Volume 32: Number 104
Thu, 10 Jul 2014
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: via Avodah
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2014 19:03:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Kaddish
In a message dated 7/8/2014 6:50:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
avo...@lists.aishdas.org writes:
My impression is that if a person has both of
> his/her parents living, then s/he does not say kaddish.
>>>>>>
I wonder what the learned chevra think about this: what about an adopted
child, born of Jewish parents, saying Kaddish for his adoptive parent[s] if
his biological parents are still alive? And further, what about aveilus
-- sitting shiva, keeping a month, keeping a year of aveilus? For his
adoptive parents? For his bio parents?
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============
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Message: 2
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 09:28:21 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] Rachel Fraenkel saying kaddish over her son
<<There's something I'm obviously not understanding here. Is kaddish said
only when absolutely required, and only by those who are absolutely
required to say it?>>
I know of several people who lost children and have continued to say
kaddish "forever". I heard that RYBS said kaddish over
his wife way beyond 30 days. In our era where many people say kaddish
together in shul I don't see any problem.
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 3
From: Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 09:44:05 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] "Sexual Distraction School" of Kevod hatsibbur
In Avodah Digest, Vol 32, Issue 103, Rav Yehudah Herzl Henkin Shlit"a
critiques our presentation of the "Sexual Distraction School" of Kevod
ha-Tsibbur. See: "Women, Kri'at haTorah and Aliyyot" Aryeh A. Frimer
and Dov I. Frimer, Tradition, 46:4 (Winter, 2013), 67-238, online at http://www.rcar
abbis.org/pdf/frimer_article.pdf. See page 99 and note 238.
In particular, his acknowledges that there are indeed scores of leading
poskim - as we cite at length in note 238 - who maintain this view;
nevertheless, the sources cited are by in large Aharonim. In Rav
Henkin's words, "no rishon says this explicitly, while at least two say
the opposite: "Ishah lo tikra baTorah mishum kevod hatzibur, aval
pritzuta leika." (Sefer haMeorot to Berakhot 45a, and Rabbeinu Manoach
on the Rambam Hilkhot Berakhot 5:7) When achronim haven't seen the
rishonim, halachah is not like the achronim, and one certainly can't
ignore the rishonim."
Rav Henkin's position is indeed known to us and we cite it at the end
of note 238. However, we also demonstrate in note 238 that among the
rishonim, this "Sexual Distraction School" is supported by Behag
according to Tosafot, Sukka 38a, Sefer ha-Aguda, and most likely the
Semag. Among the Poskim we cite are many who lived in the modern
period and certainly had access to Sefer haMe'orot and Rabbeinu Manoach
- and yet ruled otherwise. It is true that the comments of the
Rishonim we cite were said in the context of Mikra Megilla or Kiddush.
But as we demonstrate, the principle of kevod ha-tsibbur is not limited
to keri'at haTorah. We believe that scores of leading Aharonim cannot
be simply waved off - particularly if they can support themselves with
views of other prominent Rishonim . As to Sefer haMe'orot and Rabbeinu
Manoach, they presumably align themselves with one of the other
schools in kevod ha-Tsibbur.
Aryeh and Dov Frimer
--------------------------------
Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer
Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University
Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL
E-mail (office): Aryeh.Fri...@biu.ac.il
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Message: 4
From: Rabbi Y. H. Henkin
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 16:25:44 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] Kevod hatzibur
Sefer haMeorot was first printed from ms. in 1964/5724; the achronim
didn't see it. Rabbeinu Manoach was printed in 5478 and 5639, but that
is no proof that achronim who dealt with women's aliyot were aware of
that sentence. If they were, they would have mentioned it one way or the
other. Weaker still is the attempt to demonstrate that Tosfot and Behag
etc. on Sukkah 38a have anything to do with the topic.
On the other hand, I have "demonstrated" that the Ritba and R. Avraham
Min haHar both hold an interpretation of kevod hatzibur as being
similar to meeirah for not having learned, see Bnei Banim 2:10-11 and
4:3. Ergo, they are another two rishonim --totaling four!--who don"t
subscribe to the sexual distraction theory.
I never said to ignore the achronim, just ascribe to them their proper place.
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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 10:58:54 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] said no...
On Wed, Jul 02, 2014 at 10:59:09PM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
:> We shouldn't be davening in order to get our requests met. Hashem
:> will do what is best for our souls and His world....
:> But even so, the main point of davening isn't to
:> get what you want.
...
: Actually, I'd go even further and suggest that asking for mish'alos
: libeinu is an important factor which must mot be discarded. A tefilah
: which consists of "I know that You'll do what is best for us, so please
: do it" is not a bakasha, I think. It is an excellent statement of emunah,
: and that's important too. But Chazal see real requests as an important
: part of tefilla.
I didn't deny the importance of baqashah. I suggested (a la Nefesh
haChaim cheleq 2, RSRH and RYBS) that the point of baqashos is not the
expectation of having them met. Rather, the sharing of the burden
itself, and the bond with Him it reinforces.
That's why I likened it to my unburdening my work problems on the
phone with my father.
If what HQBH wanted out of the encounter is our turning to him,
then tefillah would be sufficient to change the outcome. But if not?
And *that*, IMHO, is what we mean by "letovah".
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger The thought of happiness that comes from outside
mi...@aishdas.org the person, brings him sadness. But realizing
http://www.aishdas.org the value of one's will and the freedom brought
Fax: (270) 514-1507 by uplifting its, brings great joy. - R' Kook
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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 11:41:04 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Shabbat in Alaska
On Thu, Jul 03, 2014 at 02:36:28PM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: R' Zev Sero wrote:
...
:> RMF says that in the NE USA, with its lower latitude, the maximum
:> bein hashmoshos (leshitas hageonim) is not 72 min but closer to
:> 50, so that should be used.
: From what I've seen, he never wrote "maximum", and he never wrote
: "should". Rather, he held it to be a fixed and exact amount, both
: l'chumra and l'kula...
I don't see the "rather" here. It would seem to me that the IM says that
the 50 min (or 40 or 45, his estimates vary, as RAM wrote last millennium
CE) us a fixed amount *because* the time of bein hashemashos is between
sunset and the latest astronomical tzeis. Using a maximum implies a
fixed amount.
I wouldn't say "exact", given the aforemention range of estimates. It
seems RMF never had anyone actually do the experiment / calculations for
him.
So I thought I'd give it a try. Feel free (of course!) to correct any
math errors.
June 21, 2014 was the longest day of the year. (The solstice was at 6:51am
EDT.)
Troyes, where Rabbeinu Tam lived
alos: 4:01
sheqia: 9:44
span = 18:43
NYC
alos: 3:35
sheqia: 8:30
span = 16:55
NY's maximum day is 90% the length of Troyes's, so that 72 min would only
be scaled down to 65 min, well above the times RMF cited.
As a point of comparison, I decided to check the scale between geonic
lattitudes and Troyes.
Sura, Iraq, roughly where most ge'onim lived
alos: 3:08
sheqia: 7:13
span = 16:05
Meaning that Rabbeinu Tam's 72 min would correspond to 62 min in
ga'on speak. So, something's not quite right here: is it my math,
of the understanding of RMF's shitah?
Personally, I would think the concept of mil explicitly means that
one is NOT talking about a measure that varies with the day. (Which
still could be consistent with RAM's description of the IM.) After all,
we could be talking in terms of sha'ah zemanis, which would give us a
constant number of units that does vary the actual time by the season.
In general, I think there is a basic difference in how time is viewed
in sha'os, where we are speaking of units of natural process, and
when speakng of time in walking distances, where we are speaking of
units of human process.
I would fit in the same generality the cheileq vs tokh kedei dibur.
Both quanta of time, for that matter, might even be roughly the same.
But one is the time that man is subject to, and the other is the time
of human action.
If I ever complete this notion, I would blog on it.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger I always give much away,
mi...@aishdas.org and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
http://www.aishdas.org - Rachel Levin Varnhagen
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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Message: 7
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2014 15:51:53 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Kaddish
On 8/07/2014 7:03 PM, [Rn Toby Katz] wrote:
> I wonder what the learned chevra think about this: what about an
> adopted child, born of Jewish parents, saying Kaddish for his
> adoptive parent[s] if his biological parents are still alive? And
> further, what about aveilus -- sitting shiva, keeping a month,
> keeping a year of aveilus? For his adoptive parents? For his bio
> parents?
According to halacha, his biological parents are his only parents, and
he owes them kibud av va'em even if he hates them (the mitzvah is to
honour them, not to love them), while the people who raised him are not
his parents but merely very kind people to whom he owes an enormous debt
of gratitude (assuming that they were good to him). In the same way,
a ger's biological parents are not legally his parents, but if they
raised him and were good to him then he owes them a debt of gratitude.
Thus he has a chiyuv to say kaddish and sitting shiva for his biological
parents, if he knows that they have died. When his adoptive parents die
he has no *chiyuv* to do anything, and if they abused him and he hates
them he may ignore the death, but if, as is to be expected, he loves
them and is in mourning, I see no reason why he shouldn't sit shiva,
or say kaddish, unless his biological parents specifically forbid him.
I also don't see any reason why he should davka have to ask their
permission, or notify them of what he is doing, especially if he has no
relationship with them. If they care that much, let them notify him of
their objection. In the same way, I see no reason why a ger should
not sit shiva or say kaddish for his parents, if he feels a need to,
but it's his option. I know one ger who says kaddish for his mother but
not for his father, because that's the way he feels. He has, however,
been told by a rov not to say yizkor for her.
A similar issue is aveilus for ones rebbe. The definition of "ones rebbe"
depends on how one feels about him, so it's similar to adoptive parents.
The halacha requires sitting "shiva" for ones rebbe, but only for a
short time. AFAIK the minhag is for a talmid to say kaddish for his
rebbe for 11 months and on his yortzeit, but only if his parents are no
longer alive, or give permission.
Finally, a maaseh rav, but one that I never asked about so I don't
actually know the reasoning: My zeide had a sister who died young,
leaving two daughters, and another sister married the husband, who then
died, leaving her with the two girls. She never remarried, and never
had any biological children of her own, but raised her two nieces as
her own daughters. When she died, my zeide said kaddish for 11 months.
My *assumption* is that if the girls had been her biological daughters,
the two sons-in-law would have said kaddish, and my zeide would not.
But since they were only step-daughters, he was a closer relative than
the step-sons-in-law/nephews-in-law, so he said it. But I never asked
him, so I can only guess.
--
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name
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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 17:05:02 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Kaddish
On Wed, Jul 09, 2014 at 03:51:53PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: According to halacha, his biological parents are his only parents, and
: he owes them kibud av va'em...
If the child was born Jewish.
: ... while the people who raised him are not
: his parents but merely very kind people to whom he owes an enormous debt
: of gratitude...
...
: A similar issue is aveilus for ones rebbe. The definition of "ones rebbe"
: depends on how one feels about him, so it's similar to adoptive parents.
I think that because the child's parents qualify as rabbeim, it is far
more a case of aveilus for one's rebbe than merely similar to it, and
certainly not "merely" gratitude.
And if BD were megayerim the child because their stepping in as apitropin
to insure that the child's geirus is zakhin le'adam shelo befanav,
then the relationship is beyond that of rebbe. They are the people BY
appointed (so to speak) for this child.
I do not think a rebbe who qualifies as a rebbe muvhaq does not depend
on how one feels about the rebbe. See YD 242:30, and 340:8.
YD 340:8,17 say that qeri'ah is mandatory for a rebbe muvhaq. (Also
one's poseiq -- see 340:7, but that's not nidon didan.)
Today there are few rabbeim muvhaqim. See Chayei Adam #7, who explains
that's why he doesn't bother discussing those halakhos. But IMH -- and
biased (but also metzi'usly informed) - O, adoptive parents would qualify.
Agreed that the chiyuv is far less than shiv'ah. However, hareshus
beyado.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger When memories exceed dreams,
mi...@aishdas.org The end is near.
http://www.aishdas.org - Rav Moshe Sherer
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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Message: 9
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 22:32:35 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] driveless cars on shabbat
Could a Google vehicle be kosher for Shabbat?Driverless cars are comparable
to Shabbat elevators. Would Jewish law therefore permit using them on the
day of rest?
see
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/rabbis-round-table/.premium-1.604064
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 10
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 23:54:07 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] driveless cars on shabbat
R' Eli Turkel quoted an article from Haaretz:
> Could a Google vehicle be kosher for Shabbat?
> Driverless cars are comparable to Shabbat elevators.
> Would Jewish law therefore permit using them on the day of rest?
I see a big difference: An elevator follows a fixed route. Same for trains,
buses, and trolleys which I've heard are used by some under certain
conditions. But an auto is a very personal vehicle by its very nature. I'm
NOT saying that it would definitely be assur; I'm saying that we need more
information about how it would work and how it would be used, and maybe
then an answer might be proposed.
Akiva Miller
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Message: 11
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 19:40:45 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish phrasing
In the last two paragraphs of kaddish we say aleinu val kol yisrael. I
remember learning that once it's said as a complete phrase and the other
time with a comma after aleinu. Does anyone know the source (I thought it
was mishneh brurah but was unable to locate)
KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 12
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 11:53:42 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Rabbonim, Lakewood Poskim, sign letter in
On Wed, Jul 09, 2014 at 09:34:23AM -0400, M Cohen via Areivim wrote:
: Rabbonim, Lakewood Poskim, sign letter in response to practice of abusing
: promotional credit card offers.
: Signed by R Shlomo Miller, R Matisyahu Solomon, R Makiel Kotler, etc
:
: http://thepartialview.blogspot.ca/2014/07/rabbonim-l
: akewood-poskim-sign-letter-in.html
Or: http://j.mp/1q1KDH3
The topic is manufactured spending to get points which are then sold, or
to make money on a cash-back.
I think it would be interesting to discuss the connection to our earlier
discussion of taking advantage of erroneous airline fares. Such as driving
to Washington DC to pick up a $550 flight to Israel. (Even though there
would be a stop-off back in one's hometown. People have been billed the
corrected price if caught not using all legs of the ticket!)
I notice the language of issur veheter isn't used, although it is quite
firm:
Hayarei es devar H'
yasim libo
lehishameir ulehisracheiq
mimaasim sheka'eilu
...
ushe'eiris Yisrael hane'emanah [!]
vadai lo ya'seh avlah.
I would think we could also invoke the Semag (asei #74) tr and emphasis
mine, original Hebrew at
http://www.aishdas.org/asp/semag-why-were-still-in-galus :
I already expounded to the exiled from Jerusalem who are in Spain
and the other Roman exiles that now that the exile has gon on far too
long, it is appropriate for Israel to separate from the vanities of
the world and gram onto the signet of the Holy One, blessed be He,
which is truth, and not to lie neither to Jew nor to gentile. Not
to mislead them in any way. To sanctify themselves even in what
is permitted to them, as it says, "The remnant of Israel do not
commit sin, do not speak lies, and one wont find a false tongue in
their mouths." (Tzefaniah 3:13) And when Hashem comes to save them,
the nations will say, "It was done justly, for they are a people
of truth and the Torah of truth is in their mouths." But if they
act with the gentiles with trickery, they will say, "See what the
Holy One, blessed be He did, that chose for His portion thieves
and con-men." Also, it says, "I will plant her [the Jewish People]
for myself in the land..." (Hosheia 2:25) A person doesnt plant a
kur [of seed] but to produce numerous kurim. So too the Holy One,
blessed be He, planted Israel among the lands so that converts will
join them (Pesachim 87b) and every time that they conduct themselves
with trickery, who will attach to them?
It's a scary thought, that the ge'ulah can't come until we are known for
honesty, lest the other nations think Hashem doesn't care about integrity.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy.
mi...@aishdas.org I awoke and found that life was duty.
http://www.aishdas.org I worked and, behold -- duty is joy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rabindranath Tagore
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Message: 13
From: Michael Feldstein
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 10:33:07 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Chabad Beis Din in Australia, Organ Donation, and
http://www.hods.org/pdf/pre
ss/Australian%20Jewish%20News%20Opinion%20by%20Rabbi%20Moshe%20Gutnick%20-%
206-13-14.pdf
--
Michael Feldstein
Stamford, CT
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Message: 14
From: Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 19:21:12 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Chabad Beis Din in Australia, Organ Donation,
They sidestepped the issue.
How the Jahi McMath situation plays out may (or may not) prove to have
ramifications for this issue.
KT,
YGB
On 07/10/2014 10:33 AM, Michael Feldstein via Avodah wrote:
> http://www.hods.o
> rg/pdf/press/Australian%20Jewish%20News%20Opinion%20by%20Rabbi%20Moshe
> %20Gutnick%20-%206-13-14.pdf
>
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