Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 66

Sat, 19 Apr 2014

• 1. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Lisa Liel)
• 2. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: obsession with Kitniyot (Meir Shinnar)
• 4. the funny feelings about Kosher (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 5. : obsession with kitniyot (Chana Luntz)
• 6. Re: Humor or Serious? (Arie Folger)
• 7. Chumros Appropriate for Pesach (Prof. Levine)
• 8. Re: Yom Tov (Kenneth Miller)
• 9. Re: Chumros Appropriate for Pesach (Allan Engel)
• 10. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Kenneth Miller)
• 11. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Ben Waxman)
• 12. Re: Aliyyot to the Blind vs Aliyyot for women vs Aliyyot for minors (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: shiurim (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Aliyyot to the Blind vs Aliyyot for women vs Aliyyot for minors (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: Is there one halachic truth? (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: Aliyyot to the Blind vs Aliyyot for women vs Aliyyot for minors (Chana Luntz)

On 4/14/2014 6:21 AM, Kenneth Miller wrote:
> I too have been wondering why so many people seem to being attacking
> kitniyos as an unusually offensive minhag, I think R"n Lisa Liel for
> her clear explanation of a point of view that I was unaware of.
>
> Then she asked:
>
>> Can you think of anything else that deprives one group of Jews
>> of something that would make the chag much more enjoyable, while
>> their fellow Jews who could live across the street get to have
>> it? I can't. And you ask why we're obsessed with getting rid of
>> this burdensome and odious minhag?
> Gebrokts.
>
> Can anyone from the Chassidishe communities offer any anecdotal
> evidence about opposition to this minhag? From what I see, the
> non-gebroks products available at the store seems to be increasing
> each year. Is my matza brei among the factors leading to
> off-the-derech chassidshe kids? This is NOT a sarcasm, but a genuine
> question which can help us analyze RLL's claim.
I hear complaints all the time about the encroachment of non-gebrokts 
stuff in the stores, btw.  It's super annoying that it's so hard to find 
Pesach cakes that are mezonot.

We should be trying to maximize what we're allowed to eat; not minimize it.

Lisa

On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 01:42:02PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
: I hear complaints all the time about the encroachment of
: non-gebrokts stuff in the stores, btw.  It's super annoying that
: it's so hard to find Pesach cakes that are mezonot.

... which is not an issue of minhag as much as the hekhsheirim trying to
maximize audience. Now that there is an OU Kitniyos, perhaps we'll see
an OU gebrochts soon.

: We should be trying to maximize what we're allowed to eat; not minimize it.

In terms of oneg YT, yes.

But when we're talking about abrogating minhagim... It's one thing to
say a minhag should be minimized or eliminated because it's driving
people away from Torah. It's another to say that it's "super annoying"
so it has to go.

:-)|,|ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The worst thing that can happen to a
mi...@aishdas.org        person is to remain asleep and untamed."
http://www.aishdas.org          - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 1:04 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> I wouldn't dismiss minhag as "external trappings".
...
> My suggestion was, that the kids at risk who are bothered by minhagim
> have the wrong attitude toward nostalgia, belonging to a community,
> mimeticism, everythign that gives minhag religious power. And that the
> solution is not jetisoning minhagim we can't make sense of.
> We do that, mimeticism is gone, and core practices and values won't be
> far behind.

As someone who very much values minhag, my issue is not against minhag -
but focuses in the issue of using minhag as part of generating group
identity - a la yeshiva uniform u cited. Minhag is good as an addon
to identity- but using it to generate identity is dangerous today -
generating contempt of others.Kids at risk for otd don't have the group
identity solidified - they r making the choice. & they are harsh ( &
not necessarily learned or reasonable) critics - & some minhagim can
focus their critique.

I would add that group identity is dangerous in that it lets us excuse
problems within our group (whether child molestation or even more unit
issues (eg joking about shooting people...)?

Meir Shinnar
Sent from Mailbox for iPhone

quoting a post on Avodah

"If you, Mr. Goy, put pork in my fridge freezer etc. I will feel funny
using it afterwards for kosher food."

is this funny feeling something that Gd laughs about because it is silly?

Best,

Meir G. Rabi
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RMB writes:

>Then we're doing it wrong.

>Why do you think Lub makes such an issue over their large-bayis tefilin,
>having their own style of striping on their talisos, the menoros with
>straight arms (regardless of what the LR held WRT the menorah in the BHMQ,
>it needn't be reflected in Chanukiyos)?

>Why do chassidim in general wear uniforms, each eidah having its own
>slight uniqueness?

>Or why did the yeshiva world slide into their uniform?

Yes but isn't precisely the idea of a uniform to create a sense of us and
them.  That's one of the reasons schools do it - to create a sense of "our
school" versus the "other school".  It creates a sense of belonging, but
part of that sense of belonging is that we are not them.

And then - well take my little street.  On my street (ie about 20 doors
away) lives another Jewish family.  Their oldest is a year older than my
son, and their next one is two years younger (and a third slightly younger
than that).  And these days I rarely see my son on a shabbas afternoon,
because he is always over there playing (when they aren't playing over
here).

And in recent years we have regularly gone there for one of the two sedarim.
A lot also because it is nice for me to have a more traditional Ashkenazi
seder, so we do one at home which is much more my husband's minhagim (with
an admixture of mine) and one that is very Ashkenazi there.  But this year
that family have been blessed with twins, and she said to me, don't be
offended, but I just can't manage to make a large seder this year and have
your family, which was fine - but we figured well, let's invite them over -
OK not for seder, but for a meal at least, given that the twins appear to be
in cahoots so that one sleeps when the other is awake and vice versa.  And
obviously we said that we would not serve them kitniyot, but of course the
plates had had kitniyot on them.  And they talked to their posek, and
apparently it went back and forth (it was a bit complicated, as their posek
had recently passed away, and they had only recently started with a new one,
but two poskim ago apparently the husband had asked whether he could go
somewhere that had kitniyot, and been told no, and while his new posek said
he didn't have a problem in general, because the husband had previously been
told no by somebody reputable, his new posek was not prepared to override
that psak, despite the circumstances of the twins, so they had to decline).

So what it turns out you are advocating here is the creation of an  "us and
them" mentality between my son and his best friends. That is a much trickier
proposition than creating an us and them mentality as a means of binding us
together as against anonymous them or even the kids from the other school
who play in different football teams.

>There is a lot of power to creating a communal feeling and communal
>loyalty. If we relayed our own variant of the theme of Yahadus that
>these unique practices were associated with, some notion of a qehillah
>and its vision to feel attached to, they would bind rather than alienate.

There is indeed.  But that tends to assume that one will be fundamentally
drawing on one's own community for their primary friendship groups.  When
the friendships run the way they do with my son and his friends, to suddenly
be told they are in different communities and should support different teams
feels terribly artificial, and instinctively wrong.  Sure if we lived in the
Sephardi part of town, and they lived in the Ashkenazi one, then the
division would seem more logical.  In charedi circles it is (still) much
more this way - and it certainly is amongst the Chassidic groups.  But the
breakdown in this particular division, especially in the modern Orthodox
community, makes the communal feeling and communal loyalty you are trying to
create seem almost traitorous to the real community that does exist (and
which would instinctively have us helping out the family down the road who
could do with it).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Regards

Chana

On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

> What "heter"?  Why would you need a heter in the first place?  It's not
> your
> chometz, so what difference does it make where it is?
>

Terumat haDeshen 119: Veraui lehorot latet lanokhri michutz labayit matana
gemura veyachzor veyizkeh bahen achar haPessach.

Bach OC448 cites him and Maharil and Beit Yossef sa'if 3 (in the new Tur's
se'ifim) to the same effect. However, since it isn't always possible to
physically move the chametz, Bach suggests selling or renting the place
where the chametz is stored.

Magen Avraham 448:4 echoes Bach in brief, but does give a nod to RZS's
position, saying that me'iqar hadin the sale alone should suffice, as long
as the gentile bears the risks associated with the chametz!

Mishna Verura 448:12 (to OC 448:3) explains the whole thing rather well and
points out that various Acharonim raised two reasons why selling or renting
the place is a necessity (for the first reason even me'iqar hadin, against
Magen Avraham): first of all, as a qinyan, since a gentile otherwise needs
to do meshicha to acquire movable property, and secondly because otherwise
the sale really isn't serious (michzi kechemtzo shel Yisrael vgam lo badil
minei).

Mauadim lessimcho,
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/

* When we Sell Our Chametz, We Mean It (humor)

* Are Freedom of Religion and Human Rights in Conflict?

* Warum gingen unsere Vorfahren ins ?gyptische Exil? (Audio-Schiur)

* Warum heilt G?tt nicht die Amputierte

* Culture, a Foundation for Torah?
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The following is from page 118 of the article at 
http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/pesach/RJJ-soft%20matzah%202014.pdf

Rav Shmuel Auerbach related (Orach David, Jerusalem, 5771, page 106)
that his father, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, once asked the well-known
Yerushalayim tzaddik (and son-in-law of Rav Akiva Yosef Shlesinger) Rav
David Baharan what chumrot are appropriate for Pesach and he responded
to eat machine matzah and to eat gebrocht because of oneg yom tov, the joy of
the holiday. (The Chacham Zvi is similarly quoted (see end Sha'arei Tshuva
460:10) that avoiding gebrocht is a chumra that impinges on simchat yom tov).

Chag Sameach!

YL
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Cantor Wolberg wrote:

> The Hebrew Yom Tov is post-Biblical in its present meaning. It
> occurs only four times in Tanakh and has as its meaning the
> literal translation, good day.  In the Book of Esther it occurs
> 3 times: 8:17; 9:19; 9:22 and once in the Book of First Samuel:
> 25:8. It is certain that Esther did not employ the expression
> Yom Tov in a technical sense to indicate a legal holiday. Rather,
> it is designated as a merry day, along the lines of joy and feast.

I remember many years ago being curious about the origin of this phrase,
and was surprised to find that it appeared in Tanach, as CRW wrote above.
At that time, and forwards until reading his post, I never took it to mean
anything other than "holiday".

And I *still* think that "holiday" is the best translation, because I think
it is reasonable to say that *both* "yom tov" and "holiday" carry a
spectrum of meanings dependent on context.

"Holiday" certainly *can* mean a "legal holiday", but it can also refer to
a mere "merry day". I think we would all agree that Thanksgiving Day and
Independence Day are genuine holidays, but I would point out that the word
"holiday" also appears in the first paragraph of the Wikipedia articles for
April Fools' Day, Boxing Day, Washington's Birthday, and Election Day,
among others. These holidays may be considered relatively minor, but the
word "holiday" is still appropriate.

In the bracha on the second cup at the Seder, we thank Hashem for taking us
"from ayvel to yom tov". I will concede that this context does not
necessarily refer to a full-fledged legal holiday, but it sure means a lot
more than merely "I had a good day."

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
The #1 Worst Carb Ever?
Click to Learn #1 Carb that Kills Your Blood Sugar (Don't Eat This!)
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5350067a466be67a367dst03vuc

How is machine matza more oneg yomtov then hand matza?
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R' Micha Berger wrote:

> There is a lot of power to creating a communal feeling and
> communal loyalty. If we relayed our own variant of the theme of
> Yahadus that these unique practices were associated with, some
> notion of a qehillah and its vision to feel attached to, they
> would bind rather than alienate.

R"n Lisa Liel responded:

> Dressing differently is a far cry from being deprived of foods
> your next door neighbor is permitted to eat.  Say what you want,
> but you will /never/ make that not feel alienating to children.
> Rationalization is strictly an adult vice.  If we care about
> keeping our kids frum, we won't make the mistake of thinking
> that they will accept our rationalizations.

I would like to suggest that you are actually agreeing with each other.

The trick is to teach the kids that we avoid these foods, WITHOUT any
feelings of deprivation or alienation (and I don't know what
"rationalizations" RLL refers to). If we feel deprived, then our kids will
pick up on that. But if we revel in the restrictions, they'll pick up on
that too.

When I grew up, I was part of the Jewish minority, living among a Christian
majority. There were many foods which were off-limits during Pesach, but as
much as I wanted them, I still understood that I couldn't have them. Once
when I was around eight, the boy next door shared his candy bar with me,
and I later remembered that it was Pesach, and I felt awful for having
eaten non-Pesach food. Sure, I felt deprived - but I was proud of it. Is
that such a difficult feeling to instill into the Ashkenazi minority living
among a Sefardi majority?

I live in a community where most people (myself included) eat Chalav
Hacompanies, but a minority does not. We try to go out of our way to
accommodate those people when they are our guests; I hope that I have not
made them feel deprived, and I certainly would object if I saw my kids
taunting the others about it.

I confess, my daughter was happy and eager to accept her husband's minhag
to wait only 3 hours after meat. And I wouldn't mind it myself. But we all
take pride in our individuality and the minhagim or our respective
families. We do joke and rib each other to a certain extent, but it is all
good-natured, and it is hard for me to imagine it being a factor in why
kids go off the derech.

If RLL and RYGB say that it *is* a factor, then I accept their testimony
and will not argue. My point is that I was blessed with parents who gave me
pride in my heritage, and I suspect that RLL and RYGB are talking about
kids who were less fortunate.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Old School Yearbook Pics
View Class Yearbooks Online Free. Search by School & Year. Look Now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/535018ec1888218eb12f4st01vuc

It is one thing to "lower" or to change the observance because the two 
groups merge, or because the Askenazim stop "not eating" at other 
people's homes and start going out to other people's home, including 
their Moroccan neighbor.  That is evolution of religion. It is quite 
another to say "in this generation, it is simply too difficult, we can't 
handle not being allowed to eat something for one week when we see the 
other guy eating it".  That is throwing in the towel.

Ben

On 4/17/2014 8:08 PM, Kenneth Miller wrote:
> Is that such a difficult feeling to instill into the Ashkenazi minority living among a Sefardi majority?

On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 11:13:07PM +0100, Chana Luntz wrote:
: But even according to your strongest source, ie Rav Soloveichik as quoted
: above, it would seem pretty clear that RYBS did not hold of the extension
: you posit that the Rosh's school's mechanism does not work. If shomea
: k'oneh is the only mechanism that works, and we follow it l'chula and
: l'chumra, there is no value to reading along with the ba'al koreh, so
: why bother to do that even l'chatchila...

I'm not sure it follows.

After all, if you're in the middle of saying Shemoneh Esrei when the chazan
starts Qedushah, you can keep quiet and rely on shomei'ah ke'oneh as though
you answered. But no one would question the value of answering Qedushah
when you can!

It would seem that shomei'ah ke'oneh is an inferior qiyum to actual aniyah.

:-)||ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 3rd day
mi...@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Chesed: What is perfectly
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            balanced Chesed?

On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 02:40:47PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: 2) A teshuva from Rav Chaim Kanevsky stating that CI felt that the ikat
: halacha is like R Chaim Voloshin that hezayit is like a modern day olive
: about 1/3 an egg...

These are two different statements. If a modern day olive is 3cc, it is
not 1/3 the volume of a modern day egg.

The CI, for example, holds of the 1/3 ratio, but he obviously did not hold
like RCV when it comes to the actual size of the kezayis. His kezeisim,
even before doubling, are an order of magnitude larger.

:-)||ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 3rd day
mi...@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Chesed: What is perfectly
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            balanced Chesed?

I learned over yomtov that the Moroccan minhag is *not* to read along,
and to call blind men.

Well, this is probably my last Y-mi-ism... Nidah 2:7, vilna 9a.
Yitzchaq bar Yonasan and Rav were sitting when a woman approached RYbY
and asked him about a mar'eh. He wanted to defer, but was declined. "The
one who the questioner came before should answer."

Mar'os in particular is interesting, because more than any other topic
it's an art, not a logical argument.

But what do you make of this? Doesn't this Y-mi indicate (if not prove)
that the point of pesaq is to rule based on legal authority, rather than
to determine halakhah as a pre-existing absolute truth?

:-)||ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 3rd day
mi...@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Chesed: What is perfectly
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            balanced Chesed?

On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 11:13:07PM +0100, Chana Luntz wrote:
: But even according to your strongest source, ie Rav Soloveichik as quoted
: above, it would seem pretty clear that RYBS did not hold of the extension
: you posit that the Rosh's school's mechanism does not work. If shomea
: k'oneh is the only mechanism that works, and we follow it l'chula and
: l'chumra, there is no value to reading along with the ba'al koreh, so
: why bother to do that even l'chatchila...

And RMB replied:
> I'm not sure it follows.

> After all, if you're in the middle of saying Shemoneh Esrei when the chazan
> starts Qedushah, you can keep quiet and rely on shomei'ah ke'oneh as though
> you answered. But no one would question >the value of answering Qedushah
> when you can!

> It would seem that shomei'ah ke'oneh is an inferior qiyum to actual aniyah.

But RAF/RDF's argument is that shomea k'oneh is the only mechanism that
works for kriyas hatorah when you have a ba'al koreh/oleh split. Hence,
they argue, there is a problem of bracha l'vatala with partnership
minyanim. If shomea k'oneh were not the only mechanism that worked,
there would be no bracha l'vatala problem with women being called up
despite there being a ba'al koreh (who might be a man), so long as that
woman followed the Rosh and read along quietly and did not rely on shomea
k'oneh. Similarly there would be no problem if a man was called up even
though a woman was layning, so long as he too followed the Rosh and read
along quietly and did not rely on shomea k'oneh. The only problems that
might arise vis a vis brachos l'vatala in partnership minyanim would be
if we were dealing with the unusual occurrence of a blind woman or man
as olah/oleh (where it may be that the only mechanism you have is shomea
k'oneh). But RAF/RDF postulate that if we have a ba'al koreh/oleh split,
then there are brachos l'vatala by definition occurring in partnership
minyanim - and the only way they can get to that is if they insist that
shomea k'oneh is the only mechanism at play here.

Moed Tov

Chana



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