Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 39

Sun, 13 Mar 2011

• 1. Re: soft matza (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: chezi kaddish before mussaf (Zev Sero)
• 3. Koach deHeteira Adif vs. Chumeros (Prof. Levine)
• 4. soft matza (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Re: soft matza (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: chezi kaddish before mussaf (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 7. Re: mitzva for a goy (Arie Folger)
• 8. Re: Koach deHeteira Adif vs. Chumeros (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Koach deHeteira Adif vs. Chumeros (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Koach deHeteira Adif vs. Chumeros (Rich, Joel)
• 11. Re: Koach deHeteira Adif vs. Chumeros (Micha Berger)
• 12. Davening Sefer Korbanos (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: mitzva for a goy (Eliyahu Grossman)
• 14. Soft Matza - Is there anything in Halacha (Meir Rabi)
• 15. Re: Davening Sefer Korbanos (Zev Sero)
• 16. Re: Davening Sefer Korbanos (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: Davening Sefer Korbanos (Zev Sero)
• 18. 30 page article in PDF format by R. H. Schachter on Dina deMalchusa (Hankman)
• 19. Re: 30 page article in PDF format by R. H. Schachter on Dina deMalchusa (Micha Berger)

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 07:01:57PM -0800, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
: http://www.softmatza.com/ is there anything in halacha that assurs this 
: type of matza  for ashkenazim?

This is a perennial. I asked RHS, he told me it was fine for me to do
so. In past iterations, we also proved that Ashk too ate softer matzos
until probably the 18th cent or later. Matzos were larger and thicker,
non-soft would have been inedible slabs (thicker than hard-tack, and
even that is hard to bite off), not crackers.

I started in 2003, to give my kids something to talk about when they
got back to school -- and thus to be more alert during the seder.

Other, minor, advantages:
- you can do a literal korekh, wrapping the matzah around the maror
- no problems with pas haba bekisnin -- it's definitely bread and not
  a cracker. Not that even Seph would question making a hamotzi on
  cracker-matzah on Pesach.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Every second is a totally new world,
mi...@aishdas.org        and no moment is like any other.
http://www.aishdas.org           - Rabbi Chaim Vital
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 10/03/2011 2:56 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 09:17:04PM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
> : In many shuls on Shabbat morning the Rav gives a talk after the sefer
> : Torah has been put back in the ahron...

> Totally different question... Why isn't it a Qaddish deRabbanan as it's
> closing the derashah?

Because the drasha is a very late addition, stuck in that position for
convenience.  Perhaps it would make more sense to have it after musaf,
before "Tana d'Vei Eliyahu", where Sefardim often have the rabbi give
a dvar halacha.

On 10/03/2011 3:16 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> RYBS held that it's better to continue wearing one's tefillin through
> mussaf than to not put them fully away before davening. At least, if
> one isn't saying "Keser".

If one isn't saying kesser there's no real reason to take them off at
all, and IIRC the Taz says not to.

On 10/03/2011 2:17 PM, Ben Waxman wrote:
> Yet on Rosh Chodesh, we say Ashrei and U'ba L'zion, the STZ says kaddish,
> everyone takes off their teffilin and then some people start and some wait
> for the STZ. Why doesn't the STZ just wait to say chezi kaddish as we do
> on Shabbat?

That is indeed how it's done in L.  I'm surprised it isn't done in your
community.

Note: when, as in this example, kaddish is said after a break, the chazan
should say some pesukim quietly, because kaddish must follow something.

On 10/03/2011 3:41 PM, Allan Engel wrote:
> My Rav recently changed the procedure slightly. On the rare occasions that
> he speaks before Mussaf, the kehillo stops after Mizmor LeDovid, then he
> speaks, then they resume with Uvnucho Yomar followed by kaddish.

> I haven't asked him why he changed the previous practice.

So that the kaddish should not come out of thin air.

Personally, if I'm the chazan for musaf, I start again aloud from
"Hashivenu", for this reason.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

At 06:31 AM 3/11/2011, R. Micha wrote:

>RYL asked me in a posting to Areivim about "kashrus lemehadrin" and
>implicitly about chumeros in general. How can this be a good idea if
>"koach deheteira adif"?
>
>Yet AFAIK, RYL doesn't eat qitniyos on Pesach.

I do not eat Kitniyos on Pesach.  I follow Ashkenaz 
minhagim.   However, I do eat gebrokts!   I follow Ashkenaz minhagim! >:-}


>"Koach deheteira adif" is often misunderstood.
>
>The idiom is used when there is a machloqes tannaim that has two possible
>cases, one has more reason to be lequlah than the other. The makhloqes
>will be phrased as being about the more machmir case, because it's more
>important to show how meiqil the tanna who is matir actually is being.
>
>It's only used twice, Berakhos 60a and Beitza 2b. As Rashi puts it
>in Beitza ("deheteira adif leih"), "tov lo lehashmi'einu koach divrei
>hamatir".
>
>Chumeros (in the sense of going beyond what one believes is mandatory)
>are a powerful tool for avodas Hashem. Like all powerful tools, that is
>all the more reason why one has to be careful to use them wisely.

The following is from http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=28626

The Rov should always remember that many Shaalos which are brought to 
him are dealing with peoples lives! Therefore, he should always keep 
in mind that Koach DeHeteira Adif (the ability to rule on the side of 
permitting when necessary, shows halachic strength not the contrary), 
this is especially so in our generation, when chumra can sometimes 
lead to kula. Notwithstanding this, the Rov must himself be 
meticulous in all aspects of Halocha.

Yitzchok Levine 
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At 06:31 AM 3/11/2011, R. Saul Z. Newman wrote:

>http://www.softmatza.com/ is there anything in halacha that assurs this
>type of matza  for ashkenazim?

I do not know about you, but 2-4 matzos for $20 is a bit steep for me.

At http://www.softmatza.com/about.asp  it says, "People from 
Ashkenazic lineage have a minhag (tradition) to eat Matza that is as 
thin as possible, and therefore should consult their Rabbi to 
determine if they are allowed to our thicker Matza. You can see from 
the pictures that each one is about 1/3 - 1/2 of an inch thick."

This matza looks like pita bread to me. :-) YL


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On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 09:02:09AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
> I do not know about you, but 2-4 matzos for $20 is a bit steep for me.

They sell per pound an item made from the same ingredients as Ashkenazi
crackers, so you're buying the same number of kezeisim. $20/lb
is about going rate. The trick is dividing each matzah into more
pieces. Personally, I tear it into strips for koreikh, then laying
romaine lettus on it and rolling it up.

> At http://www.softmatza.com/about.asp  it says, "People from Ashkenazic 
> lineage have a minhag (tradition) to eat Matza that is as thin as 
> possible, and therefore should consult their Rabbi to determine if they 
> are allowed to our thicker Matza. You can see from the pictures that each 
> one is about 1/3 - 1/2 of an inch thick."

Which is exactly what Ashkenazim did before they invented those
hole-punching rollers. So, while some rabbanim will simply "play safe",
it's hard to call this a bonafide minhag. Maybe playing safe WRT chameitz
is itself a true minhag...

> This matza looks like pita bread to me. :-) YL

Looks like a large pita too, from the outside. Obviously no pocket.
It's dryer and tastes more like what you're used to for matzah,
though. Probably due to haste and ash on the oven floor.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
mi...@aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l

R' Ben Waxman asked:
> Yet on Rosh Chodesh, we say Ashrei and U'ba L'zion, the STZ says
> kaddish, everyone takes off their teffilin and then some people
> start and some wait for the STZ.

I have not noticed any significant number of people who start right after
they've removed their tefillin. If anyone does, I presume it is because
they daven slowly and want to make sure that they'll finish their silent
musaf in time for kedushah. But the vast majority wait for the gabbai to
bangon the bimah so that everyone can begin in unison for Tefilah Betzibur.

> Why doesn't the STZ just wait to say chezi kaddish as we do on
> Shabbat?

My understanding is that in EVERY case, Kaddish (of every variety) marks
the END of something. If so, it must come immediately after something is
concluded. Thus, on Shabbat it is said right after the rabbi's speech,
which was not idle conversation but presumably contained Divrei Torah. And
on a weekday Rosh Chodesh, the kaddish follows Uva L'Tzion. But to say
kaddish after we remove the tefillin makes no sense to me.

> This order makes sense especially if you look at chezi kaddish
> as Rav YBS saw it, as the vehicle which joins individuals into
> a minyan.

I have not heard of this before. Can you give other examples? I've always
perceived the chatzi kaddish after Ashrei at Mincha, and after Birchos
Krias Shema at Maariv, as concluding the introductory portion of the
service. Are you saying that RYBS saw it instead as an introduction to
Shemoneh Esreh? Interesting...	But what would he have said about the
chatzi kaddish after Torah Reading on Monday and Thursday?

Akiva Miller

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RET asked:
> puzzle - which mitzva today can a goy do that a Jew cannot?

Bring a korban? (you wrote *today*)

-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Audio-Schiurim: Die Schomre-Thora-Vortr?ge zu Gebet
* Multimedia Shiur: Was Esther Slow on the Uptake?
* The Onset of Death in Halakha IV: In the Media
* Le psaume 92 - cours multim?dia en fran?ais
* Is Outsourcing Ethical?
* Kalendernotiz: Neue Vortragsreihe zum Thema Gebet

On 11/03/2011 8:55 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> At 06:31 AM 3/11/2011, R. Micha wrote:

>>> "koach deheteira adif"?

>> "Koach deheteira adif" is often misunderstood.

> The following is from http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=28626

And therefore?    That's a makor?!


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 08:55:55AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
>> RYL asked me in a posting to Areivim about "kashrus lemehadrin" and
>> implicitly about chumeros in general. How can this be a good idea if
>> "koach deheteira adif"?

>> Yet AFAIK, RYL doesn't eat qitniyos on Pesach.

> I do not eat Kitniyos on Pesach.  I follow Ashkenaz minhagim.   However, 
> I do eat gebrokts!   I follow Ashkenaz minhagim! >:-}

Which are simply chumeros that one generation adopted at the objection
of those who were arguing that we preserve the old religion. The fact
that it happened something to the order of a millenium ago doesn't erase
the fact that it did happen. If it was okay then, why not now?

>> "Koach deheteira adif" is often misunderstood.
...
>> It's only used twice, Berakhos 60a and Beitza 2b. As Rashi puts it
>> in Beitza ("deheteira adif leih"), "tov lo lehashmi'einu koach divrei
>> hamatir".
...
> The following is from http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=28626

I should add that if you think about it, the actual concept as used by
Chazal argues in FAVOR of chumeros. Documenting the extent of the divrei
hamatir is more important. Doesn't that imbalance presume that we require
MORE proof before accepting a qulah than before accepting a chumerah?

The fact is, there is a limited list of dinim where we say things like
"halakhah kedivrei hameiqil be'eiruvin". Because the exceptions
need specific listing.

But this is a shift in topic. We moved from whether there is value to
accept upon oneself things they know to be beyond baseline halakhah
(e.g. not using whisky aged in stam yeinam sherry casks) to whether
one should assume the baseline itself is stringent or lenient.

The word "chumerah" is ambiguous that way.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Between stimulus & response, there is a space.
mi...@aishdas.org        In that space is our power to choose our
http://www.aishdas.org   response. In our response lies our growth
Fax: (270) 514-1507      and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM)

>>> "koach deheteira adif"?

>> "Koach deheteira adif" is often misunderstood.

> The following is from 
> http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=28626

And therefore?    That's a makor?!


-- 
Zev Sero   
==================================================
I think that this is an issue where the original term had a specific
technical usage but has become used as a catch phrase for a broader concept
(like chadash assur min hatorah ?)
KT
Joel Rich
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On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 11:11:45AM -0500, Rich, Joel wrote:
: >> "Koach deheteira adif" is often misunderstood.

: I think that this is an issue where the original term had a specific
: technical usage but has become used as a catch phrase for a broader
: concept (like chadash assur min hatorah ?)

That only works post-facto. IOW, invoking a sloganeer's use of koach
deheteira adif (can we use KDA now?) is not proof that the new meaning --
better not to impose new chumeros -- is valid.

For that matter, many in O would object to the validity of "chadash
assur min haTorah" as the CS's usage invalidated a change in worship or
reemphasis in thought like Chassidus, the Yeshiva movements (Lithuanian
and contemporary), TIDE, Mussar, MO...

In any case, this slogan doesn't work. As I wrote in response to RYL,
every single minhag was once a new chumerah tha masses took on that
people of his temperament were probably objecting to. What makes today's
innovation any less part of normative process than those done centuries
past?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
mi...@aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l

The Ramban on this week's parashah takes the Rambam to task for his
position on the reason for qorbanos. Afterward the Ramban gives his
own explanation. (Which doesn't seem to fit todah, shelamim, chagiga,
pesach, etc...)

Cheit operates on three levels: machashavah, dibbur and maaseh. So,
the Ramban explains that kapparah also requires operating on all three
levels: Teshuvah is machashavah, vidui is dibbur, and the qorban provides
a physical element.

So now I'm wondering how the Ramban explains "uneshalmah parim sefaseinu"
and the notion that saying seder qorbanos can fill in -- at least in
some measure -- for actually bringing the qorban. After all, the whole
point of qorbanos is that they be maaseh rather than vidui. How is
"uneshalmah parim" add anything over teshuvah and vidui alone?

Gut Voch!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "As long as the candle is still burning,
mi...@aishdas.org        it is still possible to accomplish and to
http://www.aishdas.org   mend."
Fax: (270) 514-1507          - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter

Maybe adjusting the heat in a shul on Yom Kippur? ("Hey, Chris, does it seem
cold in here to you?") Or, in other words, acts of kindness that a Jew is
forbidden due to Shabbat or Chag (although "mitzvah" doesn't seem to be the
right word if we say that a non-Jew only has 7, at least according to
"Rabbi" Wikopedia! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah). 

Maybe any of the hundreds of duties that Jews seek out the foreign workers
here in Israel (most people over 70 seem to have a "Philipini*" living with
them in our suburb, and it isn't unusual for local Jews to seek them out to
do this or that on Shabbat or Chag. 

(Note: This is something I am opposed to, much to my wife's annoyance,
especially that one Shabbat when the main circuit breaker went out and it
would have been so easy to walk across the street and get someone's
"Philipini*" to just flip the switch - the food and temperature was still
ok, just a tad dark! But she lets me have this little quirk of mine!)

Am I close? ;)

Eliyahu Grossman
Efrat, Israel

(* the person may or may not be from the Philipines, but they generally get
that label.)


> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:32:20 +0200
> From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Avodah] mitzva for a goy
> 
>puzzle - which mitzva today can a goy do that a Jew cannot?

 

The Mishneh Berurah, the Arudh HaShulchan and the Shulchan Aruch HaRav all
clearly speak of Soft Matza..
They speak of Matza that is soft like a sponge and can be folded, which need
not be squashed in order to determine the Shiur of a Kezayis.
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On 12/03/2011 7:48 PM, Micha Berger wrote:

> So now I'm wondering how the Ramban explains "uneshalmah parim sefaseinu"
> and the notion that saying seder qorbanos can fill in -- at least in
> some measure -- for actually bringing the qorban. After all, the whole
> point of qorbanos is that they be maaseh rather than vidui. How is
> "uneshalmah parim" add anything over teshuvah and vidui alone?

Akimas sefosov havei maaseh.  When it's possible to bring korbonos, this
is obviously insufficient, but when we have no choice, this will have to
do.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 12:37:35AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> Akimas sefosov havei maaseh.  When it's possible to bring korbonos, this
> is obviously insufficient, but when we have no choice, this will have to
> do.

I fail to see how this relates to the Ramban. According to the Ramban,
the only point of qorbanos is to do an action beyond speech. Dibbur
is already covered by vidui. How does it suffice for anything? Why not
argue that qorban, when impossible, is simply that -- impossible?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 13/03/2011 9:57 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 12:37:35AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
>> Akimas sefosov havei maaseh.  When it's possible to bring korbonos, this
>> is obviously insufficient, but when we have no choice, this will have to
>> do.
>
> I fail to see how this relates to the Ramban. According to the Ramban,
> the only point of qorbanos is to do an action beyond speech. Dibbur
> is already covered by vidui. How does it suffice for anything? Why not
> argue that qorban, when impossible, is simply that -- impossible?

Because it's possible to do *something*.  It's possible to do a maaseh
of sorts; it's not a substitute for a real maaseh if that's possible,
but if it isn't then at least it scrapes in on a technicality.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

Not too long ago, someone posted (I think on Avodah, but maybe Areivim) 
(was it RMB?) a cite to an 30 page article in PDF format by R. H. Schachter
on Dina deMalchusa. I can not find that cite again. If you have that cite
or the post in which it appeared, could you please forward that to me.

Thank you kindly.

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster
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On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 02:01:29PM -0400, Hankman wrote:
: Not too long ago, someone posted ... a cite to an 30 page article in
: PDF format by R. H. Schachter on Dina deMalchusa...

I think I sent you that link off-list. In any case, here is the URL:
<http://download.yutorah.org/1981/1053/735655.pdf>.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha


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