Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 207

Tue, 24 Dec 2013

• 1. Yosef, a despot or a brilliant strategist and educator? (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi, its Kosher!)
• 2. a couple other updates on the "lifting the circuit breaker" episode. (Ben Waxman)
• 3. Non-Shabbos Greetings (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Non-Shabbos Greetings (Ben Waxman)
• 5. Re: Yosef, a despot or a brilliant strategist and educator? (Liron Kopinsky)
• 6. Dairy Orange Juice (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi, its Kosher!)
• 7. Exercise, Torah Learning and the Chofetz Chaim (Prof. Levine)
• 8. Not every yerei Shamayim is a good sofer. (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Is Executive Functioning a Middah to be cultivated? (Yonatan Kaganoff)
• 10. Re: Yosef, a despot or a brilliant strategist and educator? (Ben Waxman)
• 11. Re: Not every yerei Shamayim is a good sofer. (Zev Sero)
• 12. for the record (saul newman)
• 13. Re: for the record (Lisa Liel)
• 14. Re: for the record (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: for the record (Zev Sero)

May I add for further consideration - When the Jews exited Egypt in
triumph, they were all circumcised, they had to be in order to participate
in the KorBan Pesach. So the Jews, who had abandoned circumcision in order
to be like the Egyptians, were coerced just before leaving Egypt, to
undergo circumcision. Keep in mind that these were the best 20% of the
Jewish population.

When, in our 210 year Egyptian exile, did we decide to abandon BeRis Milah
in order to be like the Egyptians?

Our Sages explain this occurred immediately following the demise of Yosef.

Yosef was the first of YaAkov?s children to die. His brothers were still
alive and heading the extremely wealthy, protected, well established and
comfortable Jewish community when the Jews declared war on their
traditions, abandoning Beris Milah.

We are astounded that Yosef?s position as Egypt?s Chancellor was not filled
by his children or family, and shocked that our ancestors could so
aggressively abandon and revile circumcision, the ancient family ritual.

Perhaps the people?s confidence in their leaders had eroded. Perhaps they
saw that their leaders would not get along with their own brother. Perhaps
they noted that petty, selfish arguments prevented them from uniting and
succeeding Yosef as the CEO? Perhaps they said this is all a load of
nonsense?

Perhaps this sounds like what we are hearing today?
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a couple other updates on the "lifting the circuit breaker" episode.

1) The Chief Rabbi, Rav Lau, stated that Rav Rosensweig made a mistake 
given that the Mishna Bruria ruled that this type of action can only be 
done by a non-Jew.  I find that declaration to be problematic. Halacha 
didn't stop with the Mishna Bruria.  Shmirat Shabbat gives a list of 
poskim who felt that a Jew can break an issur d'rabbanan with shinui if 
there is a choleh sh'ein bo sakana. However:

2) Speaking with a local rav, I brought up that perhaps the issue is the 
machloquet between the Mishna Brura and Chason Ish: if the end result is 
exactly the same, than does doing the action in a different manner 
constitute a shinui? Therefore if someone lifts a circuit breaker with 
his elbow, it would still be a straight d'rabbanan.

3) Rav Melamed allowed someone to add fuel to his generator because one 
of the families receiving electricity from the generator has a three 
week old baby.

Ben

I paid for my coffee on Friday, and the lady behind the counter wished
me a Good Shabbos. But, she's not Jewish. (Not unless someone proves
that one of the shevatim of Malkhus Yisrael ended up in the Philipines.)

I was about to lightly reply in kind, and then wondered -- is
it appropriate? Given that it's assur for this woman to actually
celebrate Shabbos, should I be wishing her a good one? I mean, I doubt
it's technically *assur*, but in terms of the statement of sharing
something that is inherently not for sharing...

FWIW, I ended up responding, "Enjoy the day off!" -- which for someone
working in a kosher bakery open the other 6 days each week, it certainly
is.

Gut Voch!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The greatest discovery of all time is that
mi...@aishdas.org        a person can change their future
http://www.aishdas.org   by merely changing their attitude.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Oprah Winfrey

Is the halachik definition/pratei dinim of Shabbat the only definition? 
I mean, is there no cultural aspect to it? I've heard Arab Israelis say 
it to each other. Of course in halachic terms the phrase is meaningless 
for them (even if one looks at the world in eyes other Brisker eyes), 
but is that all there is?

Ben

On 12/22/2013 12:41 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> I was about to lightly reply in kind, and then wondered -- is
> it appropriate? Given that it's assur for this woman to actually
> celebrate Shabbos, should I be wishing her a good one? I mean, I doubt
> it's technically *assur*, but in terms of the statement of sharing
> something that is inherently not for sharing.

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 3:05 AM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

> On 11/12/2013 1:38 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 10:38:42PM -0500,T6...@aol.com  wrote:
>>
>> : Yosef let people keep 80% of what they produced.  Halavai we should
>>  have
>> : such "socialism" in America, with only a 20% tax rate!
>>
>> Vayiqbotz es kol okhel -- 341:48
>>
>
> On 11/12/2013 1:55 PM, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
>
>> What was interesting to me this year is that during the 7 years or
>> plenty, Yosef also taxed them at only 20% (and that was taxation).
>>
>
> Where do you see this? "Vechimesh" means "he should mobilise", not
> "he shouldfifth".


See Radak, Chizkuni, Rashbam, and Ibn Ezra.
In distinction to Rashi and Unkelos, who say like you. I think R' Saadia
Gaon agrees with your take too, but I'm not positive.

Kol Tuv,

-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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In response to the proposition that orange juice is Michig [see below] if
processed on a dairy pasteuriser, I draw your attention to the following:

Rabbi Binyomin Forst, page 243 of 'The Laws of Kashrus' ArtScroll Halacha
Series writes, "Some are of the opinion that while orange juice packaged by
a dairy company may be used after eating meat it should not be used with
meat."

He explains in the footnote, "It seems reasonable [to assume] that the
machinery was used for milk production within the previous 24 hours [this
is a reason to deem the juice to be "dairy" and thus prohibit using it
after meat]. However, even though the heat of the cleaning process required
by law is not sufficient to effect kashering, some companies do clean the
machinery with a heat of Yad Soledes Bo [meaning that in fact the machine
is Kosher and will not taint the orange juice with any milky flavour]. Thus
the possibility exists that the orange juice is not dairy at all.
[permitting the juice to be used not just after but even together with
meat]

Thus since in the opinion of the Shulchan Aruch Nat Bat Nat is permitted
[an absorbed flavour that is reabsorbed - in this case milk flavour
absorbed into the machinery which in turn is exuded from the machinery and
absorbed into the juice, is no longer significant] we may be lenient in
cases of doubt. [the doubt is that the machine perhaps was not used that
day and is therefore not tainted by dairy flavour. Since the risk, at the
worst, is that the juice is Nat Bar Nat, this weak prohibition should be
ignored in circumstances of doubt] In addition when all the orange juice is
combined it contains more than sixty times the milk that was absorbed into
the machinery.

Incidentally one who considers non-Jewish milk to be Chalav Akum and
prohibited by decree of our Sages may not drink this milk ever since this
will be a case of Nat Bar Nat De'issura." From the article *The Complex
Story of Pareve Orange Juice* at http://tinyurl.com/kpcnqqgMany consumers
would be quite surprised to know that the pareve-certified orange juice and
iced tea that they enjoy are often manufactured on dairy equipment, and
that this equipment was kashered to be rendered pareve for the production
of these beverages. The fact is that the pasteurization and filling
equipment used in dairies for milk is ideal for all types of drinks, and
dairy factories therefore frequently produce a wide variety of non-dairy
beverages. There are actually very few types of pareve beverages that can
be assumed to be manufactured exclusively in pareve plants; fruit juice,
punch, iced tea and coffee, plus lemonade ? whether made as ?national?
brands or as ?heimishe?, Jewish brands ? are all prone to be processed on
dairy equipment which was kashered under the supervision or direction of a
kashrus agency.

See the above URL for more. YL
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See http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/exercise_torah_cc_v2.pdf

There are many ways to exercise and some may be preferred over 
others,  but the bottom line in that all of us should exercise to 
preserve out health.  And none of use need to be reminded,  I am 
sure,  the preserving one's health is a mitzvah.

YL


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 From today's Hakhel email Bulleten.

Question: I am willing to spend as much money as 
necessary to obtain the best STA?M possible. 
Should I search for a sofer who is a big yerei 
Shamayim (very God-fearing individual) or one 
with a very beautiful kesav (handwriting)?

Answer: This is an extremely difficult question 
to answer. Let us examine the case for both sides 
in order to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion.

?         The argument for choosing a sofer with a beautiful kesav:

1)      Who are we to judge someone?s level of Yiras Shamayim?

A Rav told me that he was once asked by his 
father (also a well-known Rav) to buy tefillin 
parashiyos for him. After some effort, he 
narrowed it down to two sofrim ? one sofer was a 
bigger Yerei Shamayim while the other had a nicer kesav.

The Rav?s father said immediately, ?I?ll take the 
nicer kesav.? He then proceeded to explain: ?How 
do you know that Sofer A is a bigger yerei 
Shamayim than Sofer B? This is something that is 
impossible to really know. However, if Sofer B 
has a nicer kesav, that is a fact.

2)      Even when buying STA?M from a great yerei 
Shamayim, you might not be getting what you want.

For instance, certain sofrim who may be 
considered by many to be true yerei Shamayim 
sometimes can form their own halachic opinions. 
Some may not understand that when someone is 
spending ?mehudar? money, they would like to 
receive a product which is mehudar according to 
all recognized opinions, not just the sofer?s.

3)      Not every yerei Shamayim is a good sofer.

I was once asked to check the beginning of a 
Sefer Torah which was in the process of being 
written by a ?mekubal?. Unfortunately, the Sefer 
Torah was a complete disaster! Aside from the 
kesav, which looked almost childish, there were 
many halachic problems with the letters as well. 
The overall appearance was so awful that when 
part of the Sefer Torah was shown to a particular 
Rav, he blurted out, ?Why, it?s not even fit to dance with on Simchas Torah!?

The way to judge this mekubal favorably is by 
recognizing that he was very old, and apparently 
did not realize to what extent his writing, which 
was once on par with average sofrim, deteriorated.

In any event, these are three reasons why 
choosing a sofer who is a big yerei Shamayim may 
not necessarily ensure that you will receive a quality STA?M product.

----------
Dare one suggest that not every yerei Shamayim is 
a competent posek and/or is competent to give advice on various matters?  YL

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Is Executive Functioning a *Middah *to be cultivated?

I posed this question to a member of the Aishdas society and he thought
that, in 5774 it was.

More information about Executive Functioning can be found here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_functions

It is super-trendy in pedagogy, management and psychology these days.

But would it fall under *tikkun ha-middos*?

Yonatan Kaganoff
Mashpia at The Puppet Yeshiva
www.puppetyeshiva.com
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At the end of Vayyiggash it says about Bnei Yisrael that they "took 
possession of Goshen and grew and multiplied".
At the beginning of the Shemot, the pasuk says the same thing but also 
adds in the word "v'shratzu". Although Koren translates this as 
increased abundantly, it is also has a very negative connotation. 
However this (v'shratzu) happened after all the brothers died.

IMO their moral decline can't be blamed on the brothers but it was their 
own responsibility.

Ben

On 12/21/2013 1:23 PM, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi, its Kosher! wrote:
>
>
> Perhaps the people?s confidence in their leaders had eroded. Perhaps 
> they saw that their leaders would not get along with their own 
> brother. Perhaps they noted that petty, selfish arguments prevented 
> them from uniting and succeeding Yosef as the CEO? Perhaps they said 
> this is all a load of nonsense?
>
> Perhaps this sounds like what we are hearing today?

It's true that not every yerei shomayim is a good sofer, but a yerei
shomayim who isn't a good sofer should improve his skills or not practise
safrus!   On the other hand it is *vital* that a sofer be a yerei shomayim.

In the story presented in the paragraph numbered 1, the rabbi had already
narrowed his search down to two sofrim, *both* with excellent ksav and
unsullied reputations for yiras shomayim, and in that case it may have
made sense that the final decision should come down to the objectively
verifiable ksav, not the unverifiable yiras shomayim.

But consider the extreme example, where you are comparing two sofrim, one
with ugly ksav but who appears to be a great yerei shomayim, and a baki in
the relevant halachos, while the other one has beautiful ksav but appears to
be a kal.  In such a case there can be no question that one must go with the
yerei shomayim, because a sofer is like a shochet, in that one must trust him.
Suppose a sofer has a pair of tefilin or a mezuzah that he knows to be possul,
but the psul is impossible to detect; if he has no yiras shomayim why wouldn't
he sell it?  Why would he send it to the genizah and throw away all the work
he put into it, and the money he could make from it?  It takes yiras shomayim
to do that; to know that even if the customer never finds out in this life,
Hashem will know, and the customer will find out when he comes to the Next life.
Better buy from the yerei shomayim, and then give it to the other one to check.

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

in an offlist  discussion one   contends-----


It is assur to treat C rabbis as equals and colleagues in any public
setting or  to treat C temples as if they are shuls -- to give shiurim in
them or any other reason


------- this concurs with longstanding  haredi  theology and  practice, and
in much  [some? all?] of  MO ...  but   is  anyone aware  of  a printed
tshuva  stating the halacha  is otherwise ?  was  this original  halachic
ruling  time-  or  metzius -   dependent  in any  way?
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On 12/23/2013 6:37 PM, saul newman wrote:
> in an offlist  discussion one   contends-----
>> It is assur to treat C rabbis as equals and colleagues in any public
>> setting or  to treat C temples as if they are shuls -- to give shiurim
>> in them or any other reason

> this concurs with longstanding haredi theology and practice, and in much
> [some? all?] of MO... but is anyone aware of a printed tshuva stating
> the halacha is otherwise? was this original halachic ruling time --
> or metzius -- dependent in any way?

What metziut do you see as being different? What metziut could *be*
different?

On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 10:29:38AM -0600, Lisa Liel wrote:
: What metziut do you see as being different? What metziut could *be*
: different?

50 years ago, it was less clear just how far C was michutz lamachaneh.
Entering the building to teach Torah could be seen as at least a partial
endorsement, a statement of "it's not so bad".

Today, kiruv is commonplace. Going to a C-nagogue to teach real Torah
is known to be simply sharing our common morashah. It's even known to
be somewhat subversive in that they know our hopes are to bring them
closer to our team.

In practice pesaqim that allow giving such shiurim are common, and kiruv
kollelim run programs in C-nagogues and R Temples all the time.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The worst thing that can happen to a
mi...@aishdas.org        person is to remain asleep and untamed."
http://www.aishdas.org          - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 24/12/2013 11:29 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> What metziut do you see as being different? What metziut could *be*
> different?

The question is whether there is -- or ever was -- any inherent issur in
it, or whether the "gezera" was always purely consequential: doing so
will have bad consequences, so it's assur, but if circumstances change
and it will not have those consequences then it becomes muttar.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name



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