Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 91

Tue, 19 May 2009

• 1. can you identify this book? (Maxi Yedid)
• 2. Re: charity to the rich (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Evaluating the Meshorah (Harvey Benton)
• 4. Waiting to Daven Maariv on Shavuous (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Re: Even More on Not Waiting to Daven Maariv on Shavuous Night (Prof. Levine)
• 6. Re: Even More on Not Waiting to Daven Maariv on Shavuous Nig ht (Gershon Dubin)
• 7. Tikkun Leil Shavuous and Reform (Yitzchok Levine)
• 8. Re: Tikkun Leil Shavuous and Reform (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Waiting to Daven Maariv on Shavuous (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 10. Re: Waiting to Daven Maariv on Shavuous (Prof. Levine)
• 11. Re: Even More on Not Waiting to Daven Maariv on Shavuous Night (Prof. Levine)
• 12. Re: Waiting to Daven Maariv on Shavuous (SBA)
• 13. Waiting to Daven Maariv On Shavuous Night (Prof. Levine)
• 14. Smoking Addiction? (Cantor Wolberg)
• 15. Re: Can I not give to a tzedakah collector if he smokes? (David Riceman)

Hello
In the first volume of Shut Rabbi Akiva Eiger, in the introduction, the sons
of R. Akiva Eiger, R' Shlomo and R' Abraham mention a "science" book. Does
anyone happen to know wich book is it?

Thanks

By the way, I'm new in this list so nice to meet everyone.
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The more usual psak is that this would be a mitzvah perhaps for the
first year of "poverty". There is ni mitzvah to keep a formerly rich
person in his previous status for ever. The mitzvah is to wean him
slowly into the real world.

===========================
Heard this at a recent shiur but there was no source given.  Does anyone
know of one?
KT
Joel Rich

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Evaluating the Mesorah:




The following is information that I have gathered regarding
the viability of our Mesorah.? Please evaluate
on objective grounds whether or not it is good enough for the following 3 practical
purposes. 1. Halacha LeMaaseh (in all cases where Halacha is discussed in the
Mesorah); 2. Accurate enough descriptions of events/stories for us to garner
the correct messages (musar/midos) from; and 3. Physical Metziuses of objects
described in the Mesorah (which may alter our understanding of theses objects
(e.g. keilim) should they have to be re-built bizman HaMoshiach (in case the
originals are not found). 

?

1.Torah Text Authenticity; Many sources indicate our
modern-day sifrei Torahs are not letter for letter, word for word authentic
copies of the original STorah written by Moshe Rabeinu.? (Yerushalmi Taanit
4:2, Soferim 6:4, Tos Shabbas 55b, extensive work by Gil Student, etc,).

2. Torah v. Torah Discrepancies: Count 50 days for the Omer
v. Count 7 weeks; Eat Matza for 6 days v. Eat Matza for 7 days;? Aseret HaDibrot Discrepancies. [All of these
discrepancies are explained away by the mesorah we are currently attempting to
evaluate; but nevertheless, they exist.]

3.Nach v. Nach Discrepancies:? taken from: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.
html


A. 1KI 9:28 420 talents of gold were brought back from Ophir. 

2CH 8:18 450 talents of gold were brought back from Ophir. 

B.? 1SA 31:4-6 Saul
killed himself by falling on his sword. 

2SA 1:2-10 Saul, at his own request, was slain by an Amalekite. 

C.? 2SA 21:12 Saul was
killed by the Philistines on Gilboa. 

1CH 10:13-14 Saul was slain by God.

D.? 2SA 24:9 The
census count was: Israel
800,000 and Judah
500,000. 

1CH 21:5 The census count was: Israel
1,100,000 and Judah
470,000. 

E.? 2SA 24:24 David paid 50 shekels of
silver for the purchase of a property. 

1CH 21:22-25 He paid 600 shekels of gold. 

F. 1KI 4:26 Solomon had 40,000 horses (or stalls for horses). 

2CH 9:25 He had 4,000 horses (or stalls for horses). 

G. 1KI 5:16 Solomon had 3,300 supervisors. 

2CH 2:2 He had 3,600 supervisors. 

H. 1KI 16:6-8 Baasha died in the 26th year of King Asa's reign. 

2CH 16:1 Baasha built a city in the 36th year of King Asa's reign. 

I.? 2KI 8:25-26 Ahaziah was 22 years old when he
began his reign. 

2CH 22:2 He was 42 when he began his reign. 

J.? 2KI 24:8 Jehoiachin (Jehoiakim) was
eighteen years old when he began to reign. 

2CH 36:9 He was eight.

etc., etc.

?

4.Mesorah (zugos, etc.,) as they appears in Pirkei Avos and
in the Rambam.? HB question: When was
Pirkei Avos written?? After all of the
events in it were described? Any possibility that parts could have been added
in after-the-fact to fill in historical blanks??


5.Mishna v. Mishna discrepancies; many.

6.Mishna v. Baraisa v. Tosefta discrepancies (some resulting
in different Halachic interpretations); many.

7.Gemmara re-phrasing and re-editing of Mishnayot (chasurei
mechsora; something being heard/darshened out in the name of someone else,
etc.,) ? ?

8. Talmud Yerushalmi v. Talmud Bavli discrepancies (not only
in received Halachot but in narrative events and stories). 

9.? Gaonim, Rishonim,
Acharonim, Corrections/Contradictions within Shas: R. Akiva Eiger; Gilyon
Hashas.

10. Many known cases of xian (muslim?) censors editing
and/or changing parts of Shas.

11. Zohar Authenticity; many hold that the Zohar (or part of
it) was not authored by the Rashbi, including R. Yaakov Emden (Sefer Mishpat
Sefarim). Some of its concepts go against traditional beliefs, and some
practices (chasidish mostly) were adopted on the belief that it is an authentic
work. (Tzarich Iyun as to halachic applicability were the Rashbi to appear at
Techiyas Hameisim and tell us that in fact he never wrote it.)

12. Many Baal Shem Tov Stories never happened, yet are
repeated world-wide thousands of times a day (and even more often on Shabbas). ?Applicability to Halacha may be nil, except
for perhaps Midvar Sheker Tirchak. HB

?

?

?

?

?

?

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At 05:49 AM 5/19/2009, R. Y. Grossman wrote:

>Yitzchok Levine <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu> wrote:
>
> > It is time for me to begin my annual campaign to try to convince
> > people that there is no reason to wait until after Tzas Ha Kochovim
> > to daven Maariv on the first night of Shavuous.
> >
> > Many may be surprised to learn that it was not the practice in the
> > Ashkenazic world in the time of the Rishonim to wait to daven Maariv.
> > Also, it was not the practice of some Achronim.
>
>But some Aharonim do encourage it (see Taz and Hak Ya'akov beginning
>of OH 494), so how can you possibly say that "there is no reason to
>wait"?  Do you believe that any Minhag instituted by Aharonim is
>automatically invalid?  What about Rishonim? If they had a Minhag that
>didn't exist in Talmudic or Geonic times, should we abandon it?
>
>Yitzhak

I will grant you that I should have chosen my words more carefully 
and written something like, "One need not wait to daven Maariv on the 
first night of Shavuous. There are poskim to rely on if one wants to 
daven early."

BTW, IIRC, it is the TAZ who says that the "custom" of not eating in 
the Succah on Shemini Atzeres is a "minhag boorius."  Yet, many of 
those who insist that one must wait until Tzeis to daven maariv based 
on the TAZ ignore what he says about eating in the Succah on SA.

YL
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At 09:38 PM 5/18/2009, Gershon Dubin wrote:
>They probably learned while waiting for ma'ariv.  Speculation on my part.
>
>Gershon

Does learning before Chatzos on Shavuous night count as learning on 
Shavuous? >:-}

YL
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I thought you were going to ask about bein hashemashos.  Why would before
chatzos NOT count?  Do people in Australia (shekias hachama 5:11 PM ereve
Y"T) hang out until chatzos to learn?

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
To: Gershon Dubin <gershon.du...@juno.com>, avo...@lists.aishdas.org
Cc: Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Even More on Not Waiting to Daven Maariv on  Shavuous Night
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 07:45:50 -0400

At 09:38 PM 5/18/2009, Gershon Dubin wrote:
They probably learned while waiting for ma'ariv.  Speculation on my part.

Gershon
Does learning before Chatzos on Shavuous night count as learning on Shavuous? >:-} 

YL 
____________________________________________________________
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While writing about the history of the Jewish community of 
Charleston, SC, I came across the following. It is from

The Charleston Organ Case by Allan Tarshish, Publications of the 
American Jewish Historical Society, 54, 1965. This article is 
available at no cost at 
<http://www.ajhs.org/referenc
e/adaje.cfm>http://www.ajhs.org/referenc
e/adaje.cfm 
. The quotes below are from this article.

Beginning in 1825 there were efforts on the part of some to introduce 
reforms in the davening at Kahal Kodesh Beis Elokim (KKBE). This 
synagogue was founded in 1749, and, like all synagogues founded in 
America during colonial times, followed the Spanish/Portuguese 
Sephardic ritual.

Beginning in 1841 an organ was used as part of Shabbos and Yom Tov 
services. When the membership voted to have an organ, the more 
traditional minded members of KKBE left and formed their own 
synagogue, Shearith Israel.

Of course, the organ was not the end of the changes that the reformers wanted.

"Emboldened by their control of the congregation and Board, the 
Reform group began to make and suggest a number of other changes such 
as the modification of the Maimonidean creed and various traditional 
prayers and hymns, to the extent that the more moderate Reformers 
within Beth Elokim, although satisfied with the organ, became alarmed 
that things might go too far."

One of the things that the "moderate Reformers" strenuously objected 
to was the attempt to eliminate the saying of Tikkun Leil Shavuous!

"Surely enough, on May 7, 1842, the Reformers, in the words of the 
Traditionalists, wanted "to abolish the long established and time 
honored service on the Festival of Weeks called Tecun [Tikkun], which 
caused great excitement, and was considered too great an innovation, 
even to command a majority of their own party."

I know of many Orthodox shuls that today do not have a public reading 
of Tikkun Leil Shavuous. Is it not a historical irony that we who 
would not even think of having an organ in our shuls are not at all 
disturbed by the elimination of Tikkun Leil Shavuous?

YL



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On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 08:11:52AM -0400, Yitzchok Levine wrote:
: The Charleston Organ Case by Allan Tarshish, Publications of the 
: American Jewish Historical Society, 54, 1965...
: I know of many Orthodox shuls that today do not have a public reading 
: of Tikkun Leil Shavuous. Is it not a historical irony that we who 
: would not even think of having an organ in our shuls are not at all 
: disturbed by the elimination of Tikkun Leil Shavuous?

Not at all. They were disturbed because they didn't know the difference
between ikkar and tafeil. We're better informed. TLS was never even
widespread enough to be a formal minhag. See AhS OC 494:
    On the night of Shavuos, we don't make Qiddush on the cup until it's
    actually night (ad shetehei laylah mamash) because of "temimos".
    As to say: that the sefirah should be complete with temimus.
    And the Chassidim haQadmonim used to stay awake all night as it
    says in the Zohar. Now too many do this, and in the morning they
    go to the miqvah. It is all in memory of Matan Torah.
    The topic of Birkhas haTorah was explained in siman 47.
    On the night of tevilah, one does not postpone onah [for this
    practice].

Clearly not accepted minhag; just something many do in imitation of the
Chassidim haQadmonim as based on the Zohar.

There is also a story (legend?) of the Dubno Maggid and the Gra staying
up all night leil Shavuos. The DM read TLS, and the Gra learned gemara.
At one point, the Gra rebuked the DM for not learning gemara too. (I
think RHM posted this story one year.)

Until my boys expected me to stay up with them, I would wake up for the
kevasikin minyan and learn until lunch. It's a zeikher for Matan Torah --
it's the opposite of oversleeping. It's more hours of learning AND one
is learning while well rested.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 40th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Yesod: When does
Fax: (270) 514-1507      reliability/self-control mean submitting to others?

On Tue, 19 May 2009 06:27:43 -0400
"Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:

...

> I will grant you that I should have chosen my words more carefully 
> and written something like, "One need not wait to daven Maariv on the 
> first night of Shavuous. There are poskim to rely on if one wants to 
> daven early."

I appreciate the reformulation, but I think that you are still too
cavalier and dismissive toward a legitimate Minhag advocated by several
major Aharonim.

Consider an example, from what I'm currently learning: the custom for
grooms and brides to fast on their wedding days.  Rema (EH 61:1) rules
"ve'na'hagu she'ha'hasan ve'hakallah misanin be'yom hupasan".  The
sources are various late German Rishonim (Maharam Minz, Rokeah, Mahari
Bruna).  While the custom is widespread among Ashkenazim, many Sephardim
have not traditionally followed it.  Birkei Yosef acknowledges that
multitudes of German and Polish Jews fast, but then notes that "in Erez
Ha'Zvi and many cities they don't".  Rav Haim Benveniste states that in
Constantinople and Smyrna (Izmir) they don't.  Similar assertions
appear in other Sephardic sources, and some, including Hacham Ovadyah,
maintain that Sephardim should not fast.  There are also some Sephardic
sources that indicate that at least some Sephardim do follow the
custom.  [All sources here are taken from Ozar Ha'Poskim EH 61:10:1-2.]

Would you, then, write without qualification that: "One need not fast
on the day of his wedding.  There are Poskim to rely on if one wants to
eat"?  The point is that some Minhagim become accepted by certain
communities, and members of those communities should not simply say "I
won't bother following this custom; after all, many Poskim and other
communities have not accepted it."

Our custom of praying late on the first night of Shavuous is a
legitimate custom, advocated by some major Aharonim, and followed in
many communities.  Of course, someone from a community that does not
have this custom need not follow it, but for those whose ancestors
and / or current community did / does follow this custom, I do not
think that it is legitimate to say "I don't need to comply, since it is
an invention of the Aharonim, and a controversiol one at that."

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

At 09:03 AM 5/19/2009, Yitzhak Grossman wrote:
>Would you, then, write without qualification that: "One need not fast
>on the day of his wedding.  There are Poskim to rely on if one wants to
>eat"?  The point is that some Minhagim become accepted by certain
>communities, and members of those communities should not simply say "I
>won't bother following this custom; after all, many Poskim and other
>communities have not accepted it."
>
>Our custom of praying late on the first night of Shavuous is a
>legitimate custom, advocated by some major Aharonim, and followed in
>many communities.  Of course, someone from a community that does not
>have this custom need not follow it, but for those whose ancestors
>and / or current community did / does follow this custom, I do not
>think that it is legitimate to say "I don't need to comply, since it is
>an invention of the Aharonim, and a controversiol one at that."
>
>Yitzhak

 From what I see in the US, the idea of a unified community does not 
exist in most places. True, you find it amongst some groups of 
Chassidim, some groups of Sephardim, and in KAJ, but here in Flatbush 
I do not see such a thing in the places where I have davened.

In many shuls some put on tefillin during Chol Moed and others do 
not, and they daven in the same minyan. (A friend of mine told me 
that he davened in the Agudah in Baltimore on Chol Moed Pesach. There 
was a mechitza down the middle of the men's section with those 
wearing tefillin on one side and those not wearing them on the other 
side!}  I see some people putting on Rabbeinu Tam tefillin in shul 
every morning and others not doing this. To me this is not community.

The holding of Sefira is another example. Is there a Brooklyn minhag? 
Of course not. Again in the same shul one sees people holding 
different minhagim.

There are many other things like this. At a kiddush one sees some 
people making kiddush standing and others doing it while sitting.

Indeed, what I see more and more is a mish mash with people changing 
to this or that depending on who they happen to associate with.

So, aside from some well-known exceptions, I really do not see how 
one can refer to a community minhag.

YL
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At 09:26 AM 5/19/2009, Gershon Dubin wrote:
>I thought you were going to ask about bein hashemashos.  Why would 
>before chatzos NOT count?  Do people in Australia (shekias hachama 
>5:11 PM ereve Y"T) hang out until chatzos to learn?
>
>Gershon
>gershon.du...@juno.com


Sorry, I completely goofed!

I meant to write,  Does learning before *Tzeis* on Shavuous night 
count as learning on Shavuous? >:-}

I did indeed mean to ask about bein hashemashos.



Yitzchok Levine 
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From: Yitzhak Grossman 
Yitzchok Levine <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu> wrote:
> It is time for me to begin my annual campaign to try to convince 
> people that there is no reason to wait until after Tzas Ha Kochovim to 
> daven Maariv on the first night of Shavuous.
> Many may be surprised to learn that it was not the practice in the 
> Ashkenazic world in the time of the Rishonim to wait to daven Maariv.
> Also, it was not the practice of some Achronim.

But some Aharonim do encourage it (see Taz and Hak Ya'akov beginning of OH
494), so how can you possibly say that "there is no reason to wait"?  Do you
believe that any Minhag instituted by Aharonim is automatically invalid?
What about Rishonim? If they had a Minhag that didn't exist in Talmudic or
Geonic times, should we abandon it?
>>

The MB and SA Harav who are the leading poskim for most of the Jewish world,
both say to wait.

SBA

I just had a phone conversation with a friend of mine. He says that 
R. Ovadia Yosef talks about davening early on Erev Shavuous and also 
sites many sources, including Ashkenazic ones, that permit it. He 
also says that Rabbi Dr. Dovid Tzvi Hoffman was asked about this 
during WW I when daylight savings time was first introduced in 
Germany. R. Hoffman replied that since it is the custom to count 
sefira before Tzeis (my friend says that this was the practice in 
many places in Europe) then there is no need to wait to daven Maariv 
and make Kiddush after Tzeis on Erev Shavuous.

He is supposed to get me the actual sources.  I do not have the 
seforim he referred to. (He said that R. Ovadia Yosef is particularly 
valuable because "He knows everything and cites everything.")

He also pointed out that Baer in his siddur makes absolutely no 
mention of waiting to daven Maariv on Erev Shavuous until after 
Tzeis. He says his not mentioning this means that this was the 
practice in Europe in most places.

He then made another point which I think is very telling.

There are opinions that allow one to daven early and even make 
Kiddush early. Also, waiting to daven after Tzeis is a D'Rabbonon. 
However, simchas Yom Tov is a D'oreisa. Most people do not enjoy 
beginning to eat at say 9:30. For kids it is particularly difficult. 
Therefore, davening after Tzeis and then beginning to eat late 
conflicts with the simchas Yom Tov of many. How can this D'Rabbonon 
take precedence over simchas Yom Tov?

Yitzchok Levine 
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"Hence, if the poor person is a heavy smoker he should be taught to  
quit smoking
and save the money (in addition to health benefits). However, this  
should be
done gradually and not overnight."

I have seen very frum smokers who claim that they are addicted and  
cannot stop.
Then, like magic, as soon as Shabbos arrives, they put down the  
cigarettes (which, of course, are also muktzeh) and until
havdalah, they don't take a puff.  If they were so addicted, how is it  
that they could immediately stop for 25+ hours.
In addition, many poskim have ruled that smoking is definitely an  
aveirah. In fact, if one's parent asks a child to bring him
(or her) some cigarettes, the child must politely decline (Ish imo  
v'aviv tira'u v'es shabsosai tishmoru; Ani HaShem Elokeichem).
[I find it interesting that following "Ish imo" is "Al tifnu el ha'e- 
li-lim". The elilim can be a metaphor for cigarettes].

ri
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Jay F Shachter wrote:
> This is all true, and in accordance with the words of our Sages, but
> it is not, in my opinion, the whole truth.  I am inclined to believe
> that the economic class of the giver, not just the economic class of
> the recipient, defines what is and what is not tzedaqa.  More broadly,
> the condition of the giver, as well as the condition of the receiver,
> jointly determine whether something is tzedaqa.

Do you have evidence supporting this inclination towards this belief?

David Riceman


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