Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 114

Tue, 29 Jul 2014

• 1. Re: hishtadlus ()
• 2. flat earth (Eli Turkel)
• 3. Watching Israeli TV When it is Shabbos in EY (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Re: Watching Israeli TV When it is Shabbos in EY (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: Watching Israeli TV When it is Shabbos in EY (Mandel, Seth)
• 6. flat earth (Eli Turkel)
• 7. Re: hishtadlus (Kenneth Miller)
• 8. Re: Watching Israeli TV When it is Shabbos in EY (Kenneth Miller)
• 9. Re: Watching Israeli TV When it is Shabbos in EY (Ben Waxman)
• 10. Re: hishtadlus (Rich, Joel)
• 11. Re: Watching Israeli TV When it is Shabbos in EY (Zev Sero)
• 12. obadiah 1:17 (saul newman)
• 13. Re: hishtadlus (Micha Berger)

 

From: saul newman via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

http://jewishworker.blogspot.co.il/2014/07/the-role-of-human-initi
ative-and-
action.html

is  an army/iron dome  doing anything, or is it all Hashem?
why did Hashem  require an army to conquer Canaan ?




>>>>
 
This is just a subset of the question, why did Hashem make the world the  
way He did?  Why did he make a world in which people have to work so hard  to 
obtain their daily bread?  Why didn't He just leave us sitting  peacefully 
in the Garden of Eden, and have all our needs met the way the Bnai  Yisrael 
had their needs met in the desert -- eat mon, or fresh fruits dropping  off 
trees, drink water, sit around all day contemplating Hashem and His wondrous 
 ways?
 
Why did He set up the world in such a way that human hishtadlus is  
necessary in order to obtain what we need?
 
The question almost answers itself.
 
One must of course add that no human effort would accomplish anything  
without Hashem.  You could not move your little finger without Him.
 
Im Hashem lo yivneh bayis, shav amlu vonav vo
Im Hashem lo yishmar ir, shav shakad shomer.
 
May Hashem bless and protect all the members of Tzahal and all the people  
of Israel.
 
 

--Toby  Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


-------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20140725/18cb8203/attachment-0001.htm>

<<Well, to parallel my actual thesis, the Rosh had to have actively rejected
: it, rather than been ignorant. Which is what his words actually say.

: In any case, Pythagoras's theorem doesn't work in practice with real
: fields and human-drawn lines. Relying on it to plan a field is of limited
: value. (The difference between theory and practice is that in theory,
: there would be no difference.)

Also, realize my intent is more along the lines of_limud zekhus (reapplied
to math) than belief it's *necessarily* what the Rosh is saying. I am as
loathe to say a rishon rejected well-accepted ideas that are verifiable
as to say that chazal had supernal knowledge of the subject.  >>

Just to be clear the explanation is from the Rash (R Shimshon of Sens =
Tosafot Shatz)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_ben_Abraham_of_Sens in his commentary
on Kilyaim 5:5 which is printed in most gemarot afyer mesechet berachot
with other Mishnayot of Zeriam.

The Rash actually gives a mathematical proof for the Pythagoras theorem
when the two sides are equal, isosceles, and so the diagonal is sqrt(2)
larger. He assumes that sqrt(2) = 1.4 exactly but that is a minor concern.
He has a long mathematical discission and is obviously discussing abstract
ideas and not real fields. He then goes on to say that while the theorem is
true when the two sides are equal it is not true when they are not equal.
He proves this by considering a right triangle with sides 30x20. The
pythagoras theorem gives a diagonal of about 36 while he claims the Mishna
says it is about 32 and hence the theorem is obviously wrong !
BTW the difference here is large enough to be easily measured.

Later perushim on the Mishna indeed attack the Rash for not at least
measuring such a case to verify that the theroem is indeed correct.



-- 
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20140726/a44274ee/attachment-0001.htm>

The online TV station http://www.i24news.tv/en/tv/live#  broadcasts 
24/7 from Israel.  CNN and other stations broadcast interviews and 
reports from Israel when it is Shabbos in EY.  Is one allowed to 
watch these broadcasts from the US when it is not Shabbos in the US?

YL

On 25/07/2014 6:06 PM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> The online TV station http://www.i24news.tv/en/tv/l
> ive#  broadcasts 24/7 from Israel.  CNN and other stations
> broadcast interviews and reports from Israel when it is Shabbos in EY.
>  Is one allowed to watch these broadcasts from the US when it is not
> Shabbos in the US?

So long as the people working on the broadcast are not Jewish, why not?
Even if you were causing a machine in EY to do something, "ee atoh metzuveh
al shevisas keilim".  How much more so since you're not.  (Even if the workers
are Jewish, I'm not sure whether merely watching counts as benefiting from someone
else's chilul shabbos.  But if they're not, then I can't even think of a shayla.)

The workers and reporters at CNN etc. are probably not Jewish.  I would guess
that the ones at the Israeli station probably are, but maybe not  - does anyone
actually know?

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

Chazal made specific rules under the rubric of amira l?akum.  From there,
you see that even if a Gentile does work on Shabbos, one is not allowed to
benefit from it until after Shabbos.
But, if he did nothing that was forbidden to be done on Shabbos, what he does is normally OK.
And the same applies to a Jew: if he did nothing forbidden on Shabbos, even
if he prepared things (Shabbos clock, dying, fully cooking food) so that no
one would be involved in Chillul Shabbos, it is allowed.
The same is the rule here: if no Jew was mechallel Shabbosto prepare what
you are reading, the fact that it is now Shabbos for him does not make the
result of his activity before Shabbos forbidden for you to enjoy on
Shabbos.
However, if what you are reading was prepared on Shabbos by a Jew, there is a problem.'

And you can post this in my name if you wish.

Seth Mandel

________________________________________
From: Prof. Levine [llev...@stevens.edu]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 6:06 PM
To: avo...@aishdas.org
Subject: Watching Israeli TV When it is Shabbos in EY

The online TV station http://www.i24news.tv/en/tv/live#  broadcasts
24/7 from Israel.  CNN and other stations broadcast interviews and
reports from Israel when it is Shabbos in EY.  Is one allowed to
watch these broadcasts from the US when it is not Shabbos in the US?

YL

I think that Micha and I have said what we can. Rather than bore the chevra
I will give one final summary and let Micha (and others) respond and hope
that is the end of this issue.

<< As I said above, my claim was about
western science, not chazal. I am willing to explore whether Tosafos had
hashkafic reasons to reject western science, but I find it improbable
next to impossible that he was ignorant of an idea that was already
dominant in the surrounding society since Rebbe's day. ... Acharonim from
the counter-reformation or after doesn't prove what the norms were in R' Tam's
day >>

I agree that most of western society knew about some spherical earth.
However, it was not only the shvut Yaakov. I also brought the Rash who was
a talmid of a taqlmid of Rabbenu Tam and an important Baal Tosafot. He says
explicitly that when a mathematucal theorem disagrees with a Mishna (or his
pshat in the Mishna) we accept the Mishna over science.

<<That the sun went above the sky. Not necessarily that the world was
flat. But again, I'm arguing more against ignorance than his actual
position. I can not prove my belief that Rabbeinu Tam himself believed
in the Copernican universe, >>

I purposely didnt bring in Copenicus. He lived many years after RT and it
is clear that before him the elite did not believe that the sun circled the
earth. (in fact there are reports of gedolim in our generation who deny the
Copernium theory)

<<My own belief that it is most likely he held that Rebbe thought the
earth was under the shell of the sky, but not necessarily flat. Nor
that he himself rejected the Copernican universe.
Below Australia, according to Persian science, boiling up the water the
world floats on. Which would heat the waters of EY. >>

It seems to me that RT and some other rishoim believed the earth (ie where
people live) is flat.
This based on several gemarot that talk about the size of the earth and the
earth meeting the sky.
Above the earth is a hemisphere of the sky where the sun goes arounf at
night (one theory).
Below the earth is another hemisphere holding the waters that hold up the
earth. Hence, in total we have a sphere which explains the gemara in AZ.
However, this sphere conatins inside a flat (or circular) earth where
people live. RT could have known that many believed in a spherical earth.
However, he rejected that view as seen by his rejection of the simple pshat
that Rebbe gave in the science of the other nations. There is certainly
nothing in the gemara to justify rebbe's opinion. It is RT opinion that the
the accepted secular viewpoint was wrong in reality.

It is clear that many rishonim especially those living in Spain and the
Provence knew of a spherical earth and hence the need for a dateline

<<The gemara doesn't refer to 4 mil. RT translated the gemara into 4 mil.
The idea was floated that this translation involved shifting from Bavel
to N France, but if you recall, I do not know how that translation would
be even in the right ballpark.>>

Sorry I was lost by this remark. The whole commentary of RT started because
the Gemara in Pesachim 94a talks about a shekia at 4 mil while the gemara
in Shabbat 34b-35b talks about a shekia at 3/4 mil . RT answers by
inventing a long shekia that goes from physical sunset to 3/4 mil before
the 4 mil when it becomes bein hashemoshot  (ie 3 1/4 mil). Assume a mil=18
minutes
the 4 mil becomes 72 minutes. RT gives no hint as to where in the world
this holds. As I said assumeing the gemara is talking about EY or Bavel it
contradicts the real world and if it talks about much further north then
why would the gemara talk about such a place. Neither choice is reasonable.
It must be that RT did not account (for whatever reason you wish) for
differences in latitude on the length of the sunset. This would coincide
with the gemara that the entire inhabited world sits under one sun, ie the
world is flat,

Prof. Sternberg argues that this opinion of RT (followed by other rishonim)
was merely a discussion of a contradiction between 2 gemarot. It was never
meant as a practical halacha. Thus for example Ramban (who holds a variant
of RT) could not have lit candles 72 minutes after sunset when he was in EY
when it was pitch black. Furthermore there was no way to tell when 72
minutes passed as mechanical clocks did not exist. Hence, this was a
theoretical discussion until centuries laters when the Jews moved to
northern Europe and the sunset indeed became very long.

OTOH translating RT into degrees of the sun below the horizon gives the
strange conclusion that sunset never ends during the summer in such places
as London and Vilna. This in turn led to rather strange compromizes as to
how to interpret RT in practice for a spherical earth. OTOH this led to the
return to the shitah of the Geonim by Baal Hatanya, Gra and others.

As an aside my personal experience is that most communities in northern
Europe they follow some variant of RT whilke in the US many more
communities follow the Gra.

-- 
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20140727/aee00a49/attachment-0001.htm>

R"N Toby Katz prefaced her answer with:

> This is just a subset of the question, why did Hashem make the
> world the way He did?  Why did he make a world in which people
> have to work so hard to obtain their daily bread?  Why didn't He
> just leave us sitting peacefully in the Garden of Eden, and have
> all our needs met the way the Bnai Yisrael had their needs met in
> the desert -- eat mon, or fresh fruits dropping off trees, drink
> water, sit around all day contemplating Hashem and His wondrous
> ways?
>
> Why did He set up the world in such a way that human hishtadlus
> is necessary in order to obtain what we need?

Without disagreeing with any of RTK's response, I'd just like to add my own thoughts. 

Nothing worthwhile comes easily. 

In the rare case when someone does get something worthwhile easily, it
seems to me that in most cases he won't appreciate that gift properly, and
may not even realize he got it.

L'fum tzaara agra - As I see it, it's a law of nature,	no less than
gravity. If one wants to ask WHY Hashem chose to run the world this way, I
don't see the question as arrogant or heretical. But I do think it might be
futile; one might as well ask why He made the world such that one plus one
makes two.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
The #1 Worst Carb Ever?
Click to Learn #1 Carb that Kills Your Blood Sugar (Don't Eat This!)
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/53d513095530213096754st04vuc

R' Yitzchok Levine asked:

<<< The online TV station http://www.i24news.tv/en/tv/live#<
/a>  broadcasts 24/7 from Israel.  CNN and other stations broadcast
interviews and reports from Israel when it is Shabbos in EY.  Is one
allowed to watch these broadcasts from the US when it is not Shabbos in the
US? >>>

I encountered this very situation at 3 pm this past Erev Shabbos, listening to WCBS (NYC) radio, whose reporter was broadcasting live from Yerushalayim.

If one can presume that all the significant workers on the broadcast are
not Jewish, I'd think there's no problem, because the melacha they're doing
is not specifically for Jews. But if any of the significant workers are
Jewish, I can't imagine the heter.

note: I have no idea what "significant" means in this context, nor how to decide anything about their Jewishness.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it.
http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT2

There are all sorts of employees in Reshet Bet, Arutz 2, JPost, Ynet, 
etc. However the broadcasters and reporters are mainly Jewish.

Ben

On 7/27/2014 7:27 AM, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
>
>
> The workers and reporters at CNN etc. are probably not Jewish.  I 
> would guess
> that the ones at the Israeli station probably are, but maybe not - 
> does anyone
> actually know?
>

...
> In the rare case when someone does get something worthwhile easily,
> it seems to me that in most cases he won't appreciate that gift properly,
> and may not even realize he got it.

> L'fum tzaara agra - As I see it, it's a law of nature, no less than
> gravity. If one wants to ask WHY Hashem chose to run the world this way...

> Akiva Miller

I think it's called nahama dkisufa in kabbalistic terms-we're ashamed
to take what's unearned.

R'YBS understood the why question to be futile, I think it can be a
double edged sword. Some might gain comfort but others just question more,
I have no idea in what proportion.

May we hear bsorot tovot
Joel Rich

On 27/07/2014 2:30 PM, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> On 7/27/2014 7:27 AM, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:

>> The workers and reporters at CNN etc. are probably not Jewish.  I would guess
>> that the ones at the Israeli station probably are, but maybe not - does anyone
>> actually know?

> There are all sorts of employees in Reshet Bet, Arutz 2, JPost, Ynet,
> etc. However the broadcasters and reporters are mainly Jewish.

Yes, but the question wasn't about those.


-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

when the chafetz chayim [i believe] commented , on the brewing storm in
europe that the machaneh
hanishar yihieh lepleita --and referred to the above verse , was that a
promise that leolam vaed there would not be a further elimination of the
jews of the Holy Land for eternity---or did it mean a temporary respite,
for that immediate period?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20140729/68ba5fb3/attachment-0001.htm>

On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 08:30:14AM -0700, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
: is an army/iron dome  doing anything, or is it all Hashem?
: why did Hashem require an army to conquer Canaan ?
: why could that one get credit , but not today?

RnTK, RAM and RJR attacked one aspect of this question, why G-d created
a world that requires hishtadlus.

Lisa took it in a different direction when she wrote about hakol tzafui
vehareshus nesunah, that somehow bechirah and hashgachah work out,
and we can't really know how.

A less modern approach (ie it assumes less-than-total hashgachah peratis)
to the second issue is given by the Or haChaim, when he explains the
logic behind the brothers deciding to throw Yoseif into a pit rather
than kill him outright. There is value to minimizing the amoung of neis
required. It is possible for a person to earn the HP necessary to be
saved al derekh hateva, but the more unnatural the saving would have to
be, the less likely he is to merit it. And so the brothers thought that
Yoseif being killed by their sword might not prove his guilt, just that
he didn't earn a miracle. However, the brothers felt an innocent Yoseif
would definitely merit being saved from a pit of nsakes and scorpions,
and his death would only be if he were indeed guilty.

Perhaps the role of the Iron Dome is to reduce Israel's need
from being saved from the sword to being saved from the pit.

Or as the old story ends: "I sent you the rowboat, the Coast Guard
cutter and the helicopter, what more did you expect Me to do?"

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507


------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."


A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/acronyms.cgi
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)