Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 10

Sun, 19 Jan 2014

• 1. Re: Daf Yomi raises doubts about the mesora (Marty Bluke)
• 2. Re: Daf Yomi raises doubts about the mesora (Micha Berger)
• 3. malachim and bchira (saul newman)
• 4. Re: malachim and bchira (Lisa Liel)
• 5. Re: Chief Rabbinate Says No To Religious Women in IDF (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 6. Re: malachim and bchira (Ben Waxman)
• 7. Re: malachim and bchira (Liron Kopinsky)
• 8. Re: malachim and bchira (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Chief Rabbinate Says No To Religious Women in IDF (Liron Kopinsky)
• 10. 'crime' and kibud (saul newman)
• 11. Re: Chief Rabbinate Says No To Religious Women in IDF (Zev Sero)
• 12. Schools, Yeshivos, and Cell Phone Policies (Prof. Levine)
• 13. Re: Chief Rabbinate Says No To Religious Women in IDF (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 14. Re: Chief Rabbinate Says No To Religious Women in IDF (Lisa Liel)

On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 7:16 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> But there have been historically three models
> (as identified by RMHalbertal...
>     1- Retrieval: All of Torah was given at Sinai, and therefore
>        machloqesin (debates) are due to forgotten information.
>         ...
>
>     2- Accumulative: Torah is built analytically from what was
>        given....
>
>     3- Constitutive: The poseiq (halachic decisor) doesn't discover
>        what's correct halakhah. Rather, part of the definition of
>        "correct" is the poseiq's say-so; Hashem gave them the power to
>        decide and define law....

The fact that there is a fundamental dispute about the nature of dispute
in Halacha is quite disturbing in and of itself. The Geonim hold that
everything, all of Torah was given at Sinai while the Rambam fundamentally
disagrees and holds that there were major parts of Torah that were not
given at Sinai but rather were derived later. In other words, there is
a machlokes what did we get at Sinai, everything or only part. How can
such a fundamental tenet be under dispute? Was there no clear mesora as
to what was given at Har Sinai? If we don't even know on a large scale
basis what was given at Sinai (everything or only parts) how can we
expect to know the nitty gritty details from Sinai?

On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 11:06:13PM -0600, Lisa Liel wrote:
:> Vehara'ayah, the shofetim had their own batei din that often reached
:> different conclusions. They didn't go to beis din hagadol in the BHMQ
:> on everything. Only on things that became looks-like-two-Toros issues.

: I'm sorry, but that's just your own theory. You can't just state it
: as though it's a fact, and you certainly can't use it as a ra'ayah for
: something else.

I brought sources when I first posited it. There were things that the
shevatim practiced differently for millenia. Also, the rule for when
the sheivet's BD went to the national BD hagadol is when they can't
figure out a conclusion. I do not see mention of going to resolution when
two shevatim reach different conclusions.

: I think the answer is that the fact that chunks of mesorah went
: missing due to the oppression and wars was precisely why R' Yehudah
: HaNasi codified the Mishnah....

So you believe what RMH calls the "retrieval model" of machloqes, popular
among geonim. But he proves that the Rambam taught an accumulative theory
of mesorah and the majority of reishonim a constitutive theory. One can't
say with any certianty that the rishonim are wrong. But I also am not
saying you need to agree with my attempt to advocate for one theory (and
moreso, my understanding of the Maharal's variant of it) over another.

The machloqes well predates you and I.

On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 01:54:06PM +0200, Marty Bluke wrote:
: The fact that there is a fundamental dispute about the nature of dispute
: in Halacha is quite disturbing in and of itself...

Why? There could be dispute about the nature of gravity but that
doesn't shake my confidence in our ability to describe how it acts
(F = G m1*m2 / r^2).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is harder to eat the day before Yom Kippur
mi...@aishdas.org        with the proper intent than to fast on Yom
http://www.aishdas.org   Kippur with that intent.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

for  a little later on in Yoma---   how does a malach like Gavriel have
 bchira to defy the ribono shel olam?   thought only humans  had bechira....
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On 1/16/2014 2:54 PM, saul newman wrote:
> for  a little later on in Yoma---   how does a malach like Gavriel have
>  bchira to defy the ribono shel olam?   thought only humans  had
> bechira....

Midrash. Any place you see a mal'ach displaying what looks like bechira,
add "kaveyachol" in.

R'n LL:
There's no prohibition of women bearing arms in the case of a milchemet
mitzvah, which any reasonable understanding of halakha describes the State
of Israel at the current time.
---------------------- 

Is there a war going on right now? 

KT,
MYG

Or get kabbalistic and start talking about broken keilim like with the 
fruit/trees and sun/moon in Breishit.

Ben

On 1/17/2014 4:10 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> On 1/16/2014 2:54 PM, saul newman wrote:
>> for  a little later on in Yoma---   how does a malach like Gavriel have
>>   bchira to defy the ribono shel olam?   thought only humans  had
>> bechira....
> Midrash. Any place you see a mal'ach displaying what looks like bechira,
> add "kaveyachol" in.
>

On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 4:10 AM, Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net> wrote:
> On 1/16/2014 2:54 PM, saul newman wrote:
>> for  a little later on in Yoma---   how does a malach like Gavriel have
>> bchira to defy the ribono shel olam?   thought only humans  had
>> bechira....

> Midrash. Any place you see a mal'ach displaying what looks like bechira,
> add "kaveyachol" in.

I don't remember where I saw this, but one peshat is that the malachim are
"preprogrammed" to act a certain way. Gavriel, as the defending angel of
Israel was preprogrammed to "defy Hashem" in such a situation. The defiance
was itself the ratzon Hashem.

Kol Tuv,
Liron

On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 09:59:22AM +0200, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
: I don't remember where I saw this, but one peshat is that the malachim are
: "preprogrammed" to act a certain way. Gavriel, as the defending angel of
: Israel was preprogrammed to "defy Hashem" in such a situation. The defiance
: was itself the ratzon Hashem.

On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 07:15:54AM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
> Or get kabbalistic and start talking about broken keilim like with the  
> fruit/trees and sun/moon in Breishit.

My planned reply when I saw RSN's post in the moderation queue was
going to indeed find a parallel to the creation of trees and of the
moon. But a more rationalistic bent: The gemara about fruit trees not
tasting like the fruit is about the ideal, the "Intent of the Creator",
vs the reality Hashem made so that we could have a world of striving
for that ideal. (Particularly in that case, where from our perspective
trees are raised to get fruit -- there is a symbol for means and ends
right in the topic the medrash chose to speak of.)

Similarly here, there is an ideal and a real.

Thanks to RBW, I'll add: And I'm not sure that a rationalist mequbal
wouldn't say that's what sheviras hakeilim itself means.

And so I would raise the question: Do Chazal mean something different
when they model real vs ideal with the impossibility of Hashem "changing
his mind" as in the gemaros RLK cites, than when they speak of an angel
doing differently than commanded, as in here? Or more accurately, since
I assume they do (although it is possible to be a stylistic difference
between authors) -- what do chazal mean differently?

Also, it's not a given that mal'akhimm are preprogrammed (shitas haRambam,
among others). There is also the shitah that they simply have no decisions
to make, since they live in a state without taavos, without negios, and
enough perception of the truth not to decide wrongly by error (shitas
haOr Sameiach, among others). When you see G-d's Truth clearly enough,
the choice of Good would be obvious, and not really a choice.

And there is the idea that the nefilim rebelled, which seems to imply a
third shitah in which mal'akhim do actually have and have opportunity to
really exercise bechirah. RYGB suggested on-list in the '90s that this
may dovetail with OS's opinion, if you assume that the OS would say that
when a mal'akh is sent to olam hazeh, he is perforce unable to fully see
The Truth (which might even be the definition of he'elam hazeh -- that
the vision is blocked a particular way), and so the mal'akh's bechirah
does have what to work on, and can end up in error and sin.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Here is the test to find whether your mission
mi...@aishdas.org        on Earth is finished:
http://www.aishdas.org   if you're alive, it isn't.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Richard Bach
: 
: Kol Tuv,
: Liron
: _______________________________________________
: Avodah mailing list
: Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
: http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
: 

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Here is the test to find whether your mission
mi...@aishdas.org        on Earth is finished:
http://www.aishdas.org   if you're alive, it isn't.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Richard Bach

On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 6:23 AM, Moshe Y. Gluck <mgl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> R'n LL:
> There's no prohibition of women bearing arms in the case of a milchemet
> mitzvah, which any reasonable understanding of halakha describes the State
> of Israel at the current time.
> ----------------------
>
> Is there a war going on right now?
>
> KT,
> MYG


There is a high likelihood of their being some type of War (with the
official designation) at any time (see: Iran/Failed Peace Talks etc.) Since
having trained soldiers is obviously necessary, is it a stretch to call the
present time (with rockets fired at israel only yesterday) also a Milchemet
Mitzva?

Shabbat Shalom,
-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2014/01/staten_island_syn
agogues_dilem.html

especially when 'crime'  is  of only the dina dmalchuta variety,  it's not
so clear how kavod

should be dispensed [ or withheld] to the accused/on
trial/convicted/ex-convict.....
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> There's no prohibition of women bearing arms in the case of a milchemet
> mitzvah,

Where is this written?

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

 From http://5tjt.com/schools-yeshivos-and-cell-phone-policies/

    Schools, Yeshivos, and Cell Phone Policies
    By Rabbi Yair Hoffman

    However, just as there are limitations on the conduct of the teacher
    in terms of the degree of punishment that may be meted out, it
    would follow that there are also limitations on what may or may not
    be taken away (permanently) or destroyed. Modern poskim have ruled
    that a school may not permanently take away an item from a student,
    and that their responsibilities vis--vis the item in question are
    equivalent to that of a shomer chinam?an unpaid watchman (see Kisaos
    lBeis Dovid, siman 90). Thus a fish tank policy may have some serious
    halachic (and legal) issues.

    There may also be limitations on whether the school may search the
    violators phone as well, from both a legal and halachic point of view.
    Legally, for a public school to search a students phone is probably
    a violation of the Fourth Amendment (see New Jersey v. T.L.O., 469
    U.S. 325, 1985). Halachically, it may be a serious problem as well.

    Many people might point to the cherem dRabbeinu Gershom (Rabbeinu
    Gershom ben Yehudah, 9601040) that banned the reading of peoples
    private letters as the source for a halachic prohibition. There is
    actually another source as well. The Rama in Shulchan Aruch Choshen
    Mishpat (154:7) rules that it is forbidden to look through a window
    inside someone elses courtyard on account of the damage that one can
    do to him. It is clear from this ruling that even without the issue
    of the cherem dRabbeinu Gershom on reading the letters of others,
    there is a right to privacy in halachah as well.

    <Snip>

    In conclusion, we must realize that even though schools practically
    stand in the place of parents in regard to educating our children,
    from a halachic point of view it is not so simple that the school has
    unlimited authority. The school certainly has the right to confiscate
    the phone and to punish the student by not giving it back for a while,
    but it seems clear that the phone must ultimately be returned. Looking
    at the contents of the phone is also quite problematic from a halachic
    point of view. Of course, the student should not violate the rules
    of the school, nor should a decoy phone be used.

See the above URL for more. YL

MYG:
Is there a war going on right now?



 

R' LK:

There is a high likelihood of their being some type of War (with the
official designation) at any time (see: Iran/Failed Peace Talks etc.) Since
having trained soldiers is obviously necessary, is it a stretch to call the
present time (with rockets fired at israel only yesterday) also a Milchemet
Mitzva?
-----------------



Yes, it is a stretch, if you're using it be matir things which would be
assur in a non-milchemes mitzvah situation. Not to say that it isn't
necessary to have trained soldiers, just that it isn't wartime now. 

 

KT,

MYG

 

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On 1/19/2014 11:50 AM, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
> R' LK:
>> There is a high likelihood of their being some type of War (with the
>> official designation) at any time (see: Iran/Failed Peace Talks etc.)
>> Since having trained soldiers is obviously necessary, is it a stretch
>> to call the present time (with rockets fired at israel only yesterday)
>> also a Milchemet Mitzva?

> Is there a war going on right now?

Yes, it is a stretch, if you're using it be matir things which would
be assur in a non-milchemes mitzvah situation. Not to say that it isn't
necessary to have trained soldiers, just that it isn't wartime now.

http://www.inn.co.il/Forum/Forum.aspx/t608568
I don't understand how anyone can claim this isn't a time of war.
War doesn't require an official declaration. We have a nation attempting
to destroy ours. In the words of the Maharal MiPrague, "Ein lecha
milchama gedola mi-zu".

Lisa


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