
of the paytan's era? And perhaps more authoritative -- one must also
consider the hundreds or thousands of rabbanim over centuries accepted
a piyut that was designed to be halachic into their liturgy.

Still, I was talking about learning halakhah from narrative, and focusing
on the narrative aspect of Eileh Ezkerah. Thus my contrast with maaseh
rav. I wasn't really thinking about the nature of piyut and thus neither
about non-story-telling piyutimm.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Time flies...
mi...@aishdas.org                    ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org                       - R' Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 08:22:35PM -0400, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: One often hears the Tur on why sukkot is now and not Nissan. It seems to
: me it's often stated as now it's cold so no one would sit in the sukkah
: and so it's noticeable that we do. It struck me as strange since in
: Israel it's not particularly cold this time of year. The actual language
: of the Tur is not about cold but about rain...

Which is also rare enough this time of year for it to be considered
a siman. (It happens to be a siman kelalah, but that's not the detail
I'm focusing on.) If it weren't a long shot, reading too much into the
presence of rain wouldn't be consistent with living with hesteir Panim.

:                Lulai dmistifina I would have simply understood the Tur
: as saying it's a mindset thing - as the rainy season approaches people
: tend to move inside in anticipation, whether the rain has come or not...

FWIW, I don't know why there is a reason to be reluctant to understand
the Tur (OC 625) this way. He talks about what's nikeres, and therefore
we make a sukkah at a time when "vederekh kol adam latzeis meisukaso".
I think the "mindset thing" idea is pashute pesht.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Weeds are flowers too
mi...@aishdas.org        once you get to know them.
http://www.aishdas.org          - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne)
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Eli Turkel wrote:
"In the piyut r ishmael cohen gadol held the head of rabban shimon be
gamliel
Doesnt that make him tameh which is forbidden."

I once went to a shiur regarding pikuach nefesh and Shabbat. I heard that
Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt'l, asked this question. He answered that by
taking R. Shimon ben Gamliel's head, R' Yishmael bought himself a few more
minutes of life. Chances are that in the interim R' Yishmael became a
subject of mockery among his persecutors, but, says R' Shlomo Zalman, this
demonstrates how precious life is.

-- 
Avi Goldstein
Five Towns Nissan
Cell: 516-526-1925
Fax: 516-371-0498
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I have for many years chafed at the sound of the tzibbur saying: "Ani vaho
hoshia na." I recall that when I was younger, before the appearance of a
certain siddur, many people said "ani vahu," with a shuruk, not a cholam.
Today, it seems that most people say vaho, with a cholam.
There are numerous proofs that the word is "vahu." This phrase comes from
the Mishnah in Sukkah 45a. In some editions of the mishnayos, the word is
actually written with an aleph at the end, a clear indication that the
vowel is a shuruk.
Further, the Ritva states that the vowel is a shuruk. The Aruch Hashulchan
writes that the word has a "meluphum,'' that is, a shuruk, and not a
cholam. The Torah Temimah on the words "Vatiftach vatirehu es hayeled"
clearly holds that the word is vahu (no surprise, he was the Aruch
Hashulchan's son).
The Tefillas Kol Peh siddur has a long piece in which the author "shreis
gevalt" at the cholam usage.
There are other proofs as well, and I would like to hear what others have
to say about this matter.
Avi Goldstein


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On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 09:38:14AM -0700, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
: in artscroll's  daled minim sefer [ hebrew notes]  , there is discussion on
: the topic of eucalyptus as aravot...     one objection was based on  the
: smell , that aravot are supposed to be re'ach  free.
: 
: in light of this , i wonder if anyone discusses the smell that aravot
: acquire as they blacken , if this smell might likewise be considered a
: psul....

You would make a borei minei besamim on eucalyptus leaves, but not on
rotting/oxidizing (tea-makers would call it "fermenting", but chemists and
biologists wouldn't) willow leaves of the sort we usually use for aravos.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

RMB:

<<

the Y-mi has less aggadita
altogether, and therefore while the dirth[dearth] of demons is odd

 >>

All of the collections of aggadta we have from amoraic times are from 
EY, so you'd have to poll them as well.  IIRC, however, Levi Ginsberg 
makes a similar point.

David Riceman

From an Israeli newspaper: The Xtian Bible (from Paris about 1250) is being
displayed in Jerusalem. It is currently the oldest Bible divided by
chapters rather than parshiot.

The Archbishop of Canterbury introduced the chapters in the early 1200s. It
was first used by the Jews by Rabbi Yitschak Natan in 1448. In 1516 was
published in Venice the first Jewish Bible using the division by chapters.
The article claims that the division into chapters was introduced into
Jewish works because of the various debates between the clergy and the Jews
where verses where refered to by their chapter

-- 
Eli Turkel
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At 03:36 PM 10/14/2014, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Thu, Oct 02, 2014 at 05:13:55PM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>: I really have no idea what you are saying.  What does it mean to be
>: "the embodiment of the Mishnah"?  Please elaborate.

> Al pi qabbalah everything in this world is the end of a "beam of Light"
> that begins with the Borei. This light begins with his Oneness, but as
> it filters down various olamos, it becomes differentiated.
...
>The Mishnah exists in numerous editions and in a few variants in print
>and in memories here in this world. Thus, there is a concept of Mishnah
>that they all represent. (Some readers might realize around now why this
>idea is called Neo-Platonic.) That concept thus has/is a mal'akh...

>A person who is fully immersed in the mishnah can thus converse with the
>Will embodied in the mishnah. Because he knows enough of it for it to
>speak to him with answers that are different than those who would come
>from his own mind and opinion.

The following is from an email that R. Nosson Kamenetsky sent me on 1/26/2005

On pages 845-846 [of the Making of a Godol] I quote "Hever Ma'amarim II"
(Brooklyn, 5729), p. 174 - this is a sepher of shmuessen of R' Yeruham
Levovitz (the name of the book and its contents are in Hebrew, a language
which my email server does not type) - that "R' [Shlomo] Elyashiv [author
of the Leshem Kabala series] once rode with the Salanter and mustered
the courage to ask him why he did not study Kabala. R' Yisrael replied,
'What difference does it make to me in which firmament G-d dwells? One
thing I know: that [a sinner] will be struck with fiery rods, and it
will be very painful. That the blows will be fiery, I know clearly -
and what else [should interest me]?'" The translation from the Hebrew
is my own. I do not have the Hever Ma'amarim handy to look up again, so
I hope you will be satisfied with the above. I do recall that this talk
of R' Yeruham centers on the imperative of a person moving gradually,
from the level on which he stands to the next and so onward, and not
trying to skip steps in his spiritual development. This is how R'
Levovitz understood R' Yisrael's words.

YL

As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of 
Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns. As with much related to the Yomim 
Tovim, differ

As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of 
Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns. As with much related to the Yomim 
Tovim, different minhagim come to the forefront this time of year. 
Not just the Sukkos-long variances as to the proper method of nanuim 
with the Lulav and Esrog, nor the correct order of the Ushpizin. 
Rather, this author is referring to sitting in the Sukka on Shmini 
Atzeres. Is it an obligation or recommendation? Prohibited or 
permitted? Why do some go to great lengths to make sure to eat or 
even sleep in the Sukka on this day, while others will make due with 
a simple Kiddush or even less?

To find out why, read the full article 
"<https://go.madmimi.com/redirects/1413266456
-b2776ff773b318c092aaad472709f0c2-75a0df6?pa=25632613172>Insights 
Into Halacha: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres?" For all of the Mareh Mekomos 
/ sources, just ask.

A vastly expanded version of this article with extensive footnotes 
appeared in last year's AMI Magazine Sukkos edition.

Wishing all of our readers a Good Yom Tov,
kol tuv,
Y. Spitz
Yerushalayim
<mailto:ysp...@ohr.edu>ysp...@ohr.edu


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> There is a well-known debate about how to understand talmudic references
> to demons. Some commentators took these gemarot at face value while the
> Rambam denied that demonic beings exist.

Where did he deny this?

As the sun rises on Hoshana Rabba, an annual question dawns (on me), when
in Jewish history can we document the "yom hadin" nature of Hoshana Rabba
being clearly identified ?
Pitcha tova and a good kvitel :)
Joel Rich

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On 14 October 2014 16:13, Micha Berger via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
wrote:
> You would make a borei minei besamim on eucalyptus leaves, but not on
> rotting/oxidizing (tea-makers would call it "fermenting", but chemists and
> biologists wouldn't) willow leaves of the sort we usually use for aravos.

I don't understand the premise.  The Torah says willows, not eucalyptuses.
All the simanim are for distinguishing willows from similar species, but no
siman is needed to distinguish them from such a dissimilar species that
nobody would mistake them for each other!

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name



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