Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 422

Tue, 16 Dec 2008

• 1. City names after AZ (Dov Kay)
• 2. Re: City names after AZ (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: City named after AZ (Aryeh Herzig)
• 4. Jewish Hyper-sensitivity (Meir Rabi)
• 5. Sh and Levi Killed in anger (Meir Rabi)
• 6. yosef (Eli Turkel)
• 7. Re: : esav (SBA)
• 8. 400 men (nachm...@juno.com)
• 9. Re: Insects in our salads (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 10. City named after AZ (Joseph C. Kaplan)
• 11. Re: City named after AZ (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: Chevra Kadisha Fast Day today, 15 Kislev? (Simon Montagu)

<<1. How are you not seeing the difference between using the original
name of a city, and going along with a change that was made for the
explicit purpose of honouring an AZ?>>
 
I do see the difference.  I was asking another question.  
 
This leads to the obvious question at this time of year as to whether there
is a heter to pronounce the name of Xmas, as opposed to Kratzmach or some
other such corruption.	It is exceedingly difficult to function in the
modern workplace without uttering this word.  The final "t" at the end of
the "Chris" tends to be slurred or omitted anyway.  I wonder if this makes
a difference.  If so, I suppose that "Christopher" might be a problem, but
the shortened form "Chris" alright.  Of course, if the only problem is to
use the six-letter word on its own, without a suffix, there should be no
problem with any of these words.
 
I also noticed that R. Micha spelt the word "Crist" in an earlier post.  Is this in case k'siva k'dibbur dami?
 
Kol tuv  
Dov Kay
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Dov Kay wrote:
 
> This leads to the obvious question at this time of year as to whether 
> there is a heter to pronounce the name of Xmas, as opposed to Kratzmach 
> or some other such corruption.  It is exceedingly difficult to function 
> in the modern workplace without uttering this word.

It seems to me that this is not a problem.  The day itself has become
almost entirely secular, for most people.  Whatever religious aspect is
left has become mitzvat anashim melumadah.  And its very earliest origin
is a yomtov for Hashem anyway (AZ 8a).  But if it bothers you, I find
that it's often easy to use other terms, such as "the solstice holiday"
or "Newton's Birthday".


> The final "t" at 
> the end of the "Chris" tends to be slurred or omitted anyway.

Not slurred or omitted: it's silent, in all dialects of English with
which I'm familiar.



-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

The Divrei Chaim of Sanz would never mention Polish cities because he held 
they were named after Avoda Zora.  He would say "The city that Yankel 
Hoffman (E.G.) comes from".
The only exception was Krakow which, he said, is not named after any Avoda 
Zara.
Chassidim were careful to call his own city Tsanz not Sanz.
Surely you've heard of the Tzeilimer Rav.
Guess what?  There is no such city as Tzeilim.
The actual name is the equivalent of "crucifix" (which is a Tzelem).

Many Satmarar Chassidim distort the name of the city to "Sakmar".
Satmar sounds too much like Saint Mar[ie]

In the Torah itself - Bamidbar 32:38 "V'Eth Nvo V'Eth Ba'al Me'on Mussaboth 
Shem"  Rashi says that this means that the Bnai Reuven did not use the names 
of the cities Nvo and Baal Me'on because they were AZ names and subsequently 
changed the names of those cities.

Gur Aryeh Herzig 

Despite all the above it is indeed proper not to use it, and those who are
careful and have a Jewish sensitivity try to avoid it.

 

 

I remember once an announcement in Oxford shul including directions to the
location of a meeting. Rather than mention the name of the college they said
something like "The third turning on the right after you-know-who
you-know-what".

 

I wonder how we determine what is appropriate sensitivity LifNim MiShuRas
HaDin and what is just bizarre behaviour?

 

How can we know  what is proper "Jewish sensitivity" as though those who are
not particular about saying certain words or wearing certain fashions or
singing certain songs are lacking proper Jewish sensitivity.

 

Perhaps those who claim "Jewish sensitivity" are too sensitive and have
distorted Halacha and are aberrant in their thinking. If we do not have
halcha as an absolute standard then how can we ever determine what is
properly sensitive or just plain old Chossid Shotah and Rasha Arum, people
who certainly do not see themselves as doing anything but that which is
right and proper in the eyes of HKBH

 

 

Meir Rabi

 

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R' Micha notes and asks: Yaaqov avinu understood their position to be anger.
"Ki be'apam hareggu ish..." (Bereishis 49:7)

How does that fit giving their actions a positive / constructive spin?

 

I imagine it goes along the typical Mussar lines of a little too much, like
YaAkov Avinu put in one too many nails inthe box in which he concealed Dinah
i.e. he had an unholy desire to prevent Esav having the opportunity to be
inspired to repent. Similarly here, they were justified but used that
justification as a pretext to express and fulfil unholy ambitions.

 

 

Meir Rabi

 

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<<And in truth, even though all the commentators on the Torah have
already written that the quarrel between Yosef and his brothers was not
a quarrel rooted in jealousy and hatred between them, but it was a
disputed Le'Shem Shamayim over the Ikar Ha'Din, that the brothers ruled
that Yosef was pursuing [Rodef] them and it was therefore permitted to
kill him,>>

Why does the piyut on asarah harugei malchut say that these 10
were the first capable of being a kapparah when the brothers were perfectly
legitimate in their actions and did nothing wrong and don't need a kapparah

-- 
Eli Turkel

From: Micha Berger 
 SBA wrote:
: .. a Parsha Shiur ..by Reb Yankele zt'l, the Pshevorsker rebbe in Antwerp.
: He expresses great astonishment at this Rashbam. 
: 1) Because the Rashbam usually goes for posheter pshat, and
: 2) What is the Rashbam's source for this? 
---
1- Why is the notion that Esav intended kavod, not a threat, a stretch in
the words?
>>

The next pasuk: "Vayira Yaakob me'od vayetzer lo.vayomer im yovoy Esav el
hamachneh ha'achas vehikohu."  See how the Rashbam explains that.

I had another look at the Rashbam today. (BTW, the Chizkuni more or less
says the same thing as the Rashbam.)

Lulei demistafina, I would suggest that the Rashbam is saying that while the
Malochim came back to Yaakov saying that they had no doubt that Esav is
coming with his 400 chevra  to give you a nice welcome,  Yaakov was far
cleverer than them. 
He knew Esav only too well and had plenty reason to be afraid.

KNLAD.

SBA

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 09:11:00PM -0500, Gershon Dubin wrote:
: The 400 men who deserted Esav were later rewarded, per Rashi, in the
: times of Dovid hamelech...

I looked at it and left very confused.

Does Bereishis Rabba (quoted by Rashi 33:16) mean that these 400 people
who slipped away 1 by 1 survived, became geirim, and joined David
haMelekh's camel forces?

They were adults in 2208 and lived to see 2884? Not only that, but at
the age of something more than 692, they were called "na'ar"? Before
they fled Esav's cause they were already "ish", now after the laudible
act and its time for the payoff, they're demoted?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

The Lubavitcher Rebbe, notes that Rashi's version therefore specifically
cites the prooftext of "na'ar", to show that the reward was typological
(Amalek) and not literally the same people. Nehama Leibowitz seems to imply
this too in the Gilyonot, and see Meleches HaKodesh on Rashi.

Nachman Levine


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<The Noda Biyhuda (If I'm not mistaken) suggested as a limud zechus that
"afilu be'elef lo batel" implies that it is batel in more than 1000. The
Mezritcher Maggid is reported to have said that although the Noda Biyhuda
meant it only as a limud zechus, he was mechaven to the way they pasken in
Yeshivah shel Maalah.>

     I have trouble accepting that the Maggid knew any better than the Noda Bihuda what the Yeshiva shel Ma'ala paskens.

EMT


 

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RAM wrote: "I suspect the answer is in his last line there: It just doesn't
feel right. Nowadays, no one relates "Tamuz" to avodah zara, but queasiness
over "Christchurch" doesn't surprise me a bit. "El Salvador" probably
depends on one's familiarity with the Spanish language.

Could it be that we're dealing with a social issue, and not a halachic one?"

I suspect that this analysis is the correct one.  And if it so, it very
well might be that it applies to Mumbai as well.  I wonder how many of us
knew, before this thread started, that the name Mumbai was derived the name
of a Hindu goddess.  I'll be the first to admit that I didn't. I use the
name not to honor a goddess but because I believe in using the names for
cities and countries established by the governing authorities of such
places.  And, if Israel decided that the official English name of Jerusalem
was Yerushalayim, I would expect the New York Times, other media and our
and other governments to respect that decision and use that name.

To be trite:  sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Joseph Kaplan
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kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:

> I suspect the answer is in his last line there: It just doesn't feel
> right. Nowadays, no one relates "Tamuz" to avodah zara, but queasiness
> over "Christchurch" doesn't surprise me a bit. "El Salvador" probably
> depends on one's familiarity with the Spanish language.
> 
> Could it be that we're dealing with a social issue, and not a halachic one?

There are two issues.  One is the din of "lo tazkiru", which is a halacha
and therefore has strict parameters.  It doesn't apply to any name used in
Tanach, such as Tammuz.  It also doesn't apply to AZ that are no longer
worshipped, again such as Tammuz.  It does apply to the AZ for which Bombay
was renamed (whether or not it applies to the city as well).

Then there is Jewish sensitivity, "yisre'elim kedoshim nizharim"; which
covers all sorts of harchakot from AZ, that are not necessarily required
by halacha.  For instance, not kneeling; I'm not aware of any halachic
restriction, but it's something that Jews just don't do.  One of those
things is a discomfort with the names associated with Xianity, even
words like "cross", for which we substitute "tzeilem" or "shesi ve'erev",
etc.  The reluctance to pronounce the full name of Ch'ch is part of that,
not of the actual din.  


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 10:19 PM, <T6...@aol.com> wrote:

>
> But what happened on 15 Kislev (which happens to be my father-in-law's
> yahrtzeit, but I never heard of something else special about that date)?
>  **
>

According to my calendar (`Itim Lebina) it's R. Yehuda HaNasi's yahrzeit.
The Gemara says (Ketubot 104a) that a fast was imposed on the day that Rabbi
died, but I've no idea if this connects to the HK minhag, which I also never
heard of before this thread.
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